0
CHRCNF

If I'm ever in freefall with you and you lose consciousness would you rather me...

Recommended Posts

Quote

On students I always deploy their main if possible.


How come?

It seems to me that in the situation where a jumper is unconscious and you're in a position to either pull main or reserve, the point is to pull the handle that is most likely to result in a greater chance of survival.

So the way I see it is:

If you pull the main, say 98% of the time it deploys fine, 2% of the time it doesn't. Say further that in that 2%, half the time (1%) the jumper wakes up, and takes the appropriate action and half the time (s)he doesn't (1%). So that means 99% of the time, when you pull the main, things work out. 1% of the time (call that X) it doesn't work out.

If you pull the reserve, say 99.5% of the time it deploys fine. 0.5% of the time (call that Y) it doesn't.

So if X is greater than Y (i.e. pulling main is likelier to mess up than pulling reserve), then you pull reserve. If Y is greater than X (i.e. pulling reserve is likelier to mess up than pulling main), you pull main.

Now, obviously I made all those numbers up, but being that:

X is the chance of the main messing up AND the jumper not waking up to cut away and pull reserve

and:

Y is the chance of the reserve not deploying correctly,

it would seem to me that X is greater than Y, and therefore one should pull reserve.

Or am I missing something?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Anything is better than nothing.

But the reserve is the best bet... Less likely to mal, more gentle flight characteristics... etc.

Main is better than nothing, but most of the people I know would jump canopys that would not be a good idea to deploy and land unconscious.

Waiting for the AAD?????? Really????? I'd rather you not just assume a person has one and then trust it to work.

Now, don't blast past your own hard deck.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm assuming that the majority of students Billvon deploys are simply unaware, and not unconscious. Therefore the main is likely just as docile as their reserve, and when they have a canopy above their heads, they will (hopefully) go back into awareness, and be faced with a situation they're better prepared for (i.e. open main).

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have been knocked silly on a jump before. Right on exit, the inside guy launched really hard for some reason on a head down flower and put my head into the wing. I didn't go out, but I did go limp for a bit trying to regain my thoughts.

Was fortunate enough that one of the other jumpers on the dive was an AFF instructor, and already holding on to me from exit. She flipped me over and our freefly jump became a belly jump. Towards normal pull altitude I was able to opt myself to my main.

If I wasn't stable and wasn't awake, I would prefer my reserve over my velocity which just will be another big ass problem for me if I am not deployed stable. If you're not an AFFI and trained on how to flip someone over, get them stable, and pull for them and maintain stability into deployment (which is gonna be hard and also normal AFFI procedures would really fuck you if you were on a velocity at that point) going for reserve is a much much better idea, but make sure you don't meet their pilot chute as it goes into deployment or you might end up unconscious yourself.
~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
>>On students I always deploy their main if possible.

>How come?

Because on most students their main is about as docile as their reserve. (And because they are generally conscious, just distracted.) Worst case, they're going to continue to be freaked out/unaware all the way down and not be able to steer their canopy; in that case, the main will generally land them about as well as their reserve. And all things being equal it's better to be under a main than under a reserve.

But if it's someone with a small rig, and the two canopies are a Katana 107 and a PD126R, they are going to be better off under the PD reserve if they have to land it with no inputs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

On students I always deploy their main if possible.

The one time I had to do it on an experienced jumper I deployed their reserve, because I did not know what kind of main they had.


Ah, so you've been there too.:D

In the little time I had to make a decision, I went with the main. It was handy, it was close, and it was somewhat of an AFF instructor reflex. Also, I wasn't sure how incapacitated Jim was. When/if he woke up, would he be pissed to be under his reserve instead of the main? I know, dumb thing to think of, but the thought was there. :S:D

For me, I'll take either, but my reserve is a little bigger (200 vs. 150 main.)

And with students, I agree with using the main. Almost always same size or bigger.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Because on most students their main is about as docile as their reserve. (And because they are generally conscious, just distracted.)



Ah, I see.

But if the student or whoever else were unconscious, would you pull reserve, even if the main and reserve were equally docile?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


But if the student or whoever else were unconscious, would you pull reserve, even if the main and reserve were equally docile?

Are you wondering about the inherently greater reliability of the reserve?

I feel most student rigs have a main canopy close to the same reliability as the reserve. Even unstable, even with line twists, the main is very likely to deploy correctly on those rigs. Certainly more reliably than just hoping the AAD does its thing in time.

