Top Ten Phrases from the Incidents Forum that Annoy Me

[Muffie 0]

I’m not jumping right now so have read about two years of the incidents forum in the last month to see what I could learn and I’ve learned a ton as a result, but it’s been a sometimes painful process. So, after reading my umpteenth “nothing to learn” here comment, I finally decided to put together this little list and my reason for being annoyed. Not meant to offend anyone, but if it does, apologies in advance.

Top Ten Phrases from the Incidents Forum that Annoy Me:
1. “Nothing new to learn” This may be true for the poster, but generally isn’t true for everyone reading the incidents forum. For some of us, this is the first low hook turn fatality we’ve read about, so let us learn even if you aren’t. Also, generally there are some unique factors in each situation that warrant some discussion.
2. “Don’t speculate. Someone who knows the facts will come on here and tell them when the time is right.” First, I’ve learned more from the random speculation on the incidents forum than I ever would have learned from some dry recital of the facts of each incident. Through speculation I learn about three or four things that can go wrong rather than the one thing that may have actually happened. Second, this hardly ever happens (kudos to those who do try to post as complete an account as possible, but generally it doesn’t happen). Third, from what I’ve seen it’s rare that anyone ever truly knows exactly what happened even with video and first-hand accounts.
3. “I would never…” or “No one would ever…” If you read enough of the incidents and you stay at this long enough it seems that anything is possible. Never forget your parachute? It’s been done. Never misroute your chest strap? Seems to happen a lot. And making an absolute statement like this doesn’t further the conversation, it just invites lots of people telling you you’re wrong.
4. “That was negligent” or “That was criminal.” I’m no lawyer, but it seems to me that these are very loaded terms with very particular meanings and legal definitions. And in two years of incidents I have yet to see one that was so well-document, undisputed, and clear that an allegation like this can be made without it being inflammatory or debatable. It doesn’t further the learning experience and just creates bad blood.
5. “Every skydiver (even a brand new AFF or SL student) should know or should be able to…” Not true. I’ve seen a lot of these. Like “every skydiver should know everything about the plane they’re jumping out of.” Sorry, but I was a little more concerned on my first few jumps about having the right gear, exiting ok, getting a good body position, practice touches, altitude, the frickin’ wind in my face, pulling, finding the landing zone, approach altitudes, steering my canopy, landing into the wind, flaring, etc., etc., etc. No one is born doing this and not everyone learns everything there is to know about a sport before they enter it. I drive a car every day, but don’t ask me how the engine works. It just does. Not saying that’s right, just saying that it’s easy after years in this sport to think that everyone should know when they start what you know after years of experience.
6. “He was the safest,” “the most experienced,” the most “heads up” guy…usually followed by some sort of statement that proves that no, he was not. “He was the most conservative swooper I knew. He didn’t move to a Katana 120 until he had 300 jumps and he didn’t start doing 180s until well over 500 jumps.” I can appreciate that it’s tough when someone you know or respect or care about is the subject of an incident thread and when people are calling him an idiot or questioning his ability, but it undermines everything you’re trying to say about the guy when you say something so absolute like that about someone who just had something go seriously wrong. By all means, contribute your personal knowledge, but just do it without the absolutes. For example, “I’ve seen him do approximately 100 180s and in those 100 jumps I never saw him have to dig himself out of the corner” and then try to help us understand why this time may have been different. Like, “Well, he did just downsize, maybe that changed things.”
7. “We can’t change this. It’s the way it is. It’s too hard. Too much effort. This is the last bastion of freedom and I won’t let you take that away from me.” Why shut down legitimate discussion about how to make the majority of our lives a little safer while doing something that is inherently fatal before you mitigate the risk? Maybe nothing comes of it in the end, but a kneejerk refusal to consider better ways of doing things benefits no one. And too much of this thinking may one day lead to someone outside this sport telling you exactly how to fix your “problems” even though they don’t have a clue about how it all works and then you really will have lost that freedom.
8. “I know how to break the chain of events – never skydive in the first place.” We’re all involved in these discussions and reading them because we want to skydive and we want to hopefully find a way to learn from the mistakes of others before we do something that kills or breaks us. So, if you know this is a b.s. argument that doesn’t further the conversation then why make it?
9. “I have the right to do whatever I want to do because I paid for the jump ticket.” No, you don’t. You don’t have the right to endanger the entire load by exiting the plane in such a way that you could take out the tail and kill everyone on board. You don’t have the right to land in a crowded landing area against the agreed pattern because you want to. You have chosen to be part of a community and by jumping at a drop zone with other jumpers you have to some degree accepted responsibility for their safety as much as yours. By acting without regard to anyone else you jeopardize yourself, others, the continuing operation of that drop zone, and the entire sport as it currently exists. If you want to do crazy shit and try to kill yourself, find some guy with a plane, go to the middle of nowhere and jump out of a plane all by yourself. But if you choose to jump at a drop zone you have a responsibility to the others that are jumping with you. We all do.
10. Bringing personal gripes, innuendo, old hatreds into the discussion. Unless something is a proven fact and is directly relevant to the discussion of the incident, leave the drama out of it. It just riles people up and derails the discussion. If you want to gripe about someone, start a thread somewhere else about how “Joe Smith is at it again,” but don’t ruin the learning opportunity for everyone else by turning it into a mudslinging fest.

