nigel99 413 #1 November 21, 2013 Ok so this is a bit of a rant, along with an open mind towards learning something new... Firstly it appears that all concern about camera snag hazards have disapeared in the new era of the GoPro type camera. Stuff that bothers me 1) Cameras on full face helmets 2) Cameras with no cutaway system 3) Cameras full of snags 4) Cameras on 'poles' or whatever they are on helmets. 5) RW jumpers in a stacked up exit, their camera nicely tucked into other peoples handles! There are 10 million threads on why newer jumpers should hold off of jumping cameras that isn't the point. I have grown up in the rigid 'only an idiot doesn't have a helmet cutaway system' and MAYBE now that cameras are so much smaller it isn't such an issue. At what point do the rules (best practice) change to reflect small action cameras? I see a number of G3 helmets with Contour or Sony AS15's on the side and they are truly low profile and very low snag hazard (note low hazard != no hazard) Also things have changed quite quickly as well (certainly at my local dz). 18 months ago it was freefliers with cameras and from memory for the most part they were open face, now everyone has a camera and most are on full face helmets.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Arvoitus 1 #2 November 21, 2013 Why is it a problem to have a GoPro (or something similar) on a full face?Your rights end where my feelings begin. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FB1609 0 #3 November 21, 2013 All my camera setups have always been pretty much 99% snag proof. I always cringe at the Gopro stuff, seems to be on everyone too. Odds are slim, but they exist. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 2 #4 November 21, 2013 ArvoitusWhy is it a problem to have a GoPro (or something similar) on a full face? See item 2): Because you can't cutaway your standard fullface. Which is quite big IMO, *especially* since a GoPro (all the mounts I've ever seen) falls into item 3) category. Plus the fact that *jumping* a fullface usually means you're in a FS4 team or similar, and that brings us to item 5). ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 2 #5 November 21, 2013 nigel99 1) Cameras on full face helmets 2) Cameras with no cutaway system 3) Cameras full of snags 4) Cameras on 'poles' or whatever they are on helmets. 5) RW jumpers in a stacked up exit, their camera nicely tucked into other peoples handles! Another thing is, while an outside cameraflyer often has a not particularly snag-free setup (ie, like mine), at least an outside cameraflyer generally gets to open high and pretty much alone. This gives you more time and room when you have problems on opening. Inside cameraflyers (generally those jumpers with action cameras and very often lower-time jumpers) open at the same height as everybody else and have more jumpers around them on opening. Giving you less time and room to deal. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcordell 2 #6 November 21, 2013 Keep in mind I'm not arguing a point and have no agenda, so this is a real question, simply asked out of curiosity and to further discussion. Has there been a documented incident caused by or made worse by a go pro type camera on a helmet? How recent was the last incident of a camera tangling in lines? I've seen the old setup with a full size vhs camcorder mounted on a helmet...and I've seen slr film cameras mounted with a release. I always assumed the camera concerns were historically rooted in the huge hazard these setups posed.www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unkulunkulu 0 #7 November 21, 2013 There was a video of someone pulling another person's reserve handle on exit with his go pro. Could be very very dangerous! Thankfully it happened just after the exit and not in the door. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 422 #8 November 21, 2013 nigel99...it appears that all concern about camera snag hazards have disapeared in the new era of the GoPro type camera.... Says who?Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tilley13k 0 #9 November 21, 2013 See attachment in the first post of this thread: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=4147927; Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Divalent 121 #10 November 21, 2013 Miscellaneous observations/comments/speculations I'll toss out: - I'd estimate the percentage of fun jumpers with a camera to be ~50%. That percentage is much higher in the population of jumpers that have been in the sport for less than ~7 years (but long enough so that DZ's allow them to wear one). Not many of these cameras are on helmets with cutaways, and even fewer attached with a snag-resistant mount. - GoPros are usually mounted using a sticky tape attachment (not bolted on), and so can theoretically be detached in the event of a snag by hand, and as a first guess I'd say this could probably be done with nearly the same time and effort as it would take to activate a dedicated helmet cutaway. (My point is not that it is equivalent from a safety standpoint to a dedicated cutaway, but just to note that a snag on a typical GoPro camera is not that same as one on a camera of yesteryear solidly bolted to the helmet). - Should a cutaway be a standard feature of any new helmet? - If you were forced to jump with one or other, which would you chose: 1) A nakedly mounted GoPro on a helmet *with* a cutaway, or 2) a GoPro on a "snagless" mount on a helmet *without* a cutaway? - From my first observation above, a rough ball park is that there are almost certainly in excess of a million fun jumps a year with cameras throughout the world, very few of them mounted such that they are both snag resistant and with a helmet cutaway. Relative to the number of jumps made with cameras, there are relatively few serious incidents reported. And even fewer serious incidents where a camera on one jumper resulted in serious injury to *another jumper*. (I'm talking about incidents that occured because of snags or the physical presence of the camera; not mental distraction issues.) - Assuming that the jumper is educated in the special complications of cameras, should the desire to capture the experience with a camera be considered a legitimate way for one to seek enhanced enjoyment from the sport? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #11 November 21, 2013 chuckakers***...it appears that all concern about camera snag hazards have disapeared in the new era of the GoPro type camera.... Says who? I had to read that one a couple times - I think he's saying that "people just aren't worrying about it anymore." Not that the snag hazards have disappeared, but given the number of people wearing them with no cutaway systems, it appears that the concern people used to have about the snag hazards has disappeared."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #12 November 21, 2013 mcordellHas there been a documented incident caused by or made worse by a go pro type camera on a helmet? How recent was the last incident of a camera tangling in lines? http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3894693"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Arvoitus 1 #13 November 21, 2013 tilley13kSee attachment in the first post of this thread: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=4147927; What does that snag have to do with the helmet type? The answer is, nothing. Even if he had used an open faced helmet to mount the GoPro that snag would've happened anyway. The full face didn't contribute to that snag.Your rights end where my feelings begin. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Arvoitus 1 #14 November 21, 2013 Divalent - GoPros are usually mounted using a sticky tape attachment (not bolted on), and so can theoretically be detached in the event of a snag by hand, and as a first guess I'd say this could probably be done with nearly the same time and effort as it would take to activate a dedicated helmet cutaway. (My point is not that it is equivalent from a safety standpoint to a dedicated cutaway, but just to note that a snag on a typical GoPro camera is not that same as one on a camera of yesteryear solidly bolted to the helmet). If the sticky tape is attached correctly you have zero change of removing it by hand in case of a snag. I've removed those tapes and I've always had to use tools and significant amount of force to get them off.Your rights end where my feelings begin. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #15 November 21, 2013 ArvoitusThe full face didn't contribute to that snag. No one's arguing that full face vs. open face changes the snag hazard. It does, however, change the cutaway situation."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unkulunkulu 0 #16 November 21, 2013 The plastic mount thing breaks first, not the glue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Divalent 121 #17 November 21, 2013 NWFlyer***Has there been a documented incident caused by or made worse by a go pro type camera on a helmet? How recent was the last incident of a camera tangling in lines? http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3894693 In the context of the subject of this thread (the risk of helmet mounted GoPros), the list of incidents in the thread you linked to doesn't really support the notion that the method of mounting and the presence of a cutaway is a prevalent safety concern. I spent the time cataloging what is in that "incidence" thread, and here's the results: (the numbers refer to the "incidents" as they appear in that list, although they aren't numbered, and I may have skipped a number) Distraction (maybe scary/dangerous but no actual serious harm) 1,2,3,4,6,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16, 17,18,21,22,23,24,25,28,29,30,32, 33,34,36,37,43,44,46 (so 32 of 46 incidents) Distraction (maybe scary/dangerous and moderate injury like sprain) 5,7,45 Distraction (Scary/dangerous and some serious harm like broken bone or worse) 19,20,38* (see below) Camera's physical presence caused problem (snag, etc) but no serious harm to jumper 26,27,31,35,39 Camera's Physical presence harming another None listed (but there was that one where a gopro ended up deploying the reserve of another that wasn't listed in the thread) Camera was or alleged to be involved in serious injury or Fatality 41*,42* (see below) "NOT AN INCIDENT" (photo/video of bridle near, but not catching, on a camera) 40 For the incidents listed with an asterisk (*), heres some further information: *38: Fatality. No mention of camera or snag at all in the actual incident thread. (wingsuit, chopped: hard landing under reserve) so the link to a camera is unclear. link to the fatality thread: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4381398 *41: ~200 jump swooper had toe mounted camera; pounded in sustaining serious injuries in a deliberate HP landing attempt. Some experienced jumpers speculated in the thread that the camera might have been a distraction. In any event, this was not a helmet mounted camera and not affected by the mounting method link to the injury thread: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4378030 *42: Apparently jumper's main snagged on camera mount, and the (very experienced camera flyer) spun his main all the way to the ground (speculation is that he was incapacitated by the helmet snag upon deployment). Link to the fatality thread: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4386002 So with respect to the physical features of a camera and it's mount (and helmet types) over the last 5 years, I don't think the number of serious incidents are all that many, relative to the number of jumps being made world wide. The issue of distraction is always at play, but that is there even if you have a snagless mount on a cutaway helmet (or a chest or foot mount). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #18 November 21, 2013 a top mount GoPro on a G3 seems like a lot less of a concern than my old open-face Rawa with a side-mount DV camera and ring-sight that I used to jump back in the day... everyone who jumps a camera accepts some additional degree of risk... it goes with the territory... personally I ditch my RSL when I'm flying a camera so there's extra risk right there on top of the potential camera snags... I use nylon fasteners for the ring-sight though so that's getting torn off if a line hits it the only people I really even saw with cutaway systems for chin-straps were the ones that had really big flat top camera rigs with double cameras for competition jumps in case one failed or big DSLRs with heavy glass with all the cameras on the DZ, I don't even bother to jump one anymore, I just grab other people's videos at the end of the day and focus on flying now if you're worried about people pulling your reserve handle with a camera get slim soft ones like the freeflyers do... at some point you're just trading one set of risks for another though... there are a bunch of variables that you really can't control on any particular jump, I had a new jumper literally punch me in the face recently on exit, I don't think she even noticed...NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 422 #19 November 21, 2013 NWFlyer******...it appears that all concern about camera snag hazards have disapeared in the new era of the GoPro type camera.... Says who? I had to read that one a couple times - I think he's saying that "people just aren't worrying about it anymore." Not that the snag hazards have disappeared, but given the number of people wearing them with no cutaway systems, it appears that the concern people used to have about the snag hazards has disappeared. I understood what he meant, but that hasn't been my experience. Where I do LO work we have the "snag factor" conversation often and encourage jumpers to know what to do if they get a snag. Anyone who doesn't have a plan for the day a line gets hopelessly snagged on a mini-cam is foolish and unprepared.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 38 #20 November 21, 2013 Check out this video - go pro's don't rip off easily. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsEI_6cErbM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #21 November 21, 2013 chuckakers I understood what he meant, but that hasn't been my experience. Where I do LO work we have the "snag factor" conversation often and encourage jumpers to know what to do if they get a snag. Anyone who doesn't have a plan for the day a line gets hopelessly snagged on a mini-cam is foolish and unprepared. Gotcha. I'm glad that you're driving those conversations. I know there are lots of folks out there who are doing the same. So far I've chosen not to use a camera at all myself, so don't consider myself an expert in the setup/cutaway options, but I do know who to send people to to have a discussion about the pros & cons. I need to make a point of doing that more often, especially as I'm starting to organize regularly. "There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grue 1 #22 November 21, 2013 Arvoitus*** - GoPros are usually mounted using a sticky tape attachment (not bolted on), and so can theoretically be detached in the event of a snag by hand, and as a first guess I'd say this could probably be done with nearly the same time and effort as it would take to activate a dedicated helmet cutaway. (My point is not that it is equivalent from a safety standpoint to a dedicated cutaway, but just to note that a snag on a typical GoPro camera is not that same as one on a camera of yesteryear solidly bolted to the helmet). If the sticky tape is attached correctly you have zero change of removing it by hand in case of a snag. I've removed those tapes and I've always had to use tools and significant amount of force to get them off. Maybe YOU have zero chance. When I got my new helmet and was retiring my old one for all intents and purposes, I decided to see how much force it'd take to tear it off. I put the camera into the mount, put the helmet on my head, and reached up to tear it off. I'm not gonna say it was like opening a can of coke but it wasn't like trying to lift an SUV, either. If you try and pull straight off you might not succeed, but I went to the side and it wasn't really that big of a deal.cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 413 #23 November 21, 2013 Chuck, It's been my experience that snags are no longer treated seriously. So saying 'no one' is an exaggeration. I'll give an example USPA will not publish photos if they are not taken by a member, but the previous issue of parachutist had half the jumpers in full face helmets with standard go pro mounts, big old thumbscrew plainly visible on some.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 413 #24 November 21, 2013 Thanks Peter, You've nailed the heart of what I was looking for. So the question becomes what is 'right' the old mindset, or are action cameras now low enough risk that the technical concerns can be ignored? My honest feeling is that luck is playing out and that the old mindset is still correct, despite being unpopular. A large part of why I believe this is because the extended pole mounts are becoming more mainstream (look at the,recent team gopro video on ABC).Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airbigdaddy 0 #25 November 21, 2013 nigel99Chuck, USPA will not publish photos if they are not taken by a member, . Where did you get that information? Unless things have changed unbeknownst to me, that is not true. While they may try and lean toward picking member over non-member pics, there's no ban on printing non-member pics that I know of. Fairly off topic, but thought I'd point that out. Just my $.02.-Lambert- "It's better to be looked over than overlooked." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites