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Bramble

What could cause a backward turn?

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I have to change position on the backsliding thing.

The car analogy by another poster doesn't pass the physics (sorry VegasJoe). A more apt analogy for the car thing is belly vs back flying - which is true, the same body position with the wind hitting your back vs your front does make a turn go the other way. Not true for forward vs backwards movement when in freefall. try it directly in the sky with the eyes closed (start a backslide for a couple seconds, and then hold it and do an upper body turn to the right - you'll backslide and also rotate clockwise simultaneously) and then watch the vid.

However, correcting the basic body position and getting the spine and legs symmetrical usually fixes about everything.

So (this is to JackC1), for whatever reason, when Vegasjoe has his students straighten their legs, it works likely because the actions needed to extend legs cleans up the body. I think finding what works for whatever reason is what makes guys like VJ excellent instructors. And that's what matters - even if I disagree with his physics, I'll still accept he gets results and try to figure out why without the mockery (though, I know you guys are just having fun with each other).

ALL BETS ARE OFF in this discussion IF THE Student's backslide is SO BAD that they are essentially vertical.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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Rehmwa:
Your post looks good for various ways to get someone to think about and recognize their leg position, and keep both legs the same. But the one about knees more together -- that may not work as advice against backsliding?? Bringing legs more together allows more of an arch to happen, if someone is trying to arch, and is sometimes taught as a modern technique to backslide.



I have no issue with this observation - when I teach mantis backslide, I definitely tell the student to put those grippers together (knees together) with the other inputs - it's very effective.

However, if knees are wide - the hip joint will not allow any type of good arch. It's called bone on bone impingement. Almost every skydiver around can benefit from a narrower stance. Especially newer students who sit wide almost by reflex due to the adrenaline.

However, the OP will really need to do something to get into a clean basic arch before anything else. Arms are easy - I use this sequence to get legs squared up.

(He really needs to get observed directly by someone - like, I don't know, his instructor or coach? Or at least a decent belly flyer.)

and, frankly, if he's counter turning to the upper body input - it's not backsliding - it's normally something in the torso or legs twisted wrong.

aside - I also teach box turns (like Cat B) to emphasize lifting the other elbow rather than digging down the turn side elbow - it keeps the shoulders more squared up. FWIW

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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I haven't asked my instructors because I don't want to give them any reason to have me repeat the jumps



WORST reason EVER!!!!

Why have an instructor if you are not going to use them?

Learning to skydive from the internet is a BAD idea.

AFFI, TandemI, SLI.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Not sure if this was mentioned because I did not red all the posts (I got tired of reading through the debate about who should or should not give advice). I myself have low jump numbers but I know what worked for me.

Talk to your instructors and see what they say first, secondly if it's available to you I would suggest getting some tunnel time in with coaching. You have a great visual reference the whole time to see exactly how your body is moving through the air, video to debrief with to see how your body is being positioned, and a coach standing there that can tell you exactly what you are doing wrong in real time so that you can adjust your body position accordingly. Just my .02

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if he's counter turning to the upper body input - it's not backsliding - it's normally something in the torso or legs twisted wrong.



I've seen multiple students in the tunnel moving their legs at the same time as their arms without even realizing it. Even when I point it out, people don't believe they are doing it until you show it to them on video. I've not sure what exactly the OP is doing, but I agree it is either legs or spine. I think it is more likely to be legs, but who knows?

If I were coaching the OP, I'd encourage a 1-on-1 jump with video, and then a video review by someone who knows what they are looking at. Skydive U coaches are great for this.

- Dan G

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Thanks for all of your input! I'm two jumps away from solo status, so I'll be able to try fine tuning those jumps soon! I start center turns during this next jump, so I'll see if dropping a knee will help me turn the way I'm looking. I'll also pay more attention to my legs.

BTW, I find it very valuable when other new skydivers share their experience. I read their stories the same way I do with all of yours- I think about it, see if what is said rings true, and ask my instructors about anything that seems contrary to what they are teaching me. I do the same thing with everything that I read from experienced skydivers, skydiving articles, books, etc. However, excluding the posts from those who actively teach students, sometimes newer skydivers are more able to relate to the issues of learning to fly your body- the more experienced skydivers sometimes can't remember what the learning experience was like! Please don't discourage new people from asking questions or contributing to conversations.

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I feel the same way about peoples experiences, whether they're young, old, new, experienced, good, bad or indifferent. We've all got different talents and skills and it takes all kinds.

Discouraging people isn't always the answer, though we should all probably filter what we read on the internet.
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Discouraging people isn't always the answer, though we should all probably filter what we read on the internet.



