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swoopfly

taking gear

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everyone gets 2 ro 3 jumps a day, and that's not enough to keep people interested.



Really? I know lots of people who would be stoked to get two student jumps a day and have the rest of the day to fun jump.

The "rotation" system you describe means that if someone isn't willing to spend the entire day/weekend working and isn't able to do 5+ jumps in a day, they don't get any paid skydives. No wonder you have a limited number of rating holders; not everybody wants to spend all of their skydiving time working, but if they don't they won't get enough work jumps in to renew their rating. :S

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I know lots of people who would be stoked to get two student jumps a day and have the rest of the day to fun jump



More than you think, I'm one of those people. I pass work jumps on to the other guys all the time becasue I'd rather make a fun jump.

However, as a DZO if you have to choose between a guy who is willing to work the whole day provided he can stay busy, and a guy who only wants to do a few work jumps, you have to go with the all day guy.

Again, this is a business, and you have to be able to take advatage of the weekends when the weather is good. There's a limited amount of time available to make the money that keeps the doors open, and you can't survive with a group of instructors who 'might' want to work or 'might not'. I don't think it's at all uncommon that the guys who are willing to commit to the whole day are the guys who get first dibs on the work, in fact I would say that this the norm at the majority of DZs. Full timers get the first shot at work jumps, and then the part timers, with the senior part timers coming first over the new guys.

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To let everone know I am the DZO that this thread is about. Situation very busy tandem day swoopfly regular packer at DZ has been asking for a chance to fly video. I comped several slots on non video tandems for him to prove himself. After several attempts he proved he could NOT produce a sellable product. One of the regular video flyers rig was not packed as the bus was leaving, normally my staff would grab a rental rig but none were available. I asked swoopfly to let me borrow his rig he whinned a bit but I reminded him of all the FREE gear rental I gave him before he could afford his own gear. I also assured him I would take full responsibility for his gear. The videographer that used the gear has 500 jumps and currently jumps a crossfire 129, the borrowed gear was a katana 135. Those that know me know that I am a stand up DZO. My 2 cents.


The Farm

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I don't remember Wes actually saying No.
Wes did accept the thank you later with no complaints.

It appears to me to be a situation where Wes was not really happy with the idea but for whatever reason didn't stand up and say No. Now, after thinking about it, he decided to throw his side out for public consumption to justify his anger.

I think he should be angry with himself for not saying No in the first place although I can't understand why he would say no to someone who has bent over backward helping him out from day 1 up to now.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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I comped several slots on non video tandems for him to prove himself

I reminded him of all the FREE gear rental I gave him before he could afford his own gear.

One of the regular video flyers rig was not packed as the bus was leaving, normally my staff would grab a rental rig but none were available.

I also assured him I would take full responsibility for his gear.



This is why I was asking if the OP was an employee at the DZ, and the general situation.

At most DZs, once you join the staff, you become a member of the 'team'. Sometime the 'teamwork' goes in your favor, like when you get free slots to practice video, or you get to buy your mom a tandem for the price of 2 slots and rig rental. Other times, the 'teamwork' is on your part, like when you have to donate a jump for a staff members mom to do a tandem, or stay late to help pack every rig for the next day, or loan your rig to another staffer to make a staff jump to service a paying customer.

I take back my position that the OP had every right to be upset. The rig was owned by a staffer, and loaned out to another staffer, who had no other options, and was making a staff jump. On top of it all, the rig was 'covered' by the DZO against loss or damage. Furthermore, the borrower was experienced jumper very similar equipment.

Given the details of the story, both the post and not being willing to loan the rig in the first place is very bad form. Even if there was a rental rig available, how about helping a brother out, and giving them a 'fun' rig to jump? If you're not going to need it, and won't get hung out to dry in the case of loss or damage, what's the harm?

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I want to hear Wes's reply to Hans. The main operative point to the OP's thread was that the rig was used despite the fact that he said No. Wes says he said no; but Hans said Wes agreed. Clearly Wes wants us to be the "jury". As a "juror", I can't imagine how those two versions can be reconciled until/unless Wes replies to (and/or rebuts) what Hans has posted. Then we can weigh the two versions against each other and take it from there.

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+1

I have to agree with davelepka on this one, the gear was covered by the DZO, it was a staff jump, the load was completed. I see nothing wrong with taking one for the team. If it was me under those circumstances I would say no problem. the more that staff jumpers and fun jumpers can help a DZO make money or at least break even the better it is all around. The DZO will hopefully be appreciative of assistance such as this and maybe hesitate or reduce the financial pain of fun jumpers when it comes time to raise jump rates. We at a situation at the dz I jump at a couple of weeks ago, the door latch on the plane failed and would not keep the door open, there was a mix of tandems with video and fun jumpers on the load. I was asked to hold the door open so everyone could exit, I was also given the option of following the last tandem out, I watched the last tandem exit, didn't like the option of following a tandem out, I didn't feel it was safe, landed with the plane. Got a thank you from the DZO and not charged for the ride. the tandems and fun jumpers were happy, the dz made money,,,didn't bother me at all.

