Max Safe Exit Weight

[Imanewdiver 0]

I am hoping to jump in Northern CA next month with an AFF program. I have read a lot of forums on max jumping weight but see various answers. Simple question, I weigh exactly 266 on my Doc’s scale in shorts. I ASSUME my rig w my jumpsuit will weigh 35 Lbs bringing my exit weight to 301 Lbs. My question is will a 281 PD Reserve rated at max weight of 300, and a Navagator 300 with max weight of 325 Lbs be safe to learn on? Secondly will a 300 Lb exit weight / 300 SqFt canope = a wing load of 1:1 and be satisfactory to learn on? Thanks in advance for your help.

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

Don't forget that the harness/container system must be rated to equal or exceed the load rating of the reserve.

The other topic which will be fun to watch in this thread is if the instructors are willing to take a fast-faller like you into AFF freefall. You will only be able to get that answer from the insrtuctors themselves.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[Imanewdiver 0]

I have spent a lot of tunnel time with my instructor and we fly well together. I jump a Bev camera suit that has a nice wing to low down my speed. My rig is fine according to the mfg, I visited them and was measured as well. Thank you.

[TiaDanger 0]

Have you thought about losing weight before starting AFF? Somebody on here would have been bound to ask you that question sooner or later. I've read of many instances where the motivation to jump drove many big guys to lose weight.

And for the record: the appropriate ranking of cool modes of transportation is jet pack, hover board, transporter, Batmobile, and THEN giant ant.
D.S. #8.8

[Anvilbrother 0]

what kind of container are you using?

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[Imanewdiver 0]

Mirage g4

[Imanewdiver 0]

Tia, Thanks and yes I have been trying and started at about 290 lbs. Not a fast process. However I have been 260 - 290 for 25 years and its tough to teach an old dog new tricks. I am a ski instructor so I am quite active, just big (and a little fat).

[Hooknswoop 19]

The Mirage is placarded to 150 MPH. No weight limit is placarded. (Low-Speed Category)

The Vector/Micron has no placarded weight or speed limit. (Standard Category).

TSO-C-23B.

Derek V

[Imanewdiver 0]

So how does one know the FF velocity with a camera wing in belly down flight? Unlimited weight at 150 mph, I would guess that belly down flight for a big guy like myself would approach that speed?

[Hooknswoop 19]

It isn't unlimited weight, put enough weight in the harness and it won't hold together. It is just that they do not have placarded weight limits, so you can't legally go over the weight limit.

As for airspeed, there are altimeters that measure it and store that information.

Derek V

[Imanewdiver 0]

There in lies the problem. How do i know if I will exceed the velocity if its my first jumps? I assume (perhaps wrongly) that the wing is slowing me down to a reasonable speed due to my ability to fly with my tunnel instructor.

[diablopilot 2]

The simple answer is no. No one in their right mind will ever advise you to jump over the max TSO'd, or manufacturers recommended max weights.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Imanewdiver 0]

Thats the point, I dont think that I am. Close but not over? Does that make it any less safe? If my exit weight is +/- 5 lbs of the rated rate am I toying with disaster?

[davelepka 4]

Quote

How do i know if I will exceed the velocity if its my first jumps? I assume (perhaps wrongly) that the wing is slowing me down to a reasonable speed due to my ability to fly with my tunnel instructor.

Your instructor could probably give you good idea od the speed. They should know how fast the tunnel was going, and your instructor could probably guess based on his jumpsuit, body position, and skydiving experience.

I would be surprised if you were exceeding 150 mph. For one, your instructor would have to either be very heavy, or in a very different body position to stay with you. Also, did i read correctly in another post that you have previous skydiving experience? If that's the case, your arch probably won't be an exaggerated student arch, but more relaxed (flatter) like an experienced skydiver. Combine that with a little wing on your suit, and you should be well under 150 mph.

You could easily be at 130 or 140, and this is something to think about in terms of your deployment. That's a lot of airspeed, and it might 'firm up' your openings. Maybe bring this up with the packers, and have them take extra care to slow up your openings. You might even see if they can rubberband your slider up to your C line attachment point, just to be sure. Ask and see what they say.

