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Bramble

What could cause a backward turn?

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I'm a static-line progression student and have just passed my two 15 second and one 45 second deployments. On these three jumps, my task was to start and stop either 90 or 360 degree turns. I'm only doing upper body turns- no center turns yet.

On each jump, I've gotten stable, checked altitude, looked over my right shoulder, dipped my right arm, and...turned left. I just ride the turn left, stop on my heading then dip my left shoulder/arm to go right. What gives??

I haven't asked my instructors because I don't want to give them any reason to have me repeat the jumps :S and because I have been able to start/stop the turns with no issue. I just turn in the opposite direction which I think I'm going to.

I have asked all three instructors about body position and symmetry, and all three said I was very stable and looked symmetrical. Also, the turns weren't real quick, so I don't *think* that I had dropped a knee. Any insights would be appreciated!

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<-- Fellow Newb...

You could be using your legs, which would cause weird things to happen (slow turns, no turns, etc). Also, are you only dipping one shoulder? Get a broomstick and place it on your shoulders while arching on the ground (using one of the creeper things) and practice the turning motion.

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On each jump, I've gotten stable, checked altitude, looked over my right shoulder, dipped my right arm, and...turned left. I just ride the turn left, stop on my heading then dip my left shoulder/arm to go right. What gives??



Wherever your head turns, your shoulders tend to follow. If you're looking over your right shoulder, it may be that your right shoulder is lifting which will initiate a left turn. Dipping your right arm may only partially compensate for this which may be why the turn is slow. But without seeing you jump, it's impossible to tell for sure. Don't go mad with your head, it's a good idea to look where you are going but too much can twist your shoulders in the wrong direction.

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I haven't asked my instructors because I don't want to give them any reason to have me repeat the jumps :S and because I have been able to start/stop the turns with no issue. I just turn in the opposite direction which I think I'm going to.



That's what instructors are for. Use them. The internet is no place to learn to skydive.

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You should really talk to your instructors about it. Unfortunately, the best anyone can do on this forum without witnessing the skydive is guess. Your awareness of your body position in freefall is probably what we would expect a student to have. Also, your instructors will be able to see things that you cannot. Perhaps you can get a video and use it as a debriefing tool with your instructors.

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Hello,
I have been teaching SL students since 1992.
This happens all of the time. the bottom line is, Your legs aren't out and you are backsliding.

If your car is in park and you turn the steering wheel all the way to the right and put it in drive... what happens? you go forward to the right.
but if you leave the wheel in the same spot but flip the transmission into reverse,... what happens? you go backwards to the left. SO....
If you know you have the "right turn" body input in, and it is working backwards, the conclusion is: you have your car in reverse. :)
Stick you legs out to go forward slightly and everything will fall into place.
pPlease arch more too. I've never met a student that couldnt use more arch in their body position. :)

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I had the exact same problem during my SL progression, also my legs were to far apart. My instructor said I was parting my legs like whore ;)
I’m no longer backsliding but still after 75 jumps I have a hard time moving forward. On a 4 way it takes to long for me to dock. With legs completely stretched out (like in a tracking position) I barely move forward. I must be doing something wrong with my upper body, but can’t seem to figure it out.
I have done some jumps with instructors to evaluate my body position, but he simply said it was ok.
Suggestions?

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With legs completely stretched out (like in a tracking position) I barely move forward. I must be doing something wrong with my upper body, but can’t seem to figure it out.



HA! I am working on this same thing and I had a major breakthrough the other day: look at your arms. Are they below your shoulders?

I had the same thing happening and it wasn't until I realized that when I was bringing my arms back to move forward that I was also bringing them down. This caused me to increase my fall rate but didn't do much to give me forward movement.

When I started to sweep my arms back and OUT instead of down, I found that I was able to dock more easily. My instructor told me that i shouldn't have to be in a track to move forward--that I shouldn't have to even use much leg. So if you're having the same experience as me, it's 100% about your upper body.

Ask your instructor or a more experienced jumper to look at your arms when you're trying to move forward and see if they say the same thing.

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I'm just curious what the etiquette is for this. In this case I recounted my own experience, and suggested that they ask an instructor about it. I didn't speak from a position of authority or in any way suggest that my personal experience was even the same as theirs. But is the rule that if you don't have X jumps you just don't speak at all?

