I ain't going to say nothing.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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All we're saying is that as experienced jumpers, we shouldn't be FORCED to wear aads on our own personal rigs if we don't want to....

I can go along with that. I just felt Twardo, great guy that he is, was playing a little loose with the numbers. AAD's have done such a good job of reducing bounces that the canopy deaths now take the lead. Not that that's a good thing either. I'm really concentrating my efforts on reducing those numbers too.

I think most of the arguments against AAD's are as fallacious as arguments against seatbelts and motorcycle helmets.

[DiverMike 5]

Quote

...one school owner who thought it would be more of a burden to his competition then to him, and lobbied for it.

As it pertains to AAD's I will give DZO's the benefit of the doubt that they want to make the sport safer rather than squeeze out the competition.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[azureriders 0]

Quote

If you want a cheap sport, why not bowl instead of go to a DZ? (question is just as dumb)

Off topic and I apologize, but the above comment always makes me laugh. Obviously made by someone who does not have a wife who maintains a 195 bollowing average and bowls tournaments all over the south. Oh, and she jumps too

[skypuppy 1]

If you want a cheap sport, why not bowl instead of go to a DZ? (question is just as dumb)
_________________________________________________

Actually, this comment is unbecoming from a moderator....

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[skypuppy 1]

As it pertains to AAD's I will give DZO's the benefit of the doubt that they want to make the sport safer rather than squeeze out the competition.
__________________________________________________

And what would base that on? I've no doubt that maybe some of them have that in mind, or at least in the back of their minds. But I also have no doubt at all that striking out at business competitors any way they can is exactly what you'll see from many dzo's.

I would guess you've never served on the board of a skydiving organization. The in-fighting and competition between dzo's is a matter to be ashamed on our board and in some committees. I've heard this from many different board members....

If you look at the last few fatalities in Canada, you'll find most occurred despite the fact that the jumpers had aads on.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[skypuppy 1]

...one school owner who thought it would be more of a burden to his competition then to him, and lobbied for it.

__________________________________________________

And to give you a further idea of why I think it isn't all safety, this dzo who allegedly lobbied for a while for the new rules on a/c and parachuting operations figured he could get around them because of the way his business was configured was later found to flying his
a/c in deficient condition. How's that for safety?

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[DiverMike 5]

Quote

And what would base that on?

My naive belief that people are generally good?
Leave it alone and let me cling to it, otherwise I will become yet another bitter twisted DZ forum poster.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[proswooper 2]

Peanut

I am the new (to Skydive Alabama) DZO that has made the AAD rule FOR PEOPLE WITH LESS THAN 500JUMPS.

You are not affected by the rule and I implemented it for safety reasons for the younger jumpers. when we took over the dropzone. At the same time we have committed hundreds of thousands of dollars towards increasing the fun jumper population by bringing in a faster bigger plane, building cabins for people to sleep in on the weekends, a tiki bar, new padded carpeted packing area just to mention a few. We are also working with the airport on trying to get heating, air and insulation in the hangar.

You have a choice, but I hope this helps it.

[Airman1270 0]

PRO CHOICE---- on AADs, They can save you, and they can kill you.

[billvon 2,384]

>Yet there is a growing element in the sport that gets its panties in a wad
>over people who don't jump often, use older gear, and/or don't use an
>AAD. These people seem to enjoy imposing their personal preferences on
>the rest of us.

It's not growing. It's massive and has been here for a long time. Those same people are the ones who want you to take a skydiving course before you start skydiving, who want you to use a reserve, who want you to give them enough time on exit, who don't want you to do bigways until you're ready, who want you to follow a consistent pattern, who don't want you to swoop downwind, who don't want you to do demos until you have the right experience and training etc etc. In other words, the assholes who have been there since the beginning of skydiving trying to make the sport a safer one (and more often than not succeeding.)

>Unless, of course, they ban those real small fast mains. What is the
>point of requiring an AAD (based on concern for their customers' "safety")
>yet allowing their customers to jump tiny little parachutes that must be
>flown JUST RIGHT in order to avoid serious injury or death?

It's an increase overall in safety. They could ban small mains but not require AAD's. They could require AAD's AND ban small mains. They could let you jump without an AAD and let you jump whatever main you like. It's their DZ.