Make sure at least one of your AFF instructors is wearing a data recording altimeter, and let us know how fast you end up going.

[mark 102]

The 150mph limit is for the aircraft, not the jumper. (Ref: NAS 804 para 4.2.1)

However, the OP says that he's planning an exit weight of 301 for a reserve that's TSO'd to 300 pounds. He's already over the limit, so he's asking if it's okay for a student to be a test jumper.

Plus the estimate of 35 pounds for breakfast, shoes, helmet, jumpsuit, radio, altimeter, goggles, and rig is unrealistically low.

Mark

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

Hi Derek,

NOTE: This is not to be negative towards you.

And I do not speak for the FAA; I'm not authorized to do that.

The actual placarding req'ment for the Low Speed category is:

LIMITED TO USE IN AIRPLANE UNDER 150 MPH

This gets us into the gray area. IMO you could use it in an airplane that does not go over 150 MPH but you could exceed that as a freefall speed.

Now, I would not recommend doing so.

This is a real problem for the 'larger' folks but it is not something to be taken trivially. A harness failure will almost always result in death.

Just my $0.02 of input . . .

JerryBaumchen

PS) To the OP: Please err on the conservative.

[MarkBolton 0]

It has been my experience big people break things, like lines, risers and soft links.
You are really, really pushing things.
While you may be able to fly in a tunnel with your instructor, that might not equate to real life.
Many young jumpers inexplicably dump while still in a steep track, or get unstable and head down when they just can't find that boc. I don't know that you or your gear will survive that unscathed at your weight.

[Imanewdiver 0]

Thank you for your honesty. The young part, well if 50 is young then thank you. I do have about 75 -100 jumps from 1977 - 79 with a T10 so I am hoping that Im over the freek out factor, but how do you know until then. Still trying to find my old log book to get an exact count. I am in the rescue world (high angle, low angle, Medic, and dive rescue) so I HOPE I can contain the freek out factor, but you never know.

[Imanewdiver 0]

I would love to know if any 250 Lb jumpers experiance broken lines, risers, and containers due to there size. I want to fly, I dont want to get hurt.. However if the PD rig is rated at 325 Lbs Max and Iam at 300 ish exit weight am I stupid to start jumping again?

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

So far this discussion has focused on max suspended weight. While this is critical to keep the rig from being damaged by overloading, that is not the only weight issue.

There is the question of flight characteristics. The PD reccomendations for students under these canopies are a max exit weight of 289 lbs for the Nav 300 and 281 lbs for the PD-R 281. So even if you don't damage the canopies, you may find making safe landings challenging.

Remember.… a safe landing is the definition of a good jump!

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[Imanewdiver 0]

Thank you for that, and yes, I agree they show advanced skills for flying and landing at that weight. When I was first told I could not fly in the tunnels due to my size I was upset, but understood. I flew to a "big" high powered tunnel and learned to fly well there. Once I did that I had to send my videos to other tunnels to show them I was safe, or OK to fly because someone gave me a chance. Now with 7 hours in tunnels I feel great in by belly flying. It appears here its not confidence, that I am lacking, its brains. Perhaps I need to go the tandem chute modified by a cert rigger and special container. Yet I see many people jumping chutes that wing load very high. I do greatly appreciate the advise, and perhaps I should be smart enough to give up this dream.

[mark 102]

Quote

I would love to know if any 250 Lb jumpers experiance broken lines, risers, and containers due to there size. I want to fly, I dont want to get hurt.. However if the PD rig is rated at 325 Lbs Max and Iam at 300 ish exit weight am I stupid to start jumping again?

The PDR-281 is rated for 300 pounds, max. Not 300-ish. 300. max. That is the legal limit. If you exceed 300 pounds, you expose everyone associated with your jump (instructors, pilot, dzo) to additional liability. Why would you do that to your friends?

