GOpro with low jump number

[Morne 0]

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The serious answer is that around 200 jumps is when most people are ready to think about using a camera -- not that they're necessarily ready. 22 is the age at which most people can graduate from college, but many college students are older when they do, because they're not ready yet (and others are younger).

Wendy P.

Ok seriously how serious is this answer.. you are ready or you are not... that brings us back to the question that does jump nr's actually have something do to with it.

You are not ready by 195 but you will be by 210 or 215 or 220. Lets say all of those are uneventfull solo jumps. But now because of 220 you are seen as more ready.

How about at 100 jumps , but the last 30 or 40 have been recent and in 2 , 3 and 4 ways ?

Who is more ready ?

[DocPop 1]

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The serious answer is that around 200 jumps is when most people are ready to think about using a camera -- not that they're necessarily ready. 22 is the age at which most people can graduate from college, but many college students are older when they do, because they're not ready yet (and others are younger).

Wendy P.

Ok seriously how serious is this answer.. you are ready or you are not... that brings us back to the question that does jump nr's actually have something do to with it.

You are not ready by 195 but you will be by 210 or 215 or 220. Lets say all of those are uneventfull solo jumps. But now because of 220 you are seen as more ready.

How about at 100 jumps , but the last 30 or 40 have been recent and in 2 , 3 and 4 ways ?

Who is more ready ?

Just be glad you're not trying to downsize. Then you'd really have 'em after you.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[mx19 0]

I'd think that maybe Still the guy with 200 jumps as he has been around longer so will more likely have seen more carnage and be more aware of the risks; but the guy with 100 may be more ready with flying skills etc.

As said even with 200 jumps you may not be ready, so even though one might be more ready than the other it looks like neither would be ready to jump a camera.


Having said that, I know of a place where they put people with 80odd jumps on camera as most of them have been practicing for it.

[Morne 0]

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The serious answer is that around 200 jumps is when most people are ready to think about using a camera -- not that they're necessarily ready. 22 is the age at which most people can graduate from college, but many college students are older when they do, because they're not ready yet (and others are younger).

Wendy P.

Ok seriously how serious is this answer.. you are ready or you are not... that brings us back to the question that does jump nr's actually have something do to with it.

You are not ready by 195 but you will be by 210 or 215 or 220. Lets say all of those are uneventfull solo jumps. But now because of 220 you are seen as more ready.

How about at 100 jumps , but the last 30 or 40 have been recent and in 2 , 3 and 4 ways ?

Who is more ready ?

Just be glad you're not trying to downsize. Then you'd really have 'em after you.

lol . You know what , im happy with my 170 and I know it would be a danger to downsize now. But I fail to see how the camera will be dangerous.

I am told I will totally forget my ep's... I will totally forget to look at my alti...I will totally ignore my audible... I will forget to pull....and my cypress will most likely save me with me hangin on the reserve like an idiot thinking :"Man what an awesome video" .

[Morne 0]

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I'd think that maybe Still the guy with 200 jumps as he has been around longer so will more likely have seen more carnage and be more aware of the risks; but the guy with 100 may be more ready with flying skills etc.

As said even with 200 jumps you may not be ready, so even though one might be more ready than the other it looks like neither would be ready to jump a camera.


Having said that, Ionia of a place where they put people with 80odd jumps on camera as most of them have been practicing for it.

Jump nr's are not always directly linked to time spend on a dz..

[wmw999 2,116]

Evidence from other lower-time (and higher-time) camera flyers indicates that camera is very distracting. How much do you want to increase the chance that you'll lose focus for a few seconds?

More time in skydiving in general increases the number of skydiving actions that are automatic.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[DSE 3]

why do we have to keep revisiting this question?

If nothing else, it's development of muscle memory and motor skills combined with awareness. It's about having the autonomy required for when things go bad, and about having some autonomous skills while wearing a camera. The sports world claims it requires a minimum of 6 hours to train muscle and brain combinations for the most basic skills.
At 200 skydives, you have 200 minutes, or about half of what sport trainers suggest is required for any actual memory sequence.

Putting that aside, 200 jumps is the old "D" license.

200 isn't a magic number for wingsuits, cameras, whatever. It's an averaged benchmark determined by empirical evidence over time.
Some will perhaps be ready for "X" by 200 jumps, others will never be ready for X activity.
The scary part is those that think they're ready are unaware of their own limitations but aren't willing to accept the guidance from others who are trying to look out for them.

