Malfunction/Cutaway & Ground Crash Video

[piisfish 135]

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It's a GoPro, what's the big deal with the snag thing, even if that tiny thing ever snagged it most likely would be ripped of the helmet during the cutaway, I don't see a big deal with that.

do you know how the GoPro was mounted on the helmet ?
If yes, please describe
If no, please refrain to affirm/suppose such things in technical forums and keep suppositions in bonfire or speakers corner. (it is not an order, it is a wish of mine)

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[jimmytavino 16]

so you KNOW that you're skyhook equipped ( which is DESIGNED to draw your reserve AWAY ) and you still waste time to shed the helmet.....

wouldn't your head be Down ? looking at handles, and as such.. NOT likely to get "tangled" with any of your gear???


yet time gets wasted,,, fussing around to un clip the helmet.... But then NOT shedding the helmet entirely..

SO NOW how about this scenerio???

The now LOOSE helmet, leaves your head..at the moment of main canopy release.... floating UP and behind you,,, and flirting with NOW interfering with the deploying reserve....
You have just Increased the chances of a problem.. NOT decreased...

I know of very few camera people who would intentially LOSE their camera helmet,,,,, as a PRELUDE to performing a cutaway....
WTF???
camera people have had tons of safe cutaways... without first dumping thousands of dollars worth of video equipment..

I have always thought that IF something snagged, THEN lose the helmet.. and NOT screw around with the head gear... just "IN CASE".....
you oughtta try to take your time when packing....and not be in such a hurry "to make a call".....

jmy

PS vortex.... your "critique" of CandDo.... was waaay off, was rude, and pretty much a Personal Attack... and was indicative of how much Many here still need to learn, when it comes to accepting fair minded criticism. which is intended to save your ass..... when everything hits the fan...

jt

[stratostar 5]

Wow, so many low time/jump numbers experts on here and in the sport these dayzzzzzzz. Fucking morons!

Ridestrong = DGIT!

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[tdog 0]

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I put both hands on my cutaway to pull, it is how we were taught in AFF. I have a Skyhook and I could feel my reserve opening as I put my hand on the 'D' ring.

My recommendations:

Then Pull IT!!!! Why? Next time the RSL might not work. You want the "memory" of pulling it every chance you get (and if you are lucky it will only be a few times in your life).

My first reserve ride was around 700 jumps... It was on a real old borrowed rig with no RSL, with a BASE canopy packed like a reserve/BASE canopy as the main.... The LAST thing I was thinking on the hop and pop was, "this is going to mal." But it did... I owned at the time a skyhook equipped Vector.... Suddenly, building that muscle memory of pulling both handles paid off because I did not even think about waiting to see if the RSL worked on the borrowed rig.

[JohnnyMarko 1]

Cheers to you for starting the 1000th thread for bashing sub 200 camera jumpers!

[apt3studiodiver 0]

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But then...

I have a cigar once in awhile.
I haven't worn a condom with every chick I've slept with.
I sometimes drive over the speed limit.
I've drank expired milk.
I don't always turn off ALL electronics on the airplane when traveling.

Given my experience I will comment on one thing in this thread..

I've drank expired milk = gross

Overall great advice so far guys. A few friends that went through AFF with me last year (not yet at 200 jumps) are currently swapping around a goPro. I was asked If I would wear it to get them on vid during a jump and I declined. Im too busy learning other things and there is PLENTY to learn. There is a lot I dont know and that they dont know yet and things that we dont know that we dont know yet.

I see it along the lines of getting a drivers license sure your excited to get it when your 14, sure you can probably drive a car at 14... but you shouldn't for probably some very good reasons that maybe a 14 yr old isn't aware of yet. Being patient wont kill you, being impatient may. I fully intend on skydiving well into my Golden Years which leaves plenty of time to learn all sorts of cool stuff along the way, no need to hurry.

www.apt3studios.com
www.musicpromotiononline.com
www.internetcafegaming.com
D.S. # 4321

[Sangi 0]

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Depending on where the mount failed, it might continue to pose a snag risk after failure.

You mean when the reserve deploys some broken part that is still on connected to the sticky tape mount can snag with the reserve?

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do you know how the GoPro was mounted on the helmet ?
If yes, please describe

Small plastic rectangular mount with a sticky tape on the bottom of it glued to the helmet and then the top mount (with a camera attached to it) is snapped into the bottom one (can be taken on and off at any time, the camera).

The plastic should break on a cutaway during a snag, however the sticky tape is very powerful and hard to get off..

Kinda of a rough description from how I remember the mount and stuff..

"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

[NovaTTT 1]

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How do I learn/know these things?.... by reading posts from you guys.