Mark

[Imanewdiver 0]

Thanks Mark, I agree, I first of all dont want to hurt myself, and expose others to problems. The 300 ish is that I dont really know what the gear weight is. So if its 30 Lbs Im at 295 exit. But my fear is if 295 is Ok and 305 is not, thats pretty thght tollerances. Do you step on the scale before each jump at a DZ? If all suited up I was 295 would your answer be NO PROBLEM? Then its a legal thing and I understand. As a double engineering major I would find 10 Lbs much of a difference when it comes to the rigging and design of the equipment. Once again I thank you for your candid response.

[pchapman 261]

My comments, not because I know better than anyone else, just because I see a few things missing from the conversation so far:

I wouldn't worry about the PD recommendations for students or novices or whatever for nice flying main and reserve. That's all about the ideal, and the canopies will fly just fine loaded a bit higher, or even a lot higher. It's just more challenging for a novice. Sure, that makes it tougher to learn and adds a little risk, but is something that wouldn't be a problem with more experience. No big deal.

The Mirage TSO: It's an old TSO style so bizarrely there's no max weight given. Most rigs are traditionally certified for 254 lbs only, and as you'll have seen in searching other threads, a few have been certified or recertified up to 300 lbs.

However, the Mirage isn't basically built any different than any other rig. (That's at the level of understanding of skydivers, rather than manufacturers.) I don't know if rigs certified to more weight are really built any differently either, or if they have a few subtle changes and extra stitches here or there. A good question.

So is the harness OK? Probably. I'd make sure it is in good condition, not something getting old and frayed an losing strength compared to when it was built.

Risks overall? Tough to say. There is some extra risk for the really big guys, flying closer to the certification limits of the gear. I think you'll want to stick to belly flying to keep the speeds reasonable! At least the PD reserve is really well respected and solid.

Expose everyone to legal liability if over the limit? Well maybe, but it's not like skydivers never break rules a little anyway. It isn't likely something most jumpers would worry about. (Although that can be unfair to pilots, who are always the 'buck stops here' guys in the eyes of the FAA.)

Do big guys break equipment more?

Harnesses in good repair, generally no. Or any damage is slow enough it can be seen. (E.g. on one modern rig a small batch of hip rings were sub standard. A few did get bent slowly over jump after jump and the company fixed the harnesses. This only happend for a few big guys I heard.)

Main risers? Mini risers: Pretty rare nowadays with better riser designs than in the 90s. Still, safer to stick to the unfashionable big wide risers not the narrow 'mini risers' Manufacturers recommend not using the latter over 200 lbs, but that's ignored.

Lines?
More of a chance I'd guess. Keep lines in good condition.

Reserves? I can't recall any real problems, except:
- Overloaded round canopies in the old days
- The couple Ravens broken by big guys at extra high speed - probably or possibly outside the certification limits - those were specific runs of canopies of certain years with canopy attachments that were later modified for more strength. Big stink in the late 90s but you'd have to check the details.

Keep looking for more opinions on all this stuff as I can't be definitive.

You on a good solid big PD reserve canopy sounds good, at normal belly speeds, but there's significant risk if one were say tumbling unconscious and going faster and had an AAD fire. That could be getting out of certification conditions. Little one can do about that other than going to military or tandem style rigs.

[heavydude 0]

I think you may need a bigger rig. When I did AFF at Perris I used a Nav280 to start and an MC4 container, and at the time I was at 230 LB.
I am thinking that an MC4 and a small tandem chute would be better for you. When you are starting AFF you want a real slow landing canopy as that will be a handful. After the first couple of jumps you can go to the 300 in my opinion. My first AFF jumps I had standup landings which were nice, followed by many PLFs.
When I started solo jumps I went to a Triathlon 260, even that in no wind landings was fast ! Take advantage of the biggest canopy that you can. 200 jumps later I am glad I was very conservative in canopy size. As a larger person I think it is really good to master the PLF. Allot of people comment that you should just lose weight, we know how that works,,, at my lightest I was doing Triathlons and half marathons at 225 Lbs. Good luck and remember Skydiving is all about having fun and being safe, all you gottat do is survive the landings.
Oh and by the way get a jumpsuit designed for your mass, it will make a real difference in your fall rate.
If you can go to a wind tunnel to practise falling slow.
I really felt sorry for my AFF instructors having to wear big weight belts, yours will too !
Of course Im not an Instructor so its just an opinion.