AAD Save impressions/statistics

[nigel99 143]

I was thinking about this last night. We all (should) know that all an AAD does is cut the reserve closing loop.

From reading the forums my impression is that there is somewhere between a 60 and 80% chance that if your AAD fires you will live. My guess is that alot of AAD saves don't get reported so the "true" figure is probably in the high 90% range.

So from the people who are at busy dz's what is your anecdotal feeling on the statistics? Just to lay a few common ground rules:

1) AAD not switched on doesn't count either way.

2) Interested in AAD induced fatalities or injuries, for example swoopers killed or injured by an reserve deployment (non-injury doesn't count)

3) A misused AAD or misrigged AAD counts as a non-save. For example the recent incident where the closing loop might have not been routed the cutter.

4) going in where the dz is at a higher altitude than the activation altitude is included as a non-save (misuse of the device)

I am interested to here the anecdotes and evidence as a lot of people place so much credence on the AAD and yet my feelings are that it doesn't do as much as people give it credit for. For example I am aware that an AAD firing when you are perfectly stable may not save your life as your PC is caught in the burble - I am not suggesting anything is changed I know that the parameters have been carefully considered and are most likely the best compromise.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[skypuppy 1]

2) Interested in AAD induced fatalities or injuries, for example swoopers killed or injured by an reserve deployment (non-injury doesn't count)


having the shit scared out of you and an aching wallet don't count as injuries?

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[nigel99 143]

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2) Interested in AAD induced fatalities or injuries, for example swoopers killed or injured by an reserve deployment (non-injury doesn't count)


having the shit scared out of you and an aching wallet don't count as injuries?

I thought swoopers had balls of steel?

In a way you are right there is the whole arena of the AAD tried to kill you but failed. In which case you would need to include 2 outs from low deployments that complete without injury.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[NWFlyer 2]

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2) Interested in AAD induced fatalities or injuries, for example swoopers killed or injured by an reserve deployment (non-injury doesn't count)

Anecdotal impression for sure, but I would think that a two-out because of a low pull would be a more likely scenario than a two-out on a swoop, particularly now that we have AADs with swoop mode and we have the knowledge of how high-performance maneuvers can trip the firing parameters of an AAD.

Granted, if a two-out situation occurs at the end of freefall, you have more time to address it than if it occurs during a canopy maneuver close to the ground, but I've been on the DZ for a few AAD-induced two-out scenarios (all occurred at the end of freefall, not during a canopy maneuver), and watched one go really bad.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[nigel99 143]

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but I've been on the DZ for a few AAD-induced two-out scenarios (all occurred at the end of freefall, not during a canopy maneuver), and watched one go really bad.

That is the kind of information I was looking for. Now to be picky and out of interest how many "good" AAD-induced two-out's have you witnessed?

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[NWFlyer 2]

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but I've been on the DZ for a few AAD-induced two-out scenarios (all occurred at the end of freefall, not during a canopy maneuver), and watched one go really bad.

That is the kind of information I was looking for. Now to be picky and out of interest how many "good" AAD-induced two-out's have you witnessed?

I don't really know - maybe half a dozen? It's hard to keep straight the ones I saw vs. the ones I heard about vs. the ones that weren't AAD-induced (only one or two of those, I think). The one linked above is the only one that went to hell - all others ended up with a safe landing under one or both canopies.

edit to add Of course, you know any info you get here is going to be anecdotal and hardly statistically significant.

I think about AADs the same way I think about seatbelts even though I don't have the same data to back up my feelings about AADs (where there's great data to back up seatbelt use). There's a very small chance the seatbelt itself will cause an injury or death, but it is far outweighed by the likelihood that the seatbelt will keep me from dying or being seriously injured. So I use my seatbelt, and I choose to use an AAD.

I don't change my driving habits because I have a seatbelt (I still drive like a granny to minimize the likelihood that I'll cause an accident, and I drive defensively to minimize the likelihood that I'll be involved in one caused by someone else.). Same goes for skydiving.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Zlew 0]

Most get reported because with all of the new style AAD with cutters (not pin pullers) it is almost impossible to hide it. Upon repack there is no hiding the cut loop or the fired cutter that has to be replaced. It is not something as easy as not saying anything to anyone and having a repack.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

I have seen 4 saves (2 students, 2 experienced), 1 slow cutaway fire, 4 low pull induced 2 outs and one swoop activated 2 out (student mode).
no injuries.

[godfrog 2]

I once watched an AFF student in a no pull get saved by an AAD, and also at a boogie I was under canopy and watched as somebody went by me in freefall, I locked my eyes on him and watched until he pulled, the same time the AAD fired and he had 2 out.
Funny thing was he absolutely insisted that the AAD had malfunctioned and fired to soon. I told him I was well below 2000' when he went by me in freefall.

Experience is a difficult teacher, she gives you the test first and the lesson afterward

[chutingstar 1]

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Most get reported because with all of the new style AAD with cutters (not pin pullers) it is almost impossible to hide it. Upon repack there is no hiding the cut loop or the fired cutter that has to be replaced. It is not something as easy as not saying anything to anyone and having a repack.

Must get reported to who? Yes, a local rigger or jumpers may know of a AAD fires, but there is no requirement for reporting to one person, company or organization. Some get "reported" somewhere...some don't.

Mike

ChutingStar.com

[cocheese 0]

Stats are nothing. Having an AAD when you need it is everything.

If it works, bonus,... if it does not, then I wouldn't worry too much about it.

[popsjumper 2]

My impression is this:

By far and away, ADDs will do the job they are designed to do unless one does something to interfere with that process.

Yes, it has happened that the AAD did NOT do its job
- cutter did not completely cut the loop.
- activated at a point outside of its design parameters

But those instances are, in the big scheme of things, rare.

In that respect, I would venture a success rate well above 99% all things considered.

IMO, problems arise when the AAD is not used properly.
a) not armed (speaks for itself)
b) not installed properly (speaks for itself)
c) intentionally operated outside design intent
-swooping where speed and altitude parameters are exceeded.
-set for student mode when operated at expert or pro parameters
d) unintentionally operated inside design parameters
-fuselage compression issues
-low pull

...and other situations.

In a nutshell, install it properly, use it properly and fly it within set parameters and it is good-to-go.
Hence, my 99% rate gut feeling.

...and to repeat once again what has been said over and over and over again yet still gets ignored...
Don't Ever Depend On A Back-up Safety Device.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Andy9o8 0]

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IMO, problems arise when the AAD is not used properly.
a) not armed (speaks for itself)
b) not installed properly (speaks for itself)
c) intentionally operated outside design intent
-swooping where speed and altitude parameters are exceeded.
-set for student mode when operated at expert or pro parameters
d) unintentionally operated inside design parameters
-fuselage compression issues
-low pull

...and other situations.

...one of those other situations being: turning the AAD on at a different location - which has a different elevation - than the DZ. This can cause it to activate either too high or too low, depending on the difference in elevation.

[nigel99 143]

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In that respect, I would venture a success rate well above 99% all things considered.

IMO, problems arise when the AAD is not used properly.
a) not armed (speaks for itself)
b) not installed properly (speaks for itself)
c) intentionally operated outside design intent
-swooping where speed and altitude parameters are exceeded.
-set for student mode when operated at expert or pro parameters
d) unintentionally operated inside design parameters
-fuselage compression issues
-low pull

...and other situations.

In a nutshell, install it properly, use it properly and fly it within set parameters and it is good-to-go.
Hence, my 99% rate gut feeling.

...and to repeat once again what has been said over and over and over again yet still gets ignored...
Don't Ever Depend On A Back-up Safety Device.

Thanks Pops. I don't mean to imply that AAD's are either super-reliable or not (as the case may be).

My personal view is that they are a fantastic invention and anything that reduces the chance of a fatality while not substantially contributing risk or complexity to the user is a good thing. I am not suggesting that a backup device should be relied upon.

IMO, problems arise when the AAD is not used properly.

As so many people don't appear to completely follow the manual and design parameters (of virtually any product) I still see this as part of the equation. IF someone stays within the expected normal parameters they are safer.

Finally I realise I shouldn't have used the word statistics as that really requires hard data and a decent sample size to have any meaning. Two or three deaths a year with an active AAD are hardly a statistically significant sample.

BTW - on my first free-fall I KNEW that would not pull the ripcord. I was absolutely convinced that when I stepped off the wheel I was dead. Strangely the one thing that gave me a bit of confidence was that there was full cloud cover below us (non US jump - before anyone worries about FAR's) and I reassured myself that if I got to cloud I would pull! The jump was more typical of a first freefall from static line progression though - the jump master had to worry about the pilot chute getting stuck in the plane. I know that at stage of my jumping life an AAD would have reduced my mental stress and probably have made me a safer jumper as a result.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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BTW - on my first free-fall I KNEW that would not pull the ripcord. I was absolutely convinced that when I stepped off the wheel I was dead.

Was your first freefall without an AAD? Mine was too. I remember the jumpmaster building up my confidence by saying "Remember, John, when you leave that plane, you're a DEAD man until you pull." Sure got my attention.

[nigel99 143]

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BTW - on my first free-fall I KNEW that would not pull the ripcord. I was absolutely convinced that when I stepped off the wheel I was dead.

Was your first freefall without an AAD? Mine was too. I remember the jumpmaster building up my confidence by saying "Remember, John, when you leave that plane, you're a DEAD man until you pull." Sure got my attention.

Yes first freefall was on a C9 with a belly reserve and no AAD.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.