Newbie questions: stability, WL, etc.

[KevinP 0]

Hi all,

For those that didn't see my intro thread, I'm a total newbie. I have 18 static-line jumps (military T10B. Now that's old-school) and exactly one tandem jump.

Question 1: Now, my tandem instructor did applaud me for my body control on exit and during freefall, but I was a 200lb guy strapped to a 200lb guy, so what do I know. Anyway, I'm watching videos on youtube with some rough looking first- and second-time AFF students who are totally out of control. Now, I may not know enough to know what I don't yet know, but a common scene is that they all look the same: really tense and on the verge of panic. From my military jumping days, I know that body position played a big part of riser twists and we were trained to keep our body position stable, but not stiff.

Can anyone give some feedback? I'm not looking for a class. When I get to my AFF class, I know the instructor will tell me what to do, but maybe just some pointers or guidance on what NOT to do.

Question 2: I have been looking at gear and terminology related to it. I understand that wing loading is the term that describes the ratio of canopy size to jumper weight. So, as a guy who weighs about 195 in shorts/shirt no shoes, I figure I'll weight between 220 and 225 exit weight. Does that necessarily mean I want to start with a canopy that is in the close neighborhood of 220 sq ft?

Question 3: As it stands, my top picks for containers are either the Odyssey or Mirage G4 and main canopy being a Sabre2-230. Any input on these? Anything in particular to stay away from regarding any gear?


And lastly, question 4: Can someone describe the different input controls? I have read references to rear risers vs. brakes. I thought the brakes pulled down the trail edge of the canopy. And steering? Accomplished by pulling on which edge? Any input is appreciated!

I sincerely appreciate your time. I have literally dreamed about skydiving every night for over a week. What sucks is that I am six months out from starting the AFF program (I have a school to go to in Arizona, then off to another duty station, at which I will get underway). I may have to do another tandem in the meantime. :)

Kevin
Thanks!

Sincerely,
Kevin

[SFJason. 0]

I'm sure I will not be as helpful as some here on the board but I can chime in about what helped me through my aff. The best advice I got to help me was smile, when smiling your not tense so naturally your body loosens up. As for containers, parachutes, wingloading I would just worry about passing aff. I was told by a mentor of mine to rent canopies untill 40 or 50 or so jumps to get a better idea what you want. Hope this helps and good luck from another newbie. Welcome!

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

Generally...

Simply listen to your instructors, and do as they say.

KISS (keep it simple ). Don't over think this!!! You can make yourself crazy trying to over learn this before your AFF class.

Stability: the two secrets are to RELAX and smile.

Canopy and other gear: STOP!!!!! Your AFF lessons include gear rental. There is nothing to be gained and lots to be lost by buying before AFF.

Regarding canopy controls: Brakes (aka: toggles) pull down the rear edge of the tail of the canopy. Pulling down the rear risers pulls down the rear half of the canopy. Either can be used to make turns and to flare for landing. Brakes are easier (and safer) for beginners to use. Using rears to flare for landing has significant risk of stalling the canopy.

Here is the very best thing I can tell you:

SMILE, BREATHE, RELAX!!!!

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

Additional thoughts:

Regarding canopy controls:

Front risers and shifting weight in the harness can be used to turn the canopy too.

If you are going to be in Arizona for a military school... Consider getting to the vertical wind tunnel at Skydive Arizona between Phoenix and Tucson. Of course, doing AFF in AZ would be cool, but PRE-AFF tunnel time would be a great investment of time and money. (If you are forbidden to jump while in school... Maybe the tunnel would be acceptable.)

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[skyrider 0]

Your going to breeze threw, relax, listen to your jumpmasters...You are already asking the smart questions, so I have no doubt you will do great!

[riggerrob 558]

Yes, your previous military jumps and one tandem will vastly reduce your nerves, making it much easier to focus during AFF.
A little time in the wind tunnel in Eloy, Arizona will also help your performance during AFF. Foreign military special forces operators routinely train at Eloy, Marana, Yuma and some other DZ that I am not supposed ot mention on public forums.

[JohnMitchell 14]

Hi Kevin,
Well, I'll stick my neck out and try to answer a few of your questions. Keep in mind that a good First Jump Course will cover everything you need to know on your first jump. Please do yourself and your instructors a favor by not ad-libbing anything in your skydive based on what you read online.

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Question 1: some rough looking first- and second-time AFF students who are totally out of control. Now, I may not know enough to know what I don't yet know, but a common scene is that they all look the same: really tense and on the verge of panic. . . . we were trained to keep our body position stable, but not stiff.

Yep, you're right. A relaxed arched position is what you will be taught. "Relax" is the 3rd most common body position correction, after "arch more" and "stick out your feet more."

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Question 2: , I figure I'll weight between 220 and 225 exit weight. Does that necessarily mean I want to start with a canopy that is in the close neighborhood of 220 sq ft?