This is a real question? Dude, you learn from and need to talk to your S&TA, your instructors and the old-timers and upjumpers at your DZ.


Then:

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I have a Skyhook and I could feel my reserve opening as I put my hand on the 'D' ring.

So you went from a poor-packing induced mal to shedding your helmet (screwed up procedures, indicative of lack of training, awareness and experience), to a two-handed cutaway and got your hand onto the silver handle as fast as the Skyhook deployed, and with the awareness that the reserve was deploying and therefore decided to not pull it?

Even if I believed you could beat the Skyhook, I know beyond doubt (from your postings) that you do not have the awareness you're describing.

Listen to the voices of experience; there are people here trying to help you. That means they're trying to help keep you from harming yourself and/or others.

You should get your head out of your ass, lay the ego aside (we know you're cool, man, you're a jumper) and slow down.

It will all be good if you learn to take it easy and take it as it comes.

Many don't live to learn, you know.

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[davelepka 4]

You do realize that your arguments for how unlikely it is that the GoPro will create an actual snag hazzard are actually helping the arguemtn against jumping them with low jump numbners, right?

You might be 100% right that the GoPro would just shear off in the case of an entaglement, which is good, but the fact is that it became a factor in this cutaway, and the speed at which the OP 'took care of business'.

That's the whole point. The camera adds a distraction, another factor (if only in the users mind) to deal with in the case of an emergency.

In tersm of 200 jumps, I'd go out on a limb and say that when the OP doubles his jump numbers and gets to 200, he won't be dumb enough to untangle a mess of lines/d-bag/PC during a pack job and just guess it's 'good enough'. Another 100 jumps would give him the perspective that backing up the pack job a few steps to run a line check is well worth the 4 minutes it would have taken.

[Sangi 0]

As often you got some valid points there, I got to agree. It indeed was a distraction factor in this "sloppy" cutaway..

Still, can 100 more jumps prepare him for everything that is to come when flying a camera, instead of actually practicing flying it, having a bump or two in the way, but actually learning the real deal early on? What makes a person so special that in 100 jumps his awareness changes so uber drastically that he can now officially fly a camera?

"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

[JohnnyMarko 1]

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What makes a person so special that in 100 jumps his awareness changes so uber drastically that he can now officially fly a camera?

Your not helping those of us with less than 200 jumps look good. If your profile is accurate, you don't have 200 so you dont know what those extra 100 jumps can do.

[Sangi 0]

That's why I'm asking

"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

[wildcard451 0]

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Kinda of a rough description from how I remember the mount and stuff..

I don't think he meant a rough description, but how it was mounted on the helmet in question here.

The mounts are tougher than they look. After taking a fairly rough tumble on landing a few months back I thought for sure it would have snapped but everything was in perfect working order.

[pilotdave 0]

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Still, can 100 more jumps prepare him for everything that is to come when flying a camera, instead of actually practicing flying it, having a bump or two in the way, but actually learning the real deal early on? What makes a person so special that in 100 jumps his awareness changes so uber drastically that he can now officially fly a camera?

I think he probably learned a thing or two over his last 100 jumps that he didn't know before them. No reason to think he won't learn a few more things over the next 100.

In my opinion, 200 is an absolute minimum. This thread proves why... and the original post is only a small part of that.

Dave

[Hellis 0]

Im not going to blame you for any of the stuff that happend.

But as others said, keep in mind you might not have a RSL on the next cutaway. Borrowd rigg or the shackel might got unhooked by some reason.

Also, when you get a reserveride you are under a canopy that you are not used to.
I would get really pissed if i lost my helmet when i pulled my reserve.
Even if i never been under the reserve yet i would belive there is lots of other things to keep your mind busy.
Wheres the freebag, wheres the main, altitude, geting to know the *new* canopy, where did the helmet land, other canopys, main and freebag again, altitude, ohh shit forgot to testflare the canopy and now its too late.

Be safe!

[monkycndo 0]

Sangi, 100 jumps is a little over an hour and a half. Think of it like learning to drive a car. With only that much time, you can get from point a to point b, but you still are probably thinking about shifting, watching for traffic, using your turn signals and a whole host of other things. LOTS of things to think about at the same time. Add another 1.5 hours of drive time and those things have become a little more second nature and you are not having to think about them as much. You notice more things around you because the mechanics of what you are doing are not what you are concentrating on because they are muscle memory. You anticipate problems because you have the experience to see them before they are in your face. That only comes with time.

Lets change this to skydiving. But now you are getting this experience in 1 minute blocks weeks apart. Still the same issues of lots of things to focus on and muscle memory needing to be developed. Big difference is if you get overwhelmed in a car, you pull over. Can't do that in a skydive. Adding the camera adds more shit you have to think about and having that built up muscle memory allows one to focus at the task at hand.