[Morne 0]

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Evidence from other lower-time (and higher-time) camera flyers indicates that camera is very distracting. How much do you want to increase the chance that you'll lose focus for a few seconds?

More time in skydiving in general increases the number of skydiving actions that are automatic.

Wendy P.

So the bottom line is distraction.

When I start flying camera(just for debrief purposes) I will plan a 2 way jump. Plan the whole dive. 90's 360's etc. alti checks. That should take the attention of the camera ? As always have a fully planned jump and break off altitude with my regular jump buddy.

What do you more experienced jumpers think about that?

[wmw999 2,116]

If you do that at 190 jumps, sounds like a decent plan. If you do that at 70 jumps, it's not. 100 jumps isn't nearly as many as it seems now; when you have 300 you'll be kind of shocked at how little you knew then as compared with what you thought you knew.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[pilotdave 0]

NOBODY thinks they will be distracted by a camera. But many people have been surprised to find how distracting it is... either on the first time they do it or maybe much later. I know someone that put on a camera with probably around 500 jumps, all recent. Super current, heads up jumper. Forgot his altimeter on his first camera jump even though he was extremely aware and trying to be careful. It caught him totally off guard when he realized he didn't have his altimeter. I know another guy with 2000+ jumps that has been skydiving since before the parachute was invented. Tried a gopro for inside RW video, but took it off when he found it was too distracting. I was once on a jump plane when a new camera guy got on the plane without his rig. He was so focused on his brand new camera suit that he forgot his rig. Can you imagine getting on a plane without touching all your handles and buckles? He had hundreds of jumps. There are endless stories of people doing really dumb things because they were distracted by their camera gear.

So if you think you are immune to distraction, well, all of them did too. And I know what you're thinking... if it's not just newbies that get distracted by cameras, why limit it by jump numbers? It's simple... you need to be good at whatever you're doing before you can still do it safely with added distraction. It's like a teenage driver... they can't deal with distractions as well as an experienced driver. If you haven't read them yet, there are much better writeups in the USPA SIM and in the camera forum on this site.

Dave

[DSE 3]

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So the bottom line is distraction.

When I start flying camera(just for debrief purposes) I will plan a 2 way jump. Plan the whole dive. 90's 360's etc. alti checks. That should take the attention of the camera ? As always have a fully planned jump and break off altitude with my regular jump buddy.

What do you more experienced jumpers think about that?

It's GREAT that you're thinking ahead to having a solid diveplan. Commendable even.
Would it hurt to get another 50% more prepared in terms of experience, for that "just in case things don't go as planned" moment?

[billvon 2,380]

>Why?

Because at 10 jumps most people cannot handle the additional multitasking required to fly a camera.

Because at 10 jumps most people cannot deal with the additional equipment complexity required to jump a camera.

And more importantly, because at 10 jumps most people don't even realize that they will need to multitask and deal with additional equipment complexity. Which is why we see so many "but my camera is really small and I'll just turn it on and forget it! I should be fine" posts.

Finally, because people at low jump numbers regularly have problems jumping small format cameras.

[billvon 2,380]

>When I start flying camera(just for debrief purposes) I will plan a
>2 way jump. Plan the whole dive. 90's 360's etc. alti checks.

That's great! Once you have a hundred or so jumps doing things like that you'll be in a much better position to strap on a camera. I'd also suggest getting a coach rating (or at least starting to work towards it.) It's a great way of practicing dividing your attention.

>That should take the attention of the camera ?

No, you'll still have a camera to deal with and a subject (the other guy.) Which is why the RW (and perhaps coaching) part should come first.

[in2jumping 0]

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Just be glad you're not trying to downsize. Then you'd really have 'em after you.

Neither one of you guys get it do you? You guys just can not read the writing on the wall? You under your Katana with so few jumps and doing less than 100 jumps a year and this guys wanting to jump a camera with 67 jumps.

I sure the hell am glad I did not learn to jump at where ever you guys jump at. There is no way in hell that my DZO or STA would have ever let stupid shit like this ever happen at his DZ.

