Letter from the tandem manufactors over underage tandems

[Andy9o8 0]

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Wolfriverjoe's post #66 is the correct answer, as to all points.

As a grad student in law school, for the sake of your clients I hope in reality you know better and your just being provocative..

Uh, no; I stand by my my point(s). The skydiving point I said as a skydiver. The legal point I made is applicable to the current state of the law law in the US and its various states, which I said as a US lawyer.

There are other skydivers on these boards; and there are even several other US lawyers who are on these boards, too. By all means, have them read all of the posts in this thread, and then ask their opinions.

[djvelour 0]

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That is all good, however this is where we don't agree 100%. I totally respect your rights as a dad to refrain from allowing your child to not partake in this high risk sport and you have every right to do so.... What I don't agree on here is USPA or MFG telling me I can't take my 14,15,16 year old should I choose to allow them to do so.

What I believe people fail to recognize when discussing this thread, is the role of our own government in this issue. Whether you like it or not, as a parent you are not the only one legally responsible for the well-being of your child...the U.S. government has also determined that they share responsibility for all citizens under the age of moral majority.

The classic case involves parents who for religious reasons choose to fore go modern medical treatment. In these cases the government will sometimes force medical treatment for the well-being of the child and in extreme cases charge the parents with child endangerment. Despite the parents freedom of religion, the state's responsibility to care for citizens that might not otherwise be in a position to protect themselves supersedes. One must only look to that horrible video of a five-year old skydiving to see exactly why this is the case.

You as a parent may wish to take your child skydiving, but as our society has evolved, the government has determined it has a responsibility to protect minors....even if it means protecting them from their own parents.

Just as the government has a right (responsibility) to remove a child from an unsafe situation created by a crack-mother, the government has the legal authority to dictate which actions may be deemed improper for minors.

It is for that reason that waivers will likely never apply to those under the age of moral majority and why they should not skydive. Yes they may be capable of skydiving, but the government basically does not recognize them as such. Truly the equipment manufacturers have more to worry about than simply civil liability lawsuits, for if an minor was injured or killed, potentially all parties could be charged with child endangerment. If that 5 year old died in tandem, everyone any way connected would be arrested immediately...and as far as the law is concerned there is no difference between a 5 year old and a 15 year old.

As a personal aside, I find the attitude of parents who think they know better than the USPA, government, manufacturers, etc to be truly disgusting. There is no good reason whatsoever (other than a dying child) that the minor can't wait a couple years to make a skydive. Impatience can kill. Your child's life is not your possession, it is your responsibility.
-Sammy

[rhys 0]

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As a personal aside, I find the attitude of parents who think they know better than the USPA, government, manufacturers, etc to be truly disgusting. You child's life is not your possession, it is your responsibility.

I know this discussion pertains to the taking of minors in the USA, due to the manufacturers ratings.

But if a child wishes to skydive and conciously knows what they are doing, and the parents agree, by rights that child should be allowed if it is not against thier will.

But with laws in place preventing this from being legal, then it is best to aid the manufacturers and avoid jumping minors in the USA.

It is a shame, but it is the situation.

Fortunately we are not so inhibited, I took a 10 year ofl Iranian boy just yesterday with his parents. He knew what he was up to, and did really well and enjoyed it.

You can watch here;

Soheil's jump.

A few weeks ago we had a large indian group of families where half a dozen children jumped, almost all enjoyed themseleves except for one that told me she didn't want to jump, I asked her if she was sure, she said she really did not want to jump, (she was fine up until then but in the plane after her brother had left she confronted me).

I landed with her in the plane and her parents understood completely and they all still had a great time, the girl was a little upset but she was never made to do domething she was not comfortable with.

If you treat children like adults, you will find that many of them are more adult than many of those so called adults that I see posting on here.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[jclalor 12]

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But if a child wishes to skydive and conciously knows what they are doing, and the parents agree, by rights that child should be allowed if it is not against thier will.

What about the thirteen year old child in Utah that agrees to be married to her fifty year old uncle? She may know what she is doing and her parents may give her permission, yet society has regonized that some decisions are not to be left to a child, regardless of what the parents think.

[djvelour 0]

Truly I can begin to understand your viewpoint. As the proud father of an amazing 14 year old, I am constantly surprised by her maturity and ability to handle complex (both physically and emotionally) situations.

However I also recognize that authorities with infinitely more combined experience than I, have determined that underage skydivers (both tandem and solo) is not
a) good for the sport
b) good for the minor

Above and beyond the lawsuits of tandem manufacturers, the USPA has long been unwilling to recognize and support underage skydiving. Though this is in part due to fears of litigation, the USPA's fears are also grounded in true safety concerns.