[pete683 0]

Paul,
Excellent news man!!! That takes a load off my mind. Especially since i just sold my cypress-2 last summer. Those things are always firing on me for whatever reason.
Skydive Alabama has always been my home, and favorite, DZ. Looking foward to continue pushing my limits there in the future. Thank you for all you are doing.
Pete Certain
BASE 683
Nite 116
Cave 68

[BillyVance 34]

Quote

Paul,
Excellent news man!!! That takes a load off my mind. Especially since i just sold my cypress-2 last summer. Those things are always firing on me for whatever reason.
Skydive Alabama has always been my home, and favorite, DZ. Looking foward to continue pushing my limits there in the future. Thank you for all you are doing.
Pete Certain
BASE 683
Nite 116
Cave 68

My Cypres expired last August and my rig is currently AAD-less, and will be for some time, so this works out for me. When it gets warmer, I'll be back up there from time to time.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[Cutaway68 4]

Quote

Quote

I have personally witnesses two saves that would have been fatal accidents without such device.
_________________________________________________
Were those two students or tandems that have aads mandated already? or so-called experienced jumpers?

I take the stats from the manufacturers with a grain of salt, after all, its a marketing ploy for them (and for dzs that mandate them). But I have to wonder how many of those 'saves' resulted in two-outs, maybe even injuries, because the guy dumped a little low.... And how many would the guy have opened anyways. Always got to remember just because its in 'pro' mode doesn't mean it's an experienced jumper, sometimes freefall students might use pro modes....

So if it was students and tandems, it's already mandated. Why require it of people who know what they're doing? Not to say you can't suggest it -- but why mandate it?

'If' I was made to use an aad in order to jump and it killed me, I'd be pretty pissed off.

I see where of the 18 U.S. fatalities this year, 75% were under open functioning canopies.

~ SEVENTY FIVE PERCENT! ~


I think if a DZO/USPA honestly wants to make any dropzone a safer place...statistically speaking, mandatory AOD's shouldn't be at the top of the list.

68% of statistics are made up.

Don't Pull Low... Unless You ARE!!!
The pessimist says, "It can't get any worse than this." The optimist says, "Sure, it can."
Be fun, have safe.

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

68% of statistics are made up.

Do you have source?

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Nutz 0]

It is on the Hooters wet nap pack. Oh, did you want him to tell you that?

"Don't! Get! Eliminated!"

[Airman1270 0]

Quote

>Yet there is a growing element in the sport that gets its panties in a wad
>over people who don't jump often, use older gear, and/or don't use an
>AAD. These people seem to enjoy imposing their personal preferences on
>the rest of us.

It's not growing. It's massive and has been here for a long time. Those same people are the ones who want you to take a skydiving course before you start skydiving, who want you to use a reserve, who want you to give them enough time on exit, who don't want you to do bigways until you're ready, who want you to follow a consistent pattern, who don't want you to swoop downwind, who don't want you to do demos until you have the right experience and training etc etc. In other words, the assholes who have been there since the beginning of skydiving trying to make the sport a safer one (and more often than not succeeding.)

>Unless, of course, they ban those real small fast mains. What is the
>point of requiring an AAD (based on concern for their customers' "safety")
>yet allowing their customers to jump tiny little parachutes that must be
>flown JUST RIGHT in order to avoid serious injury or death?

It's an increase overall in safety. They could ban small mains but not require AAD's. They could require AAD's AND ban small mains. They could let you jump without an AAD and let you jump whatever main you like. It's their DZ.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Bill, you seem to be replying to someone else. Nobody has suggested that we do away with formal training for beginners, reserve parachutes, or anything else you mentioned. My point is that this element to which I referred has been imposing a series of ridiculous "guidelines" regarding currency, gear, etc. that goes way beyond basic common sense. This has driven up the cost of skydiving while doing nothing to make it safer.

I've been doing this for almost 30 years. It is perfectly safe to use older gear, jump without an AAD, and/or only make a few jumps once in a while. As long as one operates within his experience & comfort zone there is nothing wrong with this.

Experienced jumpers do not forget basic survival skills simply because they take a few months off. Nobody is saying it's okay for the guy returning after a long layoff to get on a 20-way or do a demo, but there's nothing wrong with him doing a small-way, nor is there anything wrong with him using an older rig (assuming he's already familiar with it.)