And thats the problem.... People don't know what they don't know.

I can't tell you the number of times I have had an AFF student debate with me about some bit of "advice" they "learned" from the internet from some guy with a cool user name and 10 jumps when the student tried to self diagnose an issue.

Several times I have had to ask the student to quit reading the damn internet for advice.... It really only hurts the process.

Once I just flat out refused to jump with a student that wanted to argue how the dude with the cool user name seemed to give a better solution than the one I was proposing. After talking with the Chief instructor we told the jumper to either listen to us, or have the dude with the cool user name do her AFF jumps.

And as for taking skydiving advice from the internet.... People don't know your issue, they do not SEE the problem and can only go off your best explanation.... And remember you are HAVING A PROBLEM and therefore by definition do not really know what is going on.

So they take your questionable explanation of the problem, try to understand it without being able to see it, then try to communicate via writing a complex solution to a problem they really don't know, and then you have to understand the solution to the problem they don't know and understand the solution even though you had a problem in the first place.....
sheesh!!!! That is a recipe for a disaster!
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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so I'll see if dropping a knee will help me turn the way I'm looking



Worst idea EVER. You could also just end up flipped over on your back. Plus, which knee do you plan to drop to turn what direction? You do know that it is not just dropping a knee that does anything, but a much more complex move? I can drop a knee and sit still, or drop the same knee and turn either direction.

Your plan is not well thought out and could just INCREASE your problems.

Why not just listen to your instructors instead of trying to self diagnose yourself on the internet? Do you routinely go into your Dr's office with a treatment plan already planned out, or do you listen to the Dr?

Advice on technique should be gotten from a coach or an instructor.... It is fine to listen to advice about fear etc from newbies... But I'd bet the instructor also knows those answers as well.

Maybe I am just stupid.... But I tend to think the INSTRUCTORS know more about skydiving than people with just a few jumps.

You don't see too many instructors giving technical advice to STUDENTS over the internet... And there is a damn good reason for that.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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> so I'll see if dropping a knee will help me . . .

At your stage that is very unlikely. It's like a first jump student thinking that dearching will solve some of his freefall stability problems. (Which it can do in a few situations, but 99.9% of the time, a first jump student who dearches goes unstable.)

You'll be tending to fly with your knees down until you fine tune your body position, so don't try to make that worse.

If you want a good drill to learn better turns, lie on a creeper and put your feet on the edge of a couch. Push against the couch with your feet to move you left or right while maintaining a good body position. The same action works in the air.

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And as for taking skydiving advice from the internet.... People don't know your issue, they do not SEE the problem and can only go off your best explanation.... And remember you are HAVING A PROBLEM and therefore by definition do not really know what is going on.



Considering that you have given advice on these forums in the past, to follow your advice you should quit giving advice.

Catch 22

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Considering that you have given advice on these forums in the past, to follow your advice you should quit giving advice.



Find me giving technical advice to someone elses student.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

The nature of this and all message boards is that there will always be bad advice and hundreds of reposts because people want to ask specific questions about themselves or just talk about themselve in general. And that's kind of taking the easy road. The harder way would be reading previous posts and trying to relate that to the readers situation.

This isn't a perfect system in car forums either. Most people don't want to sift through so many threads and posts to maybe find an answer so they ask a specific question. Haters just make things worse there too. Two wrongs never make a right.
_______________________________________

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Well said!

I did end up talking to a couple of instructors yesterday, and the best they could come up with is that I may not have been raising my opposing shoulder enough. One suggested that I experiment with keeping upper body still, and only dropping a knee to make turns. I've been able to show that I can purposefully get unstable, then restabalize (back flip) so I don't think they are worried about the kind of instability that a previous poster mentioned. Anyway, isn't that the purpose of the solo jumps? To try to refine how to fly your body? To practice your new skills?

On a side note, up until jump 15, I was having trouble landing my parachute- I felt like I came in to fast and piled into the ground each time. I asked every instructor, and the advice I consistently got is "you have to learn to feel it". A brand new instructor with around 250 jumps came on, and I asked her too. She listened to what was going on, agreed with what the other instructors where saying, then asked how far I had to pull a toggle to get a response. When I showed her, she realized the brake lines on the rig I was jumping was too long for me. Brilliant. Put me on a smaller canopy with shorter lines, and I have stood up all subsequent landings. I find forums like this valuable because there are people who can think outside of the norm and provide insight. I'll take the abuse from those of you that dissaprove on the off chnce that I might get another flash of insight from someone! :)

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