These responses are provided in the hope of helping a noob become an old fart instead of a statistic. Might seem harsh, but when after many people saying slow it down and the OP still saying "but, but, but, I'll be OK, I'm special", it just shows that showering people with rainbows and unicorns doesn't always work and a swift internet slap up side the head *might* get through.

Hmmmm, anyone listening?

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[piisfish 135]

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do you know how the GoPro was mounted on the helmet ?
If yes, please describe

Small plastic rectangular mount with a sticky tape on the bottom of it glued to the helmet and then the top mount (with a camera attached to it) is snapped into the bottom one (can be taken on and off at any time, the camera).

The plastic should break on a cutaway during a snag, however the sticky tape is very powerful and hard to get off..

Kinda of a rough description from how I remember the mount and stuff..

there are still lots of suppositions. Do you know if the original poster mounted his camera the way you described ?

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[jsreznor 0]

Um.....hook knife anyone? Think cutting that one line would have stopped the spin?

[pilotdave 0]

And then he'd need a reline instead of a repack. Reserves work... don't be afraid to use them when needed. In-air rigging is almost always a bad idea... unless it's a last resort.

Dave

[Calvin19 0]

Hey Josh,
Cool video. It's too bad the helmet went erratic in free fall, the ground rush could have been pretty cool.

on jumping a camera at <200 jumps: there is a reason for that "rule". from the video, I would say you passed the test. thinking on the spot and getting it away. I have never worn a 'cutaway' helmet. (and dude, most of the other muppets do not know you can break off a gopro 3M mount really easily, sucks to lose the camera but a canopy/riser snag will most likely tear it clean away)

The thing I see here is the packing mistake. Looks as if you stepped through a brake line. that should not happen man. sure, it is skydiving, but gross packing and set up errors should not happen. The reason I say this is the recent gross number of colorado skydivers I see turned 'BASE jumpers' so quickly and carried ALL their idiot skydive habits over. Watch out. Don't die.

Even line tension to pin closure is important. even in skydiving.

[danielcroft 2]

This thread is really depressing.

Pack you canopy like your life depends on it because it does.
Practice and perform your Emergency Procedures like your life depends on it because it does.
Understand that these decisions you make on the fly in a malfunction situation could cost you your life. Or worse, someone else's life.
When you think you know better than experienced skydivers remember that the likelihood of this actually being the case is very low.
When the only people who agree with you are low time jumpers, consider that you might all be wrong.
Remember that, as a low time jumper, you just don't have all the information on which to make decisions contrary to recommendations, that's what experience is for - learning the grey area between the rules. Learning the grey area takes a lifetime, not 60 jumps, not 300 jumps.

[davelepka 4]

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Um.....hook knife anyone? Think cutting that one line would have stopped the spin?

The whole point of this thread has been to not waste time unclipping the chin strap, and you suggest a course of action that would take at least ten times as long?

How long do you think it would take to locate and extract your hook knife, isolate the one the line in question, and cut the line? 15 seconds sounds reasonble given the high pressure situation, combined with the physical aspect of spinning at a high rate of speed.

What are your chances of snagging the wrong line wiht your hook knife? Add 10 seconds to locate and cut the right line.

Do you wear gloves? How easy do you think it will be to grab on specific line, under tension, with a gloved hand? Add another 10 seconds for that.

In the end, it you fail to cut the proper line, you still need to cutaway. How low do you want to do that?

Forget the idea of cutting lines under canopy unless it is your last resort. If your reserve has a mal, start cutting. If you're in a wrap with no options left, start cutting. Otherwise, use your handles, and do it quickly.

[hookitt 0]

That error was from packing, not stowing your lines. You didn't catch it when you ran the your hands up the lines to hang it over your shoulder. Learn to pack properly and do a proper line check. Even though it does happen.... that error should never occur.

What you described is very very improbable. Think of the excess line from the last line stow to your risers. Passing 1 of the lines around the entire d-bag and pilot chute would have to be entirely intentional.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[ridestrong 1]

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Um.....hook knife anyone? Think cutting that one line would have stopped the spin?

Dude, the line was too high to just reach up and cut it with a hook knive. It would take some serious time to try to identify that one line, separate it and cut it all while spinning hard and fast.... still not to guarantee a landable canopy.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[Flyfast 0]

If this kid is missing a such a blatant error with his packing he should be nowhere near a camera, GoPro or not. I guess he’s too busy rushing his packing so he can plug his GP in and watch his sick sitflying skillzzzz from the previous jump.

An instructor from Mile Hi needs to sit down with this 100 jump wonder before he's on the Incident forum.

ZC OG