Scared myself bad yesterday

[RUN_FMX 7]

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Ask yourself "What would Travis Pastrana do?"

Hhahahaha!

And you can apply that to all aspects of your life, not just skydiving.

Rove - hes here in Feb

[hookitt 0]

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When I pulled the toggles and turned the toggle lines were moving. However they did not come down as far as I had been used too. When I pulled the toggles to my chest, the risers did not come with them, I would have noticed that. .

Stowed Brakes will not pull the riser down. It can't pull the riser down because the stowed toggle is below the guide ring.

You are completely correct that only the line came down .... BUT... you did make a mistake by failing to notice You already know this now because you've experienced a problem and learned from it. Keep it up.

If the toggles are hard to release, they are WAY too soft and that rig needs to be grounded until they are replaced with stiffer toggles.

Toggles should release fairly easy. If they are not, that is really bad and needs to be fixed. A problem like that can and has hurt and killed people.

If one stays stowed, it's then up to you how to control the canopy. Low to the ground, you're forced to deal with what you have. Stop trying to fix the unstowed line, hold the unstowed line down to match it and prepare to crash land/PLF.

You can steer it, but you better point it somewhere good!

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[hookitt 0]

OH yeah. This was said already but it should be emphasized.


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Ask yourself "What would Travis Pastrana do?"

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[tmarine253 0]

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If the toggles are hard to release, they are WAY too soft and that rig needs to be grounded until they are replaced with stiffer toggles.

Thanks for the reply, I will talk to the instructor and have him look at the rig to see if it needs maintenance.

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[skyrider 0]

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You need to go over the sequence of events with your instructor and the rig that you are using.

Students should not seek information from anonymous people over the internet. With out seeing the actual risers, toggles, etc... there is no one here that can tell you why.

Your instructor can also demonstrate to you how to stop the turn or spin and get the wing level. That's why you have him/her available to you at this level of your training.

Bingo....

[petejones45 0]

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You're confusing a riser stall with a toggle stall.

no i'm not

Look out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES!

[riggerpaul 1]

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When I pulled the toggles and turned the toggle lines were moving. However they did not come down as far as I had been used too. When I pulled the toggles to my chest, the risers did not come with them, I would have noticed that. .

Stowed Brakes will not pull the riser down. It can't pull the riser down because the stowed toggle is below the guide ring.

You are completely correct that only the line came down .... BUT... you did make a mistake by failing to notice You already know this now because you've experienced a problem and learned from it. Keep it up.

If the toggles are hard to release, they are WAY too soft and that rig needs to be grounded until they are replaced with stiffer toggles.

Toggles should release fairly easy. If they are not, that is really bad and needs to be fixed. A problem like that can and has hurt and killed people.

If one stays stowed, it's then up to you how to control the canopy. Low to the ground, you're forced to deal with what you have. Stop trying to fix the unstowed line, hold the unstowed line down to match it and prepare to crash land/PLF.

You can steer it, but you better point it somewhere good!

Hi Tim,

Rereading, I see that you are probably right.

But, I'll only give you "probably" because it has also happened that a too soft toggle has been pulled right through the guide ring. In that case, pulling the stuck toggle will pull down the riser. I just recently saw a photo of this sort of problem, but I can't remember where. It might have been in Parachutist, but I don't keep back issues anymore, so I cannot look.

So, I'll admit my mistake, and thank you for posting an important reply.

My bad.

I'll stand by the rest of my post though.

[SRI85 0]

today on a skydive, i noticed the loop on my brake line was catching the squarish slider stops. I noticed it after i went for a turn and felt a "catch" type of resistance. Perhaps this is what happened in your situation.

[Bertt 0]

Your description of the problem perplexes me. I wonder if the brakes were set correctly when the rig was packed?

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[tmarine253 0]

To further describe, and I feel I am not using correct terminology of the parts of the equipment I am describing. The top of the brake handles would not release because there appeared to be a loop of line around the top of the handle (which I presume is supposed to be there to stowe the brakes) and this loop was extremely tight and when I pulled down on the toggles the brake handle would not come out the loop just came down with it. On the second jump with this canopy I gave it like 5 hard pulls before the brakes released. I dont know if this is a problem with the brakes or am I doing something wrong. On my previous 13 jumps over the past month when I started AFF I have never had this problem, the brakes were always really really easy to release.

[pilotdave 0]

I actually had that happen to me once, last winter. I had bought new risers and the toggles were poorly made (UPT). A rigger looked at them afterward and told me the thread tension was way too low. The tops of the toggles had a little bit of an hourglass shape, so if the toggles were inserted too far into the cat eyes (loops on the steering lines), they were hard to pull out. I got used to just setting my brakes carefully to avoid any problems. Unfortunately on this one jump I had forgotten to set them and a packer did it for me.

It's not like flaring with rear risers at all. The toggles come off the risers just fine. It's just that the toggles are still through the cat eyes, so you're always in quarter brakes or more on one or both sides.

I spent my whole canopy ride trying to jab my toggles down to get them out of the cat eyes. Unfortunately pretty low one of them came out and the other didn't. Had to hold one side in quarter brakes to fly straight. The canopy actually flew surprisingly well like that. Did some practice flares and then did it for real. I was ready to come crashing in but it landed just fine.