This mind-set of hyper-regulation is killing the sport.
It is one thing to require a FJC for beginners. It is quite another to require formal retraining for an experienced jumper returning after taking several months off, or refusing to service a rig for a customer because it is beyond "X" years old.

I can't remember the last time I made 20 jumps in a year. Last year I only made seven. After doing mostly hop & pops for a couple of years I went last on a 5-way and flew like a pro. My accuracy skills are not quite as good as Hayhursts or Stearns', but I can just about nail a target every time, even after taking six months off. Yet according to the people to which I was referring, I should not be allowed on a DZ unless I pay for formal retraining and buy an AAD. This is stupid.

That being said, I'm having a problem with this new definition of "freedom" as the right of a DZO to impose stupid restrictions on its customers. We're not arguing about their "right" to require AAD's, we're arguing about the need for such a rule in the first place. In extreme curcumstances AAD's can save lives as well as kill people. Let the customer decide, and stop creating an atmosphere where newcomers are taught to be afraid to jump without one.

Cheers,
Jon

[billvon 2,384]

>My point is that this element to which I referred has been imposing
>a series of ridiculous "guidelines" regarding currency, gear, etc. that goes
>way beyond basic common sense.

And I am saying that to a jumper that started in 1960, a rule about traffic patterns goes way beyond basic common sense. "I've been jumping for 50 years! You think I can't avoid a few canopies? Fucking nanny state."

>It is perfectly safe to use older gear, jump without an AAD, and/or
>only make a few jumps once in a while.

It absolutely is not. Anyone of any age with any gear who thinks jumping is "perfectly safe" is deluded. AAD's can decrease, but not eliminate, those risks.

>It is quite another to require formal retraining for an experienced
>jumper returning after taking several months off

That's one of those lessons that was written in blood. Currency is critical in this sport.

>This mind-set of hyper-regulation is killing the sport.

As the sport continues to grow, that's not a supportable statement.

>In extreme curcumstances AAD's can save lives as well as kill people.

Agreed.

>Let the customer decide . . .

The guy who takes the risks with his business and his home gets to decide who can risk what at his DZ. You can then decide whether you want to jump there or not.

[skypuppy 1]

>This mind-set of hyper-regulation is killing the sport.

As the sport continues to grow, that's not a supportable statement.
______________________________________________

Everything I'm told leads me to believe the sport is NOT growing. Certainly cspa membership is down from past decades....
_______________________________________________

>It is perfectly safe to use older gear, jump without an AAD, and/or
>only make a few jumps once in a while.

It absolutely is not. Anyone of any age with any gear who thinks jumping is "perfectly safe" is deluded.
_______________________________________________

We're not talking about perfect in a vacuum here. It is certainly safe enough that a 'lot' of people don't have a problem with doing it.... If you want 'perfectly safe' than you should be staying home....

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[Airman1270 0]

_______________________________________________

>It is perfectly safe to use older gear, jump without an AAD, and/or
>only make a few jumps once in a while.

It absolutely is not. Anyone of any age with any gear who thinks jumping is "perfectly safe" is deluded.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

All right, all right... "Safety" is relative. What I meant was that jumping sporadically with older gear and/or no AAD is no more dangerous than jumping frequently using the best gear available. Sigh.

Cheers,
Jon

[Airman1270 0]

>It is quite another to require formal retraining for an experienced
>jumper returning after taking several months off

That's one of those lessons that was written in blood. Currency is critical in this sport.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

No. This myth is bullshit. I've been jumping this way for longer than many people here have been in the sport and I speak with some authority on the subject.

As long as the returning jumper keeps the workload simple it's no big deal. Stay away from the 40-way, use a more conservative canopy, avoid high winds, and you'll be fine. Anyone can do it.

How many of the people who insist on these stupid rules have themselves gone months at a time between jumps? I may be mistaken, but it seems that most of these people are folks who practically live at the DZ every weekend. They can't remember the last time they went a month without jumping, Their comfort zone includes a level of hyper-currency that is only shared by others who spend as much time at the DZ as they do. This they define as the "norm," which they then attempt to impose on everyone else.

I've read many incident reports in which these people screwed up big time. But I can't remember any such reports involving low-time and/or sporadic jumpers in which some other serious factor (ambitious plans, "downsizing," etc.) was not THE main cause of the accident.