Just my .02 as a n00b who's trying to learn and doesn't have any skin in the game yet.

[jclalor 12]

Nice, very good observations. My personal favorite "Nothing new to learn here" Now get ready to be pummeled by all the guilty parties.

[Bryguy1224 11]

I believe you forgot "They won't be trying that again".

[peek 20]

Good post, and you make a good point that experienced skydivers forget that novices do not understand all the technical details.

I don't think anyone will give you any trouble at all for posting that, but fill out your profile in case they do, hee, hee, hee....

[wmw999 2,116]

You forgot "I was there but I don't have permission to post"

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Hvance 0]

Nice thread. I agree with everything I read there.

I wish Google Maps had an "Avoid Ghetto" routing option.

[SethInMI 145]

Awesome, Muffie. Well researched, well written, well formatted!

My personal favs:

1. "Nothing new to learn"
8. “I know how to break the chain of events – never skydive in the first place"
10. Bringing personal gripes, innuendo, old hatreds into the discussion.

The sad thing is that all this sort of shit keeps people from posting about injuries, and posting details about all incidents, and the community is poorer for it.

It's flare not flair, brakes not breaks, bridle not bridal, "could NOT care less" not "could care less".

[grimmie 173]

Start writing your acceptance speech, as that was the best post by a newbie jumper of all time.

Bravo.

[lauraliscious 0]

I agree. Excellent thread. I would love to see it as a sticky at the top of the incidents forum.

Enemiga Rodriguez, PMS #369, OrFun #25, Team Dirty Sanchez #116, Pelt Head #29, Muff #4091

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Nicely written. Good points made. No apologies necessary.

My personal annoyance is the "Don't Speculate". I've learned more from the incorrect speculations than the actual correct causes.

The "If it was this, then that is how to handle it". Even when it turned out this wasn't the cause for the accident, I was still able to take the that and apply it.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[popsjumper 2]

Great post!

One note about the "Nothing new to learn (here)"...
To be fair, it is sometimes used when the thread gets hijacked by side issues and personal attacks.

Quite often the intent of the thread is lost by petty bickering and arguing. Asking those who are sidelining the thread to get back on topic does no good at all.

Sometimes, IMO, I think it would be better to close down the trashed thread and re-start a new one that gets back onto the subject at hand.

Or, better yet, get the mods to do a better job of filtering out the BS.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

The "If it was this, then that is how to handle it". Even when it turned out this wasn't the cause for the accident, I was still able to take the that and apply it.

Excellent!
Excellent!
Excellent!

THIS, my friends is how speculation can quite often be a good thing.

I would only say that maybe there is a better place for speculation than in an incident thread being read by affected family...in a "spare them the grief" sort of way.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[billvon 2,380]

Good points. A few comments on them:

>5. “Every skydiver (even a brand new AFF or SL student) should know or
>should be able to…”

While there are things that it is indeed unreasonable for new jumpers to understand (i.e. how to calculate aircraft W+B) often one thing we learn from incidents is that skydivers _don't_ know something they need to to keep them safe. Even from more experienced jumpers we see people who do not know how their Skyhook works, or do not know how to figure out exit separation.

>“He was the safest,” “the most experienced,” the most “heads up”
>guy…usually followed by some sort of statement that proves that no, he
>was not.

Yeah, it can be tough to accept when someone you see as a very safe skydiver has a problem. Sometimes people tend to think that it's unfair for bad things to happen to safe people, and they tend to exaggerate their attention to safety to make sure that people understand that it's unfair. (And of course occasionally the person really _is_ one of the safest people around - but odds are often against that.)

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

Just my .02

That's #11 !

[Muffie 0]

Andy - too true! Definitely picked that one up from reading these forums.

Well, glad to hear people liked it (and that if anyone was miffed they spared me the attacks). Also, glad to see some further insight into some of the items via posts and PM. Obviously, some of these are context specific. So, for example, the "no more to learn" is annoying when it's post three or four, but legit when it's on page 5 after things have devolved into chaos.