After that jump, I put my old toggles back on.

Nice job dealing with a tough situation. Your DZ should be checking out those toggles to find out what might be wrong with them, if anything.

Dave

[tmarine253 0]

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I actually had that happen to me once, last winter. I had bought new risers and the toggles were poorly made (UPT). A rigger looked at them afterward and told me the thread tension was way too low. The tops of the toggles had a little bit of an hourglass shape, so if the toggles were inserted too far into the cat eyes (loops on the steering lines), they were hard to pull out. I got used to just setting my brakes carefully to avoid any problems. Unfortunately on this one jump I had forgotten to set them and a packer did it for me.

It's not like flaring with rear risers at all. The toggles come off the risers just fine. It's just that the toggles are still through the cat eyes, so you're always in quarter brakes or more on one or both sides.

I spent my whole canopy ride trying to jab my toggles down to get them out of the cat eyes. Unfortunately pretty low one of them came out and the other didn't. Had to hold one side in quarter brakes to fly straight. The canopy actually flew surprisingly well like that. Did some practice flares and then did it for real. I was ready to come crashing in but it landed just fine.

After that jump, I put my old toggles back on.

Nice job dealing with a tough situation. Your DZ should be checking out those toggles to find out what might be wrong with them, if anything.

Dave

This is exactly what happened to me, Im glad I could finally explain it in a semi-correct way where someone understands. I will make sure an instructor or a rigger gets a chance to look at the rig so he can determine what needs to be done to it.

[Morrison79 0]

This picture?

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=125306;

[tmarine253 0]

The brake handle was not in the silver ring but it was stuck in the loop that the line makes around the brake handle.

[popsjumper 2]

Correct terminlogy will help.

"Brake handle" = Toggle

"Loop" = brake line cat's eye

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[tmarine253 0]

Got it.

[popsjumper 2]

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Exactly. You couldnt have done a full flare if your toggles where still stowed. If you attempted it, and your toggles were stuck to the point that even a full flare didnt clear them, then the canopy would have stalled, or been on the edge of a stall.

not necessarily, some dropzones set up the toggles so students won't be able to stall the canopy

Pete, now that the problem has been clarified by the OP, I hope you now understand why your rebuttal was off-base.

Yes, you are correct in that student canopies should be, and at most DZs are, set up in stall prevention mode by using extended lower control lines.

In the OP's case, the half-flare (to the chest) was actually a full flare because the brake line excess was still on the toggles (toggles still through the cat's eyes).
Had the OP given a full flare to full arm extension, then the canopy would have, in all likelihood, stalled.


To everyone:
We here teach the controlability check includes:
1. Full arm extension brake release.
2. Full arm extension right turn for 180 degrees.
e. Full arm extension right turn for 180 degrees.
4. Full arm extension brake check for two seconds.

(and yes, yes...the clear-your-airspace and head-on-a-swivel is included in the training.)

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Please take Wendy's advice for more gear knowledge training. Knowledge is power.

As far as handling the situation, you did well.
Getting into the problem in the first place could have easily been prevented simply by looking at your toggles and seeing the cat's eye still stuck on them but once you got into the situation, you handled it properly as I understand your actions.

You finally got BOTH brakes to release....and that's what you do in that instance.

Now, what if you hadn't been able to get the second brake to release? What would you have done?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Skydivesg 6]

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" On the PD Nav rigs, there is a pin for the toggle. Excess stowed line is looped around that pin."
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Just for the record. Canopies do not come with toggles. Toggles and risers are part of the container system.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

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[tmarine253 0]

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Now, what if you hadn't been able to get the second brake to release? What would you have done?

That is a great question. I do not think I would have cutaway because that thought crossed my mind but I felt I was entirely too low. I probably would have continued to pump my risers as hard as I could have and then hold them back as hard as I could in order to try to get the canopy into the flair. But I honestly can't say for sure what I would have done.

[Bertt 0]

I am no longer perplexed. Your explanation makes perfectly good sense. Brakes should be really, really easy to release (and secure before you release them, of course). What you describe could be a problem with the toggle, or the cat's eye in the brake line could be too tight, or something could have gotten kinked up when the rig was packed. You and a rigger can take a look at it on the ground and tell what's going on. You can set and release the brakes on the ground a few times to make sure it's working right before you jump with it again.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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That is a great question. I do not think I would have cutaway because that thought crossed my mind but I felt I was entirely too low. I probably would have continued to pump my risers as hard as I could have and then hold them back as hard as I could in order to try to get the canopy into the flair. But I honestly can't say for sure what I would have done.

Do whatever you have to do to make the canopy fly straight and level. When it's time to land, flare as much as you can without making the canopy turn or stall. Put your feet and knees together for a good PLF. But the most important thing-Be going in a straight line, not turning, when you land.

PS- Reserves can work in as little as 500 feet, but try not to bet your life on it. One little problem and it's "game over."

Thanks for sharing your experience with us and helping us figure out the probable cause.

[MakeItHappen 15]

call me cynical if you wish, but I think tmarine is a troll.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[JohnMitchell 14]

You could be right. My Troll Radar sux.

[Bertt 0]

Breaking News - You're cynical

You don't have to outrun the bear.