[DocPop 1]

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Neither one of you guys get it do you? You guys just can not read the writing on the wall? You under your Katana with so few jumps and doing less than 100 jumps a year and this guys wanting to jump a camera with 67 jumps.

I sure the hell am glad I did not learn to jump at where every you guys jump at. There is not way in hell that my DZO or STA would have ever let stupid shit like this ever happen at his DZ.

It's you that doesn't get it.

Who the fuck are you to tell me I am being "stupid" when my DZO and S&TA have watched me jump and are happy with how I am doing?

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[billvon 2,380]

>Jump nr's are not always directly linked to time spend on a dz.

True, but drinking beer is not great preparation for doing video . . .

[wmw999 2,116]

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drinking beer is not great preparation for doing video

Oh come on Bill -- some of the best video comes from "hold my beer and video this!"

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Peej 0]

Morne, by the looks of your profile we jump at the same DZ, although i don't think we've met. If you ever want to chat cameras (and all the crap that goes along with them), face to face, come and find me at the Skyhigh video hut. I'll be happy to tell you about a few of my fuck-ups along the way and hopefully help you avoid them when you're ready to jump your own.

Cheers
PJ

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[craigbey 0]

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my DZO and S&TA have watched me jump and are happy with how I am doing

Who are these people and/or where do you jump?

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

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>Why?

Because at 10 jumps most people cannot handle the additional multitasking required to fly a camera.

Because at 10 jumps most people cannot deal with the additional equipment complexity required to jump a camera.

And more importantly, because at 10 jumps most people don't even realize that they will need to multitask and deal with additional equipment complexity. Which is why we see so many "but my camera is really small and I'll just turn it on and forget it! I should be fine" posts.

Finally, because people at low jump numbers regularly have problems jumping small format cameras.

I think you misread the post. I did too at first.

He said "10 jumps short" (italics mine).

Meaning what is different at 190 vs 200 (I think).

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[billvon 2,380]

>Meaning what is different at 190 vs 200 (I think).

Ah, sorry. At 190 jumps it depends how he's doing. Most people will not be ready to handle the additional distraction. A very heads-up, unusually aware jumper who has had a lot of experience _might_ be almost ready, and if he makes a few more jumps, gets good advice and a lot of help from an experienced camera person, could probably do it safely.

[crotalus01 0]

You guys are obsessed with the number 200.
Perhaps there is a reason its a recommendation and not a BSR?
Just think, if every jumper followed the Requirement by a few Tandem manufacturers that they need 500 jumps total and 100 camera jumps in order to film a tandem...

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[billvon 2,380]

>Perhaps there is a reason its a recommendation and not a BSR?

Because not enough people have died yet to reach the BSR threshold - despite some very creative attempts.

>Just think, if every jumper followed the Requirement by a few Tandem
>manufacturers that they need 500 jumps total and 100 camera jumps in
>order to film a tandem..

Horrors! It would be the end of skydiving as we know it! Some people wouldn't get free jumps! They'd have to pay video people slightly more money!

Next thing you know they'll want AFF jumpmasters to have 200 jumps.

[DocPop 1]

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my DZO and S&TA have watched me jump and are happy with how I am doing

Who are these people and/or where do you jump?

There is no way I am naming names so this mud-slinging can start affecting bystanders, but suffice it to say that these individuals are both competent canopy pilots with somewhere north of 14,000 jumps between them.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[PiLFy 0]

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The serious answer is that around 200 jumps is when most people are ready to think about using a camera -- not that they're necessarily ready. 22 is the age at which most people can graduate from college, but many college students are older when they do, because they're not ready yet (and others are younger).

Wendy P.

Hi Wendy,
I must beg to differ w/your analogy, my dear. I didn't get to start college until I was 26. I graduated @32. The reasons were purely monetary.

I can't believe how long this thread has gone on for. The SIM guide lines are there for a reason. They were put there by instructors w/decades of experience. A couple of my instructors have over thirty years of jump experience a piece. I may be able to teach them a few tricks off the DZ. However, regarding anything skydive-related? Their word is gospel. I would be an absolute fool if I thought I knew better than them. There's always some young pups who don't want to listen. Who think they know better. The Internet makes it very easy to find out what usually happens under those circumstances. Are some of the last thoughts you want to go through you heads "I'm an *sshole. They were all right"??? Lotsa Luck, boys.