"The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it." - Michelangelo

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To let everone know I am the DZO that this thread is about. Situation very busy tandem day swoopfly regular packer at DZ has been asking for a chance to fly video. I comped several slots on non video tandems for him to prove himself. After several attempts he proved he could NOT produce a sellable product. One of the regular video flyers rig was not packed as the bus was leaving, normally my staff would grab a rental rig but none were available. I asked swoopfly to let me borrow his rig he whinned a bit but I reminded him of all the FREE gear rental I gave him before he could afford his own gear. I also assured him I would take full responsibility for his gear. The videographer that used the gear has 500 jumps and currently jumps a crossfire 129, the borrowed gear was a katana 135. Those that know me know that I am a stand up DZO. My 2 cents.



you may be generous, but you lack class by calling into question the guys ability to fly, especially in a thread where the discussion is about using another persons property without permission.

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you may be generous, but you lack class by calling into question the guys ability to fly



Considering that the loan was to a staff camera flyer who was not preparred for the load, in the absence of that info, the obvious question would be why the video jump wasn't given to the OP, who was obviously packed and not otherwise on the load.

If the case was the he wanted to give the rig to an unpreparred staff jumper, while the owner of the rig was also a qualifed video flyer, then I would wonder why the OP was being passed over for video work, and why the DZO expected him to provide gear so another video guy could make the jump and the money.

Knowing that the OP was not qualified to fly the video, explains all of that. It also adds to the possibility of sour grapes playing a part in the OPs reluctance to be a team player.

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ya'll taking this thread places it doesn't need to go


questions recently posed need clarification-

* OP says his rig was taken w/o permission by the DZO

* DZO says it was used with consent.

we now have conflicting stories. who is telling the truth?



everyone trying to excuse the dzo's actions for what ever reason is moot.

team player or not, sky god or not.. doesn't matter. there is no justification for taking a rig w/o permission (unless, as previously mentioned, it was the only way a life could have been saved ( ~ whatever))

IMHO this has turned into a jerry springer type thread, which sadly, seems to be a commonly reoccurring theme here. There is a reason I don't go into the "community" section.. it's really bad in there last I looked...I thought that kinda stuff was supposed to stay there (?)


man up. someone here is lying and/or not telling the whole (relevant) story.

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ya'll taking this thread places it doesn't need to go


questions recently posed need clarification-

* OP says his rig was taken w/o permission by the DZO

* DZO says it was used with consent.

we now have conflicting stories. who is telling the truth?



everyone trying to excuse the dzo's actions for what ever reason is moot.

team player or not, sky god or not.. doesn't matter. there is no justification for taking a rig w/o permission (unless, as previously mentioned, it was the only way a life could have been saved ( ~ whatever))

IMHO this has turned into a jerry springer type thread, which sadly, seems to be a commonly reoccurring theme here. There is a reason I don't go into the "community" section.. it's really bad in there last I looked...I thought that kinda stuff was supposed to stay there (?)


man up. someone here is lying and/or not telling the whole (relevant) story.



Ding!

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but you lack class by calling into question



Not really, he is pointing out the fact he the DZO ate the slots (free jumps) to the OP in order to give a chance to someone who wanted to do video. This cost the operation money, now had the guy had the skills to do the job it would be a good investment on Hans part, however it was not......

Then when the DZO is need of a favor it was or was not repaid, in this case it seems it was not, instead the DZO is getting flamed.

I was not there I have no idea what was said by the OP, however I have personally dealt with Hans on a number of times and in fact he is a one of the most giving DZO's I've known and he asks nothing or very little in return.

I'm willing to bet that nothing would have ever been said about the OP's lack of skills or repayment for the comp slots by Hans, ever, however the OP choose to make a stink, now hearing the other side of the story and knowing the DZO and how giving and helpful he is to many many people, I find it hard to believe Hans or any of his staff would take a rig and use it if the owner had said NO.

I have never found Hans to lie or not be honest in his business dealings, I have seen him give to students in order to make skydivers, I have seen him give to help others get ratings and all at his expense to do so, if anything he is in fact a class act!
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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Full timers get the first shot at work jumps, and then the part timers, with the senior part timers coming first over the new guys.

That's exactly how it works at our DZ. There's a number of instructors paying their rent with skydiving, and they have first priority. I'm definitely a "senior part timer" and get all the work I want, both AFF and tandem. I have no problem being just another fun jumper when there's a slow day.

