Hvance 0 #1 November 3, 2010 Was on an eight way last weekend that sort of fell apart out of the door. Was supposed to quickly become a zipper, but a few people tumbled/etc. So the question is how to get back together.. I assume that if there's a distinct base, it stays put and everyone builds off of it again. But what if there's not a defined base, like in the zipper? Or maybe there should be a base, and I don't know about it?I wish Google Maps had an "Avoid Ghetto" routing option. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #2 November 3, 2010 Make a plan prior to loading. Some times, when it is a formation like that, it is planned to re-build inside out. The four way center zipper builds and then the rest build in slot once the base is ready. Some places go with the "Go to the low man" rule. But if it is a group that jumps together a bit this should not be a real necessary method. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #3 November 3, 2010 I'll echo both points. You should have a 'plan B' and a designated base on every formation jump, just in case. The 'low man' rule is also a good one to keep in mind becasue it's generally tougher to float back up to a formation than to sink down to it. If the 'low man' also happens to be the biggest guy on the jump (go figure, a big guy drops out further in a funnel) he may never get back in. The solution is to either designate the big guy as the default base, or make sure the designated base is sharp enough to account for the low man in a funnel. It's true that the base is supposed to 'lay base', as-in sit still and be a base, but there's no reason they can't punch it out and drop down to lay a base in a position where the lowest jumper has a chance to get back in. They could even suck it right down to the low man, and have that jumper be the 'first' one back in the base. All of this is dependent on the low man doing their job as well. If they are making an effort to slow down and get back in, it makes it even easier and quicker for the base to help them out. If they are down and dirty, looking up, backsliding and dropping away from the base, at some point the base has to 'call it a day' and just sit still or risk spending the rest of the dive chasing down the low man, wasting everyone elses time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #4 November 3, 2010 If there is no designated base and pin, it's usually the "Go to the Low Man" rules. There really should be a designated base on the jump. The base, as Dave explained, can help out the low man up to a point. Next time Travis goes low, wave bye-bye to him. One could always, god forbid the forethought, PLAN the dive and then dive the plan (including Plan B). My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hvance 0 #5 November 3, 2010 Quote If there is no designated base and pin, it's usually the "Go to the Low Man" rules. There really should be a designated base on the jump. The base, as Dave explained, can help out the low man up to a point. Next time Travis goes low, wave bye-bye to him. One could always, god forbid the forethought, PLAN the dive and then dive the plan (including Plan B). Haha. Wasn't Travis. This was on the TDS dive. I knew I needed to be with Bolas, since we were the joint of the second point, so I just flew to him.I wish Google Maps had an "Avoid Ghetto" routing option. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyrider 0 #6 November 3, 2010 Can't add much, just reinforce ALWAYS have a plan B! If it a get together group, (not a team) General standing rule for plan B is dock on the low man, form a star, Try to rebuild from there, Or Just enjoy the sky! Experienced group of course will rebuild slot perfect on the low man! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,046 #7 November 3, 2010 Hi dave, Quote You should have a 'plan B' and a designated base on every formation jump, just in case. I used to 'try' to do this back in the day @ Sheridan. Wow, did I get a ration of @%&@. The jumps that did NOT build properly far outweigh the ones that did. Obviously, I support your comments. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 261 #8 November 3, 2010 There can be additional complications and grey areas, even with knowing some of the standard plan B rules. If planning a single formation, then it is easy for people to make the best formation they can, and leave out the guy who goes low. If planning a sequence of formations, then it may make little sense to try to build and change incomplete formations without the low guy, so people are more willing to go to the low guy. If the low guy is 20' down, maybe people will go to him. But if he drops 50' down, people may count him out. (Plus it is harder to close nearly pure vertical distance without some good skills.) If a formation is completely broken up, people are more likely to head for the low guy than if there are some chunks of formation left -- then the tendency is to go for whatever group looks most like the original base, or the largest group of people. I'm not saying what's right, but saying what actually happens. Rules or recommendations are still good to have, but in reality there's a lot of behaviour that is made up on the spot because the rules don't cover all the circumstances involved. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airviking 0 #9 November 3, 2010 Quote Can't add much, just reinforce ALWAYS have a plan B! If it a get together group, (not a team) General standing rule for plan B is dock on the low man, form a star, Try to rebuild from there, Or Just enjoy the sky! Experienced group of course will rebuild slot perfect on the low man! Our plan-B was always ZOO-DIVE!!! Everybody flys up, down and in circles chasing each other around the sky like bees in a box. Of coarse, it woulda made sense to pick one guy from the base that everyone should go for in the unlikely event of a funnel, but what's the fun in that?I believe you have my stapler. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyrider 0 #10 November 3, 2010 Quote Quote Can't add much, just reinforce ALWAYS have a plan B! If it a get together group, (not a team) General standing rule for plan B is dock on the low man, form a star, Try to rebuild from there, Or Just enjoy the sky! Experienced group of course will rebuild slot perfect on the low man! Our plan-B was always ZOO-DIVE!!! Everybody flys up, down and in circles chasing each other around the sky like bees in a box. Of coarse, it woulda made sense to pick one guy from the base that everyone should go for in the unlikely event of a funnel, but what's the fun in that? You seriously NEED to join Airtrash....You will love them...Great bunch of folks too......... http://www.airtrash.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #11 November 3, 2010 To reiterate what others have said, if the dive had a slot-specific formation to start with, rebuild the formation as originally planned. Wave byebye to any poor sap that went low and can't get back up (been there done that on both sides of the coin). If it was just a fun jump with no preset plan of action or points, if someone goes low and you KNOW that person isn't going to make it back up (anvil type or too tight jumpsuit) then "go to the low man" rule comes into play. That's just from my experience. "Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