The minimum I'd put you on would be the 220-225, and that would be on a windy day. Until I see you jump a few times and how you respond under canopy (squares fly and land much more differently than rounds. Yes, I've jumped both.) I'd put you on a 240-260 just to make sure you had a nice soft landing for your first bunch of jumps.

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Question 3: As it stands, my top picks for containers are either the Odyssey or Mirage G4 and main canopy being a Sabre2-230.

Slow down and get off student status first. There'll be plenty of time for gear shopping and you'll have a slightly better idea, or your instructors will, of what you need. Just about all containers do a good job. I feel there aren't any dangerous rigs on the market anymore. I like my Infinity.

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And lastly, question 4: Can someone describe the different input controls? I have read references to rear risers vs. brakes. I thought the brakes pulled down the trail edge of the canopy. And steering? Accomplished by pulling on which edge? Any input is appreciated!

For your first bunch of jumps, you will control the canopy by pulling down on the brake, or steering, toggles. They are handsized nylon loops located on the rear of the rear risers, just above your head. Pull on the right one, you turn right. Let it back up, you fly straight. Left one turns left. Pull them both down at the same time and the parachute will slow down its forward speed and its rate of descent for a few seconds. This is called "flaring" and you'll be trained to flare your canopy right before you land, so that you'll land softer.

BTW, we say "brake toggles" and "steering toggles" interchangeably. It's the same handles. Used one at a time, you steer; used both at once, you brake. Get it?
You can steer by pulling down on the rear risers instead of the toggles. It's not as efficient and takes more muscle, so don't mess with it right now. There are some reasons for learning to fly your canopy that way, but save it for later jumps. You'll have plenty of time to experiment with that later.

Have a great time on your jump. Do it in the air just exactly the way they have you practice it on the ground. You've got a nice head start with your AirBorne jumps. I hope to be on a load with you sometime.

[KevinP 0]

Thanks for all the input. And just to make sure everyone is tracking, I'm not in a hurry to buy a rig. Not even close. I am the type person that researches for a LONG time before dropping $5,000 plus on something. So, I started poking around, read as much as I could to learn about what does what and the characteristics of each component and started looking at specific products. No, the only equipment I will buy early is a suit, an altimeter and a log book. Hey, I'm paying $1500 for AFF 1-7. I'm going to use everything that comes with it.
I appreciate the little class on the terms and affects of these components have on the canopy. When I was in jump school (again, way back in '87), we also jumped MC1-1 canopies that had steering toggles. They were okay, but made for some rough landing sometimes. And I am very familiar with using risers to control the canopy. We called it slipping (pull the front right to "pull a right slip"). And when we landed, we pulled both sides of the "upstream" risers. If falling to the right, you pull both right front and right rear and so on. I ramble. Sorry.

I'm just so incredibly stoked about going again that I want to talk and ask and interact. I have watched probably a hundred skydiving videos on youtube in the past week or so. I sure hope the next six months go by pretty quickly. I'm not one to wish life away, but I think you all understand.

And I will check out the wind tunnel in Arizona. Sounds like a great idea, actually. Get a feel for stability at speed before I'm 10K off the ground. :) And tandem jumping is allowed during school. I gotta see about that.

Thanks again for your time!

Sincerely,
Kevin

[skycamefalling 0]

Before I started my AFF, I did about 20 minutes in the tunnel. The first 8 min or so in the tunnel, I did horrible. I felt that if I was going to be like that during my training....I would be in deep shit. So I went back for another session and did great. So I think the tunnel is very helpful prior to AFF. Also, before my traning, I went and bought a few things. I purchased my altimeter, log book, pair of Sorz goggles and some gloves. I just figured that since I was getting myself in to skydiving for the long haul, might as well get some of small stuff out of the way then. Couple months later, bought a helmet. And just recently, bought a rig. Focus on your training right now and do not worry about the rest until later on.

Arch, relax and smile......doing all 3 of those means that you will be having fun, which will make your training enjoyable instead of stressfull.

Blue skies

Speedracer~I predict that Michael Jackson will rise from the dead.
And that a giant radioactive duck will emerge from the ocean and eat Baltimore.

[bluetwo 0]

Arch. Don't try to swim because you'll just flail, roll over or spin. Of course I'm not qualified to tell you much more than that but I say most importantly: trust the arch. It'll put you belly down and keep you stable.

Once you start progessing you'll see what the different inputs do a little at a time just I'm learning now. Blue skies!!

edit: Definitely get some tunnel time if you can afford it because it is an AWESOME learning tool. De-arching to slow down and penciling out to track will come later but you can definitely see what how things work in a tunnel. (obviously I'm NOT saying learn to track in a wind tunnel. If any of you thought I was saying that for even a second you should slap yourself silly).

_______________________________________

[skycamefalling 0]

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Arch. Don't try to swim because you'll just flail, roll over or spin. Of course I'm not qualified to tell you much more than that but I say most importantly: trust the arch. It'll put you belly down and keep you stable.