BTW, I've loaned out my gear, and borrowed others, to get students into the air. I think the OP is just bummed 'cause his tryout at camera didn't go so well. I was impressed that you gave him free slots to practice and try out. At our DZ, you pay for those slots yourself. Hell, give me a couple of free jumps, I'll be glad to loan you my Infinity. B|

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I don't remember Wes actually saying No.
Wes did accept the thank you later with no complaints.

It appears to me to be a situation where Wes was not really happy with the idea but for whatever reason didn't stand up and say No. Now, after thinking about it, he decided to throw his side out for public consumption to justify his anger.

I think he should be angry with himself for not saying No in the first place although I can't understand why he would say no to someone who has bent over backward helping him out from day 1 up to now.



your right i didnt say no, But HELL No. And after the fact that it was still taken i figured does it really matter what i say past this point? Now i am not here to flame the dz in fact i love the DZ, i think its great. I am just upset with the lack of respect i was given (definitly no reason not for you guys to jump there). And yes i recieved a thank you with no complaints because the person who jumped my gear was not the one who took it.

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. Those that know me know that I am a stand up DZO. My 2 cents.



hey i will agree here that he is a standup dzo, has one of the best dropzones and i would still send anyone to jump their. but dosent change the fact that i said quote "Not no but hell no" and the following lack of respect that i think any person should have been given.

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the following lack of respect that i think any person should have been given



Is it true that Hans let you jump his rig (rental) for free when you didn't have your own and couldn't afford to pay for the rental?

Is it also true that he gave you free jumps to shoot video on tandems that did not pay for video?

If those things are true, I think the lack of respect was on your part in that way you reagrded Hans. You may have no way of knowing this, but getting to jump rental rigs for free is not a 'regular' thing that new jumpers get. Do you have any idea how many more jumps almost every newbie could make if they didn't have to pay for rental rigs?

You may also not be aware that free slots for guys who want to 'try' shooting tandem video is not standard practice. In fact, some DZOs require the jumper to pay for a 'check out' dive with an experienced video staff member before being allowed to pay their own way on tandem jumps.

In the end, when he needed your rig to keep the ball rolling on paying video jumps, and it was going to a jumper who, despite your previous claim, had the experience and qualifications to jump the rig, you chose to refuse the request. That's some teamwork on your part, and after that and your posting it with 'questionable' details on a public forum, don't be surprised if you never get that video slot you were after.

One more thing, the guy just asked to borrow your rig, not sleep with your sister. There's nothing 'sacred' about your rig, it's just a piece of equipment. Unless you bought every stich of brand new, you have no idea what was done with your irg before you owned it. Not to mention every student rig and every tandem rig on earth that is jumped by a literal crowd of people, those rigs don't fall apart from the shame of being the biggest sluts on the DZ, and neother would yours after being jumped by one other guy.

Yes, it's expensive, but it was insured against damage or loss by a guy who owns more gear than you will ever own. Yes, it's a piece of lifesaving equipment, and I might no hand it to my 8 year od to take to school for show and tell, but it was being jumped by a jumper who knows how to care for a rig and handle it properly.

Shit, I used to work with a hippie who would literally hug his rig after every pack job, and thank it for the last jump, and he had no problem letting anyone who needed his rig jump it anytime. What do you do to your rig that you don't want any touching it?

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the following lack of respect that i think any person should have been given



Is it true that Hans let you jump his rig (rental) for free when you didn't have your own and couldn't afford to pay for the rental?

Is it also true that he gave you free jumps to shoot video on tandems that did not pay for video?

If those things are true, I think the lack of respect was on your part in that way you reagrded Hans.



So what you are saying (IF what has been told is true) that if someone wanted to borrow something from you and you said NO, then it would be OK if they had a good excuse.

Were the free jumps given with the caveat that the gear can be borrowed at anytime without permission?

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So what you are saying (IF what has been told is true) that if someone wanted to borrow something from you and you said NO, then it would be OK if they had a good excuse.



No, but so far only the OP claims to have given a clear and flat out 'NO' as a response to the request. The DZO and another jumper from that DZ describe the situation as 'reluctant agreement', and when you look at the way the OP posted this, it does look like regret after the fact about not giving a distinct 'NO', but again, that's after the fact.

I asked early on, and still have not recieved an answer, as to how the rig came to be in the hands of the borrower. The OP was present at the DZ, present to be asked if the rig could be borrowed, but somehow not present to maintain physical control over the rig? This is why I further doubt that he felt out said no. It seems very hard to believe that with the OP present, and having denied the reuqest, that Hans would just take it anyway, and that the OP would allow it.

In terms of the free gear rental and free video slots, I'm just pointing out to the OP that this is not the SOP at most DZs, and that he should take another look at how good his situation really is. To deny the request in the first place, and then air his 'dirty' laundry (with facts of arguable validity) is in very poor form, and that he shouldn't be surprised when the 'well of kindness' toward him dries up at the DZ. I can't see anyone going out of their way to help this guy out in the future.

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