Even if one were to concede the point that it should/could be ok for a parent to dictate the readiness of their child to skydive it begs the question how young is too young. I think almost all would agree that a 5-year old is much too young to tandem/solo, as a child at that age has no reasonable capacity to understand the long-term consequences of his/her actions.

So perhaps if I feel my 14-year old is particularly equipped to tandem/solo...she should be permitted?

I say tandem/solo, because really we are talking about the same thing. Either way the child is placing their life in the hands of the fabric above their heads.

Without doubt a certain part of me applauds you for introducing a young 10-year old to the amazing world we have witnessed, but I have question for you which I believe cuts ultimately to the point of whether minors should be allowed to tandem.

Would you have allowed the young 10-year old Soheil to AFF train and eventually permit him to solo jump as a 10-year old? I could be wrong, but I would guess that even you would say that he is too young to solo (if a rig and parachute could even be made...but dammit it would be cute as hell). And if he is too young to solo, should he really be tandem jumping?

(Though this does not apply in AU) Point being, as far as waivers are concerned, and therefore skydiving, a parent cannot be the arbiter of his/her own child's maturity level. The U.S. government has dictated the age of maturity in most cases to be 18. Certainly there are mature children who could likely "handle" skydiving. Exceptions to the rules exist, and they may be disadvantaged and have to wait as a result, but to allow any other system would be to invite free form chaos. I have yet to hear of any credible argument as to why a healthy 15 or 16 year old cannot wait a couple of years to skydive.

-Sammy

[rhys 0]

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What about the thirteen year old child in Utah that agrees to be married to her fifty year old uncle? She may know what she is doing and her parents may give her permission,

What a fucked up comparison. But I guess you have a fucked up scenario where that actually happens there.

Going skydiving at thirteen and marrying a thirteen years old are completely different.

Skydiving is more akin to riding a motobike, go karting, paintball.

Marrying at that ageis somthing quite different. It is most certainly against the law here.

You also have a federal law against marrying at 13 do you not?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

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Without doubt a certain part of me applauds you for introducing a young 10-year old to the amazing world we have witnessed, but I have question for you which I believe cuts ultimately to the point of whether minors should be allowed to tandem.

Would you have allowed the young 10-year old Soheil to AFF train and eventually permit him to solo jump as a 10-year old? I could be wrong, but I would guess that even you would say that he is too young to solo (if a rig and parachute could even be made...but dammit it would be cute as hell). And if he is too young to solo, should he really be tandem jumping?

You are correct in your assumtion, I do not think the 10 year old would be responasible enough, more important accountable enough to undergo AFF training or static line training.

Teaching emergency procedures etc etc, is much more complex than a tanedm jump, I was in control of the situation the whole time regardless of what he did with that tandem.

With solo training it is a completely different story.

I guess this comes back to the debate about whether tandem training is about teaching someone to skydive or giving someone an experience/thrill.

I go for the latter as I KNOW many people that wish to tandem skydive, have no desire to jump solo, and without tandem, may not ever jump at all.

Tandem is an introduction to the sport, and also a teaching tool, it can be used for either or both.

It is up to each individual to decide what aspect interests them the most.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[djvelour 0]

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You are correct in your assumtion, I do not think the 10 year old would be responasible enough, more important accountable enough to undergo AFF training or static line training.

I agree with you that doing a tandem jump is different in that a tandem jumper generally has little to no impact in the successful outcome of a skydive. However, I would also posit that if one would not consider a child responsible/accountable enough to undergo AFF training, then how responsible/accountable can their decision to make a tandem jump really be? Can most 10 year olds truly understand the risks they are choosing to incur in making a tandem skydive?

I guess my question is if one cannot trust a minor to make rational and competent decisions regarding emergency procedures, can one trust that same minor to make a rational and competent decision in choosing to risk making a tandem skydive?

It's just my opinion, but personally I don't think so (and neither does the U.S. gov, for better or for worse).

-Sammy

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[rhys 0]

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I guess my question is if one cannot trust a minor to make rational and competent decisions regarding emergency procedures, can one trust that same minor to make a rational and competent decision in choosing to risk making a tandem skydive?

You could ask the same about a roller coaster or any paid adventure activity.

It simply comes down to the legislation surrounding the activity.

If the USPA would step up to the plate and make some rules, that may end this debarcle. Instead they are half assed about it and leave the weight on the manufacturers shoulders.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[popsjumper 2]

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If the USPA would step up to the plate and make some rules, that may end this debarcle. Instead they are half assed about it and leave the weight on the manufacturers shoulders.

I'm curious...what could USPA do to remove manufacturers from exposure to the lawsuits?

As far as I can tell right now...nothing.