Once you start progessing you'll see what the different inputs do a little at a time just I'm learning now. Blue skies!!

edit: Definitely get some tunnel time if you can afford it because it is an AWESOME learning tool. De-arching to slow down and penciling out to track will come later but you can definitely see what how things work in a tunnel. (obviously I'm NOT saying learn to track in a wind tunnel. If any of you thought I was saying that for even a second you should slap yourself silly).

Damn.......I just slapped myself

Speedracer~I predict that Michael Jackson will rise from the dead.
And that a giant radioactive duck will emerge from the ocean and eat Baltimore.

[Bertt 0]

Two points. You can get good used gear for less than 5000 bucks, and used is the way to go for most people. Start looking at the classifieds here, but don't buy anything until you get some jumps and talk to your local riggers and instructors.
Second, you say you are familiar with using risers. Using risers to slip a round canopy is not at all the same as using risers to steer a square canopy. Someone, (maybe John), said that you would use steering toggles at first. Part of getting your A-license is learning what effect the front and rear risers have, but you want to have a good explanation from an instructor before you do this. The effects will be quite different from what you're used to.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[skyrider 0]

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Two points. You can get good used gear for less than 5000 bucks, and used is the way to go for most people. Start looking at the classifieds here, but don't buy anything until you get some jumps and talk to your local riggers and instructors.
Second, you say you are familiar with using risers. Using risers to slip a round canopy is not at all the same as using risers to steer a square canopy. Someone, (maybe John), said that you would use steering toggles at first. Part of getting your A-license is learning what effect the front and rear risers have, but you want to have a good explanation from an instructor before you do this. The effects will be quite different from what you're used to.

I've never paid more than 12 hundred for complete rig...due to that fact, I have 3 rigs complete an ready to jump...but they don;t match my suit, helmet, shoes, underwear, but they are mine, bought and paid for!

[popsjumper 2]

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...but they don;t match my suit, helmet, shoes, underwear, but they are mine, bought and paid for!

I'm appalled, 'Rider!
You know that half of flying good is looking good!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[davelepka 4]

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the only equipment I will buy early is a suit, an altimeter and a log book

Amend that list to just a log book. There are a dozen different options when it comes to altimeters, and you have no idea what you will like until you jump some of them. You'll be provided an alti for all of your student jumps, and most DZs make them available along with rental gear, so you really don't need to hurry up and buy one. Jump what the DZ has, and look around at what other jumpers are using. Ask to borrow whatever looks interesting, and see how you like it 'for real', on an actual jump, then buy whatever you like. Most alti's are in stock somewhere, so you can have one in your hot little hands in less than a week once you make a choice.

The suit is another story. There are 100's of choices to make when buying a suit between picking a manufacturer, a type of suit, type of fabric, what cut you need and what options you want. Again, put some jumps on the suits the DZ provides, and see what works for you. The suit does far more than just protect your clothes, so you need to select one very carefully.

See what you're instructors put you in for the first couple of jump, then talk to them about why they chose what they did. Once you're jumping solo, you'll still be able to use the DZ's suits, so try a couple of others and see how that goes. Again, look around the DZ at what everyone else is using, and ask them what they like or dislike about it. It's pretty tough to jump someone elses suit, so that's probably out, but asking questions will go a long way.

In the end you'll need assistance to get properly measured, and your best bet for success is to find a dealer for the manufacturer you select. They'll know how to measure you the right way, and will be able to consult with you regarding your choice of options.

Planning ahead and research are always good, but in the end you need to just show up and jump. The FJC, AFF, and the A license program are designed to make a skydiver out of someone with zero knowledge when they walk in the door, so everything you need to know will be included.

Be sure to 'back burner' all of your research and pre-study when you do get started, because there are ten different ways to do everything in skydiving, and the only one you need on your mind is the one the DZ is training you to use. If your instructors are expecting you to act in one way, and you fall back on something you read online, you might have a problem. The best way to make sure everyone is on the same page is to start with a clean slate, and just do it the way they teach. Once you have a license, and are jumping on your own, you can look back at what you researched, compare it to what you were taught, and consult with your instructors as to why there is a difference between the two.

[KevinP 0]

Good info all around and I sincerely appreciate it. I was looking at altimeters the same way I look at watches. I prefer analog, so I figured my taste in altimeters would follow suit. Although there are some really nice ones out there that perform more than just height. Makes them appealing for sure.

As for watching what others are doing at the DZ, well, in all the videos I have seen from any DZ in Hawaii, jumpers have been in shorts and t-shirts. It that is the norm, I will be the odd one out. When I ride my bike, I wear full leathers and draw quite a bit of attention. I tend to use whatever gear a particular activity requires for the best risk mitigation.

Again, thanks for all the input. I was actually surprised to hear that a suit is more than just protection for skin and clothes on those butt-slides. Haha

Sincerely,
Kevin