As the next poster said, though, push come to shove, deploy whichever one you can get to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Probably the main deployment is going to be easier than reaching under for a reserve deployment. I agree that the reserve is going to be more docile for most up-jumpers so I just wanted to throw in the detail that reaching under to pull silver might not be all that easy.

-Michael

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just for sake of fun argument only.... lets say I pull the main, the dude still craters in and becomes badly damaged, the relatives come back and sue saying shouldave done blah-blah... that ever happened ?
Myself would personally( or relatives) given the dude a big case of beer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Just for sake of fun argument only.... lets say I pull the main, the dude still craters in and becomes badly damaged, the relatives come back and sue saying shouldave done blah-blah... that ever happened?

Wouldn't that totally suck?[:/] I can see that happening in this day and age.



Quote

Myself would personally( or relatives) given the dude a big case of beer.

Which dude, the craterer or the pullerer?:S:P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

Just for sake of fun argument only.... lets say I pull the main, the dude still craters in and becomes badly damaged, the relatives come back and sue saying shouldave done blah-blah... that ever happened?

Wouldn't that totally suck?[:/] I can see that happening in this day and age.



Quote

Myself would personally( or relatives) given the dude a big case of beer.

Which dude, the craterer or the pullerer?:S:P



Yeah that would TOTALLLY suck... but I would still take my chances.

If I see someone out for the count... I want to at least give them a chance at further life. I am not going to HOPE they have an AAD. I would still go for their reserve.

I know I would hope someone goes for my reserve.. its a BUNCH bigger than my main.... and being unconscious... more survivable with a zero input landing under my reserve with the toggles still stowed would have to cause less carnbage to my already old and decrepit body that has been broken a few times before.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Again, I'll just say...

I fly a velo-90 and I have a cypres and a 126 reserve. If I'm unconcious and someone deploys my main there is virtually zero chance that it will deploy correctly and result in a survivable landing. There is a high chance that it will slow me down below cypres activation speeds and prevent it from deploying my reserve.

I know it wouldn't be malicious, but it would be functionally similar to flying over to me and turning my cypres off in freefall.

Now, if you deploy my reserve it could still result in a worse situation than a cypres fire (e.g. if the extra altitude allows my reserve to fly into a lake and I drown) but those situations are somewhat pathological compared to the probability that the extra time under canopy allows me to come to and land safely or that the aad might not have worked for some reason. So, if possible, deploying someone's reserve if they're unconcious would generally be a nice thing to do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[

Which dude, the craterer or the pullerer?:S:P



Oh it would be the puller no matter what. Its kind of like some of the cases last year where jumper may have had cardiac on way down. Anybody that helps out the guy in distress really deserves a reward. Hey they gave the guy an extra chance. Puller deserves beer at minimum, if that ever happens to old fart me... I buying the guy/girl his choice of fancy rig, no questions !.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

Also I'd like to point out that you have possible chance that if you deploy reserve, that your main could deploy too.


I'm puzzled. How would that happen in these kinds of instances?



I've seen it happen when the person had a hard pull, had to go for reserve, next his main coming out.
From when reserve deployed it made main container lose and pin popped out

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

If I'm ever in freefall with you and you lose consciousness would you rather me pull your main or go silver? Or let your AAD do the work?



Reserve for sure.

Landing a 99 cross-brace while unconscious might preclude ever regaining consciousness. The main ia a bad idea.

The reserve, OTOH, is a 218 7-cell that would likely result in survival - if not landing without further injury.

The reserve is (or at least should be) sized and packed for emergencies. When you only have one shot, yank silver.


BSBD,

Winsor

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Need to put in poll what ever handle you can get. :)



nonsense - people keep saying this......the poll assumes you have the option to choose - there's no inconsistency - saying pull what ever handle you can get is a non-vote.

It's not like if someone can ONLY get the main, that they'd refuse to pull it "well, he wanted me to pull the reserve, but I couldn't reach it, so I assumed he wanted me to just let him go and die. too bad, the main hacky was right there." :S

Always Pull my reserve if you have the time and the option.

{It pretty much goes without saying - pull the main if that's in reach and the reserve isn't - but anyone that need that clarification is too stupid to skydive}

I think the 3rd option for AAD is pretty much a vote for reserve also - for people that I think aren't skilled enough or altitude aware enough to make the save without killing themselves or hurting me even worse.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0