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I'm just curious what the etiquette is for this. In this case I recounted my own experience, and suggested that they ask an instructor about it. I didn't speak from a position of authority or in any way suggest that my personal experience was even the same as theirs.



Except, you did. "So if you're having the same experience as me, it's 100% about your upper body."

There is a huge variety of ways that new skydivers can be giving themselves problems with all aspects of FS, you only know the ones that have happened to you so far. You are just not in a position to offer a potential diagnosis or solution. There will be plenty of time to teach in future, this is a time to learn.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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I appreciate your feedback. I'll try to make it more clear that I am speaking of my own experience and not theirs in the future. I agree that this is a time to learn--my intention is not to teach. However one of the ways that people learn is by having a dialog and sharing their experiences. That should be encouraged :)
To continue in the spirit of learning, and to try to return the thread back to the OP's question, what, in general--not in my case, not in the OPs case--but in general, what kinds of common ways do new skydivers create problems for themselves in this area?

Share some of your experience and speak about some of the common ones, so that we have something to compare against our own experience, through which we can ask more and better questions of our instructors?

It goes without saying that this forum should not be the primary source for answering these questions, but speaking at a higher level, what are some of the common ones?

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But is the rule that if you don't have X jumps you just don't speak at all?



IMO, there's small number of people who you try not to piss off. They do have the numbers but they freaking know about it. So, keep your numbers for whuffos - speak your mind when "sure" and get ready for backfire.
What goes around, comes later.

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I’m happy to read about other people’s experience and advice (including yours). I’m not going to trust advice based on a jump number claim in a profile anyway.

Guess I’ll have to pay for some more coaching (from a different coach this time). Not much help in thumbs up while my body position still suck…

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You might be backsliding during the turn (but it would imply your spine isn't straight and legs uneven and pretty heavily). That's the simplest explanation - if not, then you need legs and spine coaching anyway.

for backsliding - do these in this order, even if you don't think each is necessary:
1 - Knees together more (no matter where you are starting)
2 - Toes out (keep them out and 'feel' the push from the air)
3 - toe taps - make sure they are lined up
4 - arch
5 - relax
Try your turn again.
(pretty standard and needed sequence I teach for AFF and Mantis coaching)

For goofy legs and spine
1 - Knees together more (no matter where you are starting)
2 - Toes out (keep them out and 'feel' the push from the air)
3 - toe taps - make sure they are lined up
4 - arch
5 - relax
Try your turn again.
(look familiar?)


Don't hide your roadblocks from your instructors - likely having someone decent go up with you and look at your body and also be a still reference point and you can diagnose this in one jump. (or the tunnel :D)

If you are stable and under control, then they wouldn't bust you back to an earlier learning jump. But you still have to demonstrate turns and axis control for your A license.


...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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With legs completely stretched out (like in a tracking position) I barely move forward.



I've seen flexible people, especially girls, with "too good" an arch, with their shins angled way up from the horizon. If their lower legs are pressing on the air in a normal position, then extending them straight out (which is relative to the upper legs) doesn't add much more push on the air.

That may or may not have anything to do with your issue.

Remwha:
Your post looks good for various ways to get someone to think about and recognize their leg position, and keep both legs the same. But the one about knees more together -- that may not work as advice against backsliding?? Bringing legs more together allows more of an arch to happen, if someone is trying to arch, and is sometimes taught as a modern technique to backslide.

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Not to take away from anything anyone else said, and I admit I'm not experienced enough to do so anyway....

It took me 5 attemps and 3 different techniques before I learned to turn but now that I found out what works for me I can turn almost exactly how I want to (talking about only a few degrees of tolerance).

My good friend and coach showed me a technique where I simply dip one arm straight down 90°, elbow still bent, straight down - where my forearm would be right in front of my face if I was looking down that is.

Another coach told me this is more of an advance technique some coaches prefer not to show students until they're sure the student is ready but hey... it worked like a damn charm for me!!

The other thing that is helping me imensely is the use of an RW suit I aquired, and most of the people I've talked to agree that jumpwear makes a world of difference, especially in learning to fly, and like a static line, the jumpsuit is something you can jump without later on when the skills have come along further.

I'll be jumping with my suit for some time to come before I take the "training wheels" off. :$

_______________________________________

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