Cheers,
Jon

[Airman1270 0]

>In extreme curcumstances AAD's can save lives as well as kill people.

Agreed.

>Let the customer decide . . .

The guy who takes the risks with his business and his home gets to decide who can risk what at his DZ. You can then decide whether you want to jump there or not.

[airtwardo 6]

While I understand and agree with much of what you are saying...there IS the mental aspect to the sport that does get rusty with time away.

Had a buddy that was off for six months, wanted to come out and do a simple 3way. I encouraged him to do a solo first to get the cobbs blown off...he didn't see the need until we sat and talked for a bit.

When as a 'refresher' I started asking him some EP's, things like two-outs...all I got was crickets.

Yes, one can easily fall stable and open a big canopy after a lay-off, but certainly they aren't as sharp as they might need to be in 'all' aspects of the sport that they might use even doing a simple solo.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[billvon 2,384]

>What I meant was that jumping sporadically with older gear and/or no
>AAD is no more dangerous than jumping frequently using the best gear
>available. Sigh.

That's just not true. We've seen a great many instances where jumping with a functioning AAD or RSL or Skyhook could have saved someone's life. We've also seen incidents where lack of currency was almost certainly a factor.

Skydiving's not one of those things where if you just show up you'll be fine. You need to save your own life on every single jump. You have to have the training and experience needed to jump safely - and that doesn't stay with you if you don't jump regularly. You need gear that will operate correctly and land you safely. A 1980-circa Swift with a Pursuit main, round unmodified reserve, ROL deployment system and no AAD/RSL is absolutely less safe than a modern rig with an AAD, RSL and appropriately sized canopies.

Now, is it safe _enough_? That's up to you. But combine an uncurrent jumper, older gear with poor pin protection, lack of backups in the form of AAD, RSL, audible altimeter etc and your odds of an incident go way up.

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

On a personal level, accept any opportunity to serve on a jury, rather than try to get out of it. If it becomes obvious that the plaintiff is attempting to blame the "big corporation" for actions beyond its control, vote to acquit. (Example: If the heating/air serviceman rapes the housewife, HE is responsible, not the company for whom he works. If the pizza guy runs a red light & hits someone, HE is responsible, not the company...)

I greatly respect the thoughtfulness of your posts on skydiving issues. But with all due respect, let me lend some perspective to what you propose:

The only way what you propose could happen is if the prospective juror, during the screening process, lies to the court when asked whether he has any pre-conceived biases that could affect his decision, or if he does, whether he could faithfully set those biases aside and follow only the evidence and the judge's instructions. Although one might say that happens all the time, you're advocating someone who is about to be sworn-in as a temporary member of the judiciary (i.e., juror) to deliberately deceive the court and violate that oath. In my opinion, whenever a juror does that he is engaging in a form of official corruption.

By way of example (only - not to get into a political issue): I generally oppose the death penalty. I've long since decided that if ever I'm called-upon as a juror (or a judge, if I ever become one) to impose a death penalty, I will disqualify myself rather than participating in a capital case. I once was on a panel of prospective jurors for a capital murder case. During the questioning session, the first thing they did was "death qualify" the panel: they weeded out everybody who raised their hand to say they were opposed to the death penalty. I could have kept my hand down, and tried to get on the jury so that I could use my vote to block a death penalty. But I didn't - I raised my hand, and I was out. That's the way it should be done.

[Scrumpot 1]

Quote

If the pizza guy runs a red light & hits someone, HE is responsible, not the company...

Until you hear (or subsequently learn) that it is the pizza company's policy to not pay the delivery driver, if the pizza is even 30-seconds beyond (x UNREASONABLE) imposed time from door-to-door constraint. ...Then, maybe even further on top of that - dock/charge the already less-than-minimum wage (i.e. on the verge of abject poverty) driver for that "late" pizza too! -

Or, that fast-food restaurant's coffee was made ON PURPOSE/by DELIBERATE POLICY so far well OUTSIDE OF EVEN REMOTELY REASONABLE (consumable) temperature ranges (levels even up to 5x beyond just "scalding" ) that it would immediately (instantaneously) strip subcutaneous layers of flesh TO THE BONE upon contact!

Just sayin' (adding)...

coitus non circum - Moab Stone