erdnarob 1 #12 November 4, 2010 This possible problem of tumbling should be reviewed at the dirt dive. On a 8 way zipper the base could be the first zipper facing forward as reviewed at the dirt dive followed by the second zipper docking on their legs. Yes a 8 way zipper could have a base but make sure at the dirt dive to know who is doing what if something wrong happens. Few more minutes at the dirt dive for unexpected situations can avoid confusion and make a dive which didn't started well to be successful.Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyrider 0 #13 November 4, 2010 Quote To reiterate what others have said, if the dive had a slot-specific formation to start with, rebuild the formation as originally planned. Wave byebye to any poor sap that went low and can't get back up (been there done that on both sides of the coin). If it was just a fun jump with no preset plan of action or points, if someone goes low and you KNOW that person isn't going to make it back up (anvil type or too tight jumpsuit) then "go to the low man" rule comes into play. That's just from my experience. Yep...basic save the jump, and still have fun, withotu killing anyone... If ya go to low man, everyone should be in safe air at break off...NO garenteee, BUT they should be...everyone had the same focus.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #14 November 4, 2010 Quote Quote To reiterate what others have said, if the dive had a slot-specific formation to start with, rebuild the formation as originally planned. Wave byebye to any poor sap that went low and can't get back up (been there done that on both sides of the coin). If it was just a fun jump with no preset plan of action or points, if someone goes low and you KNOW that person isn't going to make it back up (anvil type or too tight jumpsuit) then "go to the low man" rule comes into play. That's just from my experience. Yep...basic save the jump, and still have fun, withotu killing anyone... If ya go to low man, everyone should be in safe air at break off...NO garenteee, BUT they should be...everyone had the same focus.... Agreed, and if someone does go low and can't get back up, then stay there until break-off time so the rest can account for that person. Don't go disappearing off as soon as you realize you're not going to get back in the formation. Makes it harder for the rest of us to know where the fuck you went while we're tracking."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyrider 0 #15 November 4, 2010 Quote Quote Quote To reiterate what others have said, if the dive had a slot-specific formation to start with, rebuild the formation as originally planned. Wave byebye to any poor sap that went low and can't get back up (been there done that on both sides of the coin). If it was just a fun jump with no preset plan of action or points, if someone goes low and you KNOW that person isn't going to make it back up (anvil type or too tight jumpsuit) then "go to the low man" rule comes into play. That's just from my experience. Yep...basic save the jump, and still have fun, withotu killing anyone... If ya go to low man, everyone should be in safe air at break off...NO garenteee, BUT they should be...everyone had the same focus.... Agreed, and if someone does go low and can't get back up, then stay there until break-off time so the rest can account for that person. Don't go disappearing off as soon as you realize you're not going to get back in the formation. Makes it harder for the rest of us to know where the fuck you went while we're tracking. Here is a ass saver...when ya see your in that"aint ever gonna get back" place....make a 50 /80 foot circle, flying flat, by the time that circle is done, you are back on level, and safe for everyone, soemtimes even able to rejoin...(ALWAYS watching the group over yoru shoulder, so you know you are safe...))) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #16 November 4, 2010 Hunter, As a youngster, I always planned for the funnel and didn't know what to do when it didn't funnel. True story: As a youngster, I had a guy that took me under his wing (Max, I still owe you big time) and stuck with me. He'd invite me on all his jumps and I continuously went low jump after jump after jump. Well, it didn't take long for him to start doing this: "OK, we got 8 people. We'll plan a 7-way and Andy, if you make it in, dock over there." You don't know how happy I was when I finally, to everyone's total surprise, made in on that first dock. It confused them so much they didn't even try for the second point. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #17 November 4, 2010 Quote ...Makes it harder for the rest of us to know where the fuck you went while we're tracking. I always know where they go.....right underneath MY lane. Move over Billy! I gotta squeeze you a bit!My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beachbum 0 #18 November 4, 2010 Had to laugh out loud at that one ... really! One option that takes place where I usually jump, with one of the organizers, is that he will make the call on that. I haven't ever heard it discussed, he just does it ... if someone is low, he looks and makes a quick assessment, and will either continue with the dive minus one, or motion everyone to give chase to the low person. I'm sure he considers who, how far down, skill level of others on the jump, etc. in that decision.As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hvance 0 #19 November 4, 2010 Now that's funny Andy. Thanks for the good input all. I wish Google Maps had an "Avoid Ghetto" routing option. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airviking 0 #20 November 4, 2010 Quote You seriously NEED to join Airtrash....You will love them...Great bunch of folks too......... http://www.airtrash.com Yeah, they look look like a serious and dedicated group of skydivers. Unfortunately on the wrong coast. Maybe they'll let me open an East Coast chapter?!I believe you have my stapler. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyrider 0 #21 November 4, 2010 Quote Quote You seriously NEED to join Airtrash....You will love them...Great bunch of folks too......... http://www.airtrash.com Yeah, they look look like a serious and dedicated group of skydivers. Unfortunately on the wrong coast. Maybe they'll let me open an East Coast chapter?! Yes, they have chapters in every corner, Including(I think you said the Ranch is home) At the Ranch.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fastphil 0 #22 November 5, 2010 a Kiss Pass is an option... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