So, if I'm going to be vulnerable, I'd like to have a say-so in what's going to expose me. I'd be totally surprised if manufacturers went along with any USPA scheme that attempts to remove control from them.
Ted's reasoning is on solid ground.

If USPA wants to make a rule, let it be age-dependent on the laws of the state in which the jump is made with respect to age of majority. Simple as that.


To everyone:
All those guys complaining about Bill taking his kid...so what? I somehow don't think Bill would have been suing his own company had something gone wrong.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[piisfish 135]

children under 18 should not be allowed to be passengers or drivers of a car or a motorbike either. And they should bicycle only inside a foampit

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[popsjumper 2]

All you guys focusing on the abilities of the kid are missing the point of it all entirely. That has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand.

You're wasting a lot of time and effort and bandwidth.

All you guys talking could-a, should-a, would-a...what have you got that will resolve the issue?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[chuckbrown 0]

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What contracts do you sign when you buy a litre of milk? It's a bit more involved for a house or a car (or the loans involved in their purchase) or other major purchase.

Well, I was moreless asking this question from Andy since he has a law degree. As a lawyer Andy most likely understands my question.

There are many actions in everyday life the general public doesnt see as contracts, but anyone who understands the basics in contract law will know better. Buying milk from a shop is a contract. It is a sales contract.

Contract law states that minors are incapable of contracting below a certain age. That doesn't mean they can't engage in transactions, such as buying a candy bar, but it does mean that they can repudiate an executory contract when they reach the age of majority. In other words, a waiver signed by a minor places the drop zone at unacceptable risk should the minor be injured. When the minor turns 18 (or whatever the age of consent is in the particular state), the injured party is now able to repudiate the contract and sue for damages.

The analogy to a sales transaction is not appropriate. Once the milk is purchased & consumed, the contract is complete & the minor can't repudiate it. With respect to skydiving, once the minor is injured, he's legally able to repudiate it and seek redress for his injury.

[timmyfitz 0]

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But if a child wishes to skydive and conciously knows what they are doing, and the parents agree, by rights that child should be allowed if it is not against thier will.

What about the thirteen year old child in Utah that agrees to be married to her fifty year old uncle? She may know what she is doing and her parents may give her permission, yet society has regonized that some decisions are not to be left to a child, regardless of what the parents think.

Wow. That's quite a leap you made there.

[Andy9o8 0]

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Skydiving is more akin to riding a motobike, go karting, paintball.

Even with all legalities aside, you know better than that. Motorbiking and skiing, for example, have some possible risk of death. But skydiving has a particularly enhanced risk of death quite unlike unlike almost every other activity. I don't even have to say the long version of this (I hope); we all understand it (or should).

Re: jumping a 10-year old: I feel there is no way anyone that young could truly make an adequate risk-versus-reward assessment of the enhanced risk of death inherent in skydiving. Personally, I think jumping a 10 year old is criminal child endangerment, in any country.

I noted up-thread that if the age of legal majority were lowered a couple of years, I'd have no problem advising my skydiving industry clients to let kids jump down to the youngest age of majority. But developmentally, there is an age below which kids just don't qualify to properly appreciate and assess the risk-versus-reward. It's a grey area, and necessarily arbitrary because not all kids are alike, of course. But for this reason alone, I'd have trouble with letting anyone under about age 14 or 15 skydive.

[skypuppy 1]

Would you have allowed the young 10-year old Soheil to AFF train and eventually permit him to solo jump as a 10-year old? I could be wrong, but I would guess that even you would say that he is too young to solo (if a rig and parachute could even be made...but dammit it would be cute as hell). And if he is too young to solo, should he really be tandem jumping?

(Though this does not apply in AU) Point being, as far as waivers are concerned, and therefore skydiving, a parent cannot be the arbiter of his/her own child's maturity level. The U.S. government has dictated the age of maturity in most cases to be 18. Certainly there are mature children who could likely "handle" skydiving. Exceptions to the rules exist, and they may be disadvantaged and have to wait as a result, but to allow any other system would be to invite free form chaos. I have yet to hear of any credible argument as to why a healthy 15 or 16 year old cannot wait a couple of years to skydive.
________________________________________________

I have been told by some that regularly take underage passengers that while they will take young children on 'occasional' tandem jumps, they will not allow them to begin solo progression until the age of 14. This is in order to allow their inner ear to fully develop...

As to why they should not wait a couple of years, I again point to the Canadian National 4-way team. This team has performed well at many world meets despite the youth of its latest members (first Vincent a few years ago, then Benoit). Why hold back an athlete capable of medalling at a world meet for a couple of years, and risk losing the chance to compete? (the team consists of 3 sons and their father)

There are several other instances of extremely young competitors at national and world meets doing very well and having an awful lot of jumps for their age (another example would be Scott Borghese, perennial Cdn style/accuracy champion and team member, who beat me in an accuracy comp when he was 16).