Peek-I'm such a newbie I really have nothing to put in my profile yet! No license, no gear of my own, no interests other than skydiving. (At least no one decided that made me a troll, a lawyer, or a reporter...).

Wendy P - also a good one!

Popsjumper - I wondered about that, too - taking speculation elsewhere to get away from the feelings involved in the incident but to still encourage discussion. Maybe next time something happens (which will hopefully be a while) we can try something like, "I've started a thread on the possible causes of hard openings in the safety forum - here's the link if people want to discuss." It may help everyone learn from an incident without anyone thinking it's a personal discussion of the jumper, the rigger, the DZO, etc. Or maybe that just splits the discussion up too much? May be worth a try...

Well, hope a bunch of you are jumping this weekend. I envy you!

[format 0]

Not many could put this post together as it is.
"n00b" you're not.

Excellent stuff

What goes around, comes later.

[skyrider 0]

The number one phrase that annoys me?

"This is your one warning, Cut it out"!

[Anvilbrother 0]

Nice post man!

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[riggerrob 558]

"Just saying ..."

What the BLEEEP does that mean?????

[mik 2]

Agree entirely - great post

Also, what I find annoying is the "I know stuff but am not posting" plus the condolences that are posted here ... often not addressed by the moderators....

***********************************************
I'm NOT totally useless... I can be used as a bad example

[Muffie 0]

Riggerrob - I assume you're referring to this comment "Not saying that’s right, just saying that it’s easy after years in this sport to think that everyone should know when they start what you know after years of experience."

Basically, I meant that I'm not trying to defend the fact that as a new jumper there are lots of things that I and others like me should probably know. But, that the amount of information you absorb after years in this sport can seem so fundamental after a while that it's hard to remember that it wasn't that way when you started and that we newer jumpers don't know everything we should know.

For me, reading the incidents forums it made me realize what I hadn't considered in terms of the plane I was flying in and the role of jumpers and the pilot at various points of flight. Also, there was a discussion of rotors that was much more detailed than I had learned yet because I jump somewhere that has few buildings and obstacles.

Also, there's the "who on earth wouldn't know that they need to pull" comments. My first tandem AFF jump I lost altitude awareness. I did my practice touches and then I looked around because it was a gorgeous day and suddenly we were at 6,000 feet and I was supposed to have locked on at 7,000 feet and pulled at 6,000 feet. My JM pulled and I redid the jump. I like to think I would've pulled long before the ground, but knowing that you need to pull and doing so at the right time and altitude are different.

My first jump with my own rig, I kept moving when I reached for the hackey and missed it. I KNEW I needed to pull, but that didn't make me move any less. And it certainly didn't make me automatically think - right, now go to EPs because I can't find that hackey. Fortunately, I was doing AFF and had someone there to pull for me so I could make it to the ground and learn that lesson.

Not moments I'm proud of and if I'd been jumping solo I very well could have gone in on the second one if I hadn't gotten my head out of my ass. So, for me, having made that mistake, I can see how someone doesn't "know" the most basic thing they should. And I can assure you that after that first jump I stay very altitude aware and after that second jump I make sure I know where my hackey is long before pull time. But, maybe the only difference between me and that 16-year-old Russian kid who went in with no pull on his second jump may just be that I had someone next to me in freefall and he didn't. Who knows?

[riggerpaul 1]

Quote

"Just saying ..."

What the BLEEEP does that mean?????

It is about the same as $.02.

[Andy9o8 0]

I get ticked at:

>"Refrain from speculating".
No. It's how we figure it out. And in the long run, it saves lives. If it upsets you, then don't read the thread.

>"The jumper's relatives will read this thread. Please don't say things that will upset them."
No. Then they shouldn't read the thread.

>"Shh! The family's baby-eating lawyers will read this thread! You'll just give them ideas!"
Uh, if they have ideas, they'll get them anyway; and there are plenty of experts and literature for them to consult. Nothing that something posts on fucking Dorkzone will give a lawyer a "Eureka!!" moment he wouldn't already have.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

11. He died because he didn't pull. End of story.

[skyrider 0]

Quote

I get ticked at:

>"Refrain from speculating".
No. It's how we figure it out. And in the long run, it saves lives. If it upsets you, then don't read the thread.

>"The jumper's relatives will read this thread. Please don't say things that will upset them."
No. Then they shouldn't read the thread.

>"Shh! The family's baby-eating lawyers will read this thread! You'll just give them ideas!"
Uh, if they have ideas, they'll get them anyway; and there are plenty of experts and literature for them to consult. Nothing that something posts on fucking Dorkzone will give a lawyer a "Eureka!!" moment he wouldn't already have.

"Proof that Lawyers read this shit!"