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[skypuppy 1]

To everyone:
All those guys complaining about Bill taking his kid...so what? I somehow don't think Bill would have been suing his own company had something gone wrong.
_______________________________________________

You miss the point -- in certain cases if Bill and the passenger were incapacitated due to injuries sustained, the State could assume guardianship and sue the company and/or estate for damages in order to pay for supported living for the passenger for the rest of her life....

A dz was sued by a provincial gov't in Canada for compensation for treatment after an employee was injured.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[BMFin 0]

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Contract law states that minors are incapable of contracting below a certain age. That doesn't mean they can't engage in transactions, such as buying a candy bar, but it does mean that they can repudiate an executory contract when they reach the age of majority. In other words, a waiver signed by a minor places the drop zone at unacceptable risk should the minor be injured. When the minor turns 18 (or whatever the age of consent is in the particular state), the injured party is now able to repudiate the contract and sue for damages.

The analogy to a sales transaction is not appropriate. Once the milk is purchased & consumed, the contract is complete & the minor can't repudiate it. With respect to skydiving, once the minor is injured, he's legally able to repudiate it and seek redress for his injury.

Yes. Minors cannot sign waivers. I know this also, and this we agree on.

However, it is not true that minors couldnt be a part of any kind of contracts like Andy said. This is my point. There are many occasions where a minor can make some small less significant contracts. Such as buying a candybar from a shop.

But like I said, this is a little off topic.

About the topic at hand, I wouldnt see this tandem jump any different than allowing your 5 year old start driving motocross or participating on some other "risky" sport.

[skyrider 0]

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But if a child wishes to skydive and conciously knows what they are doing, and the parents agree, by rights that child should be allowed if it is not against thier will.

What about the thirteen year old child in Utah that agrees to be married to her fifty year old uncle? She may know what she is doing and her parents may give her permission, yet society has regonized that some decisions are not to be left to a child, regardless of what the parents think.

As much as I am "pro" kids jumping, you make a very good point, you open one gate, all the cattle can get out!

[Andy9o8 0]

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About the topic at hand, I wouldnt see this tandem jump any different than allowing your 5 year old start driving motocross or participating on some other "risky" sport.

It's just painful to see how many experienced skydivers - who should know better! - say this. What part of "skydiving has an enhanced risk of death unlike just about any other activity" do you people not understand?

At some point, you either get it, or you don't.

[fencebuster 7]

+1

Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures

[skyrider 0]

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About the topic at hand, I wouldnt see this tandem jump any different than allowing your 5 year old start driving motocross or participating on some other "risky" sport.

It's just painful to see how many experienced skydivers - who should know better! - say this. What part of "skydiving has an enhanced risk of death unlike just about any other activity" do you people not understand?

At some point, you either get it, or you don't.

I understand the "risk" enough, and Know My son well enough to know that he would as safe as any skydiver!

Death is always a risk in his sport(free riding) If I was so stupid as to not know that, I should not be allowed to be his parent!

What do you want?

raise kids in a box? treat them like Veal?

[Andy9o8 0]

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What do you want?

What I want is for kids under about 14 or 15 to not skydive, anywhere in the world, because 95% of them are not yet capable of making a mature assessment of the inherent risk of death particular to skydiving, versus the reward. The fact that maybe 5% of them may have this capacity at such a young age does not change my opinion.

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Death is always a risk in his sport (free riding)

I understand that. And as I keep saying over and over, in a sport like that, a serious accident might very well kill the participant... or it might not. But in skydiving, you are dead the moment you leave the plane unless you get enough parachute over your head before impact. If you go in with nothing out, or have a catastrophic high-speed double malfunction of your gear, you're dead. Period. Hardly any activity other than parachute jumping has quite the same inherent risk of death.

[popsjumper 2]

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What do you want?
raise kids in a box? treat them like Veal?

Of course not! But OTOH...
Well, turn it around and you have...


Two extremes...neither of which are valid.
Neither of which address the topic of the thread except to maybe say that there has to be an acceptable middle ground.

Manufacturers have set that middle ground according to what best suits them....and rightfully so, IMO.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[fasted3 0]

I guess, but it's a shame to close the door on kids having fun; I mean older ones, like 16 and above.
Legal bullshit calls the shots, I get it.
My daughter, (remember her?) did static line jumps at 16. I signed the waiver, but only because she convinced me that she knew the risk and wanted to do it anyway. I was not a jumper then, but still would have honored the waiver; I knew that I signed.
I was living on my own shortly after turning 17. I don't know who would have signed a waiver for me, lol.

But what do I know?