Accelerated Free Fall

[NZNik 0]

Hi guys.

Not one month ago I got to experience the most amazing thing I've ever done in my life. My first jump. This happened in Wanaka, New Zealand.

I've done and seen some great stuff in my short time, but probably the only thing that comes close to that skydive is a long steep hard powder run on a snowboard.

I'm sure you can all remember your first jump - the apprehension before hand, the smell of the burning Jet A1, the butterflies, the hyperventilation seconds before jumping out and then the rush before hitting terminal velocity - just awesome.

The main reason I signed up today was to ask a couple of questions. I've decided to to my AFF and take Sky diving up as a sport/hobby or whatever you want to call it. The problem is, i'm torn between the awesomeness of it, and the terrifying thoughts of "What if it all goes wrong?"

I'm mainly thinking chute failure, as most newbies probably do - but all jokes aside, how real are the risks? I'm really packing myself about things like chute failure or other conditions out of my control. How often does this stuff actually happen?

I understand all this fear mainly comes down to not understanding, lack of knowledge etc. So if you don't mind guys, could you offer me some honest advice so I can put my mind at ease?

Nik.

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

Here is a beginning for you from the perspective of the USPA:

http://www.uspa.org/AboutSkydiving/SkydivingSafety/tabid/526/Default.aspx

Oddly enough, failure to get a working canopy overhead before impact is NOT the leading cause of skydiving deaths in the US currently. Flying a perfectly good canopy into either the earth or another canopy is the leading cause of skydiving deaths in the US this year.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[NZNik 0]

Wow that's quite incredible, thanks for the info Glideangle.

It seems though within the industry, everyone knows someone who has lost someone, or who has lost someone themselves. I noticed in the Blue Skies sub forum, without upsetting anyone, there have been a few loved ones lost. Without upsetting anyone or asking questions, are they not all sky diving related.

I guess i'm paranoid, or have a ridiculously over-the-top self preservation mechanism... Perhaps some therapy could cure it :D

[Icon134 0]

Your fear is by no means irrational... Todays modern equipment is very reliable and generally works as expected/planned. (I have almost 1000 jumps since my last and so far only cutaway was on jump 38... my wife has almost 800 jumps and only has one cutaway...)

However if it was fullproof then there would be no reason to have a secondary parachute available as a backup. Whereas we do carry one... just in case the first one doesn't open properly or something else goes amiss.

Having said that most of the injurys or death today occur under good canopys and involve pilot error...

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[Muffie 0]

Nik,
I'm newer to the sport - did my first tandem last November and then did AFF this fall. At this point I have 28 jumps and can say that doing your own jumps is a hell of a lot more fun than a tandem.

Having said that - if you read through these forums you will soon see that most people who are at it any length of time know someone who is hurt seriously or killed and that if you don't know a person killed chances are you'll know someone who did know them. (And Blue Skies isn't just skydiving fatalities - it's people who were close to the sport or in the sport who have passed away, some from skydiving, some from other things). For example, you're in NZ and on the South Island - chances are everyone you jumped with knew someone on that Fox Glacier crash earlier this year.

Since doing my AFF and a handful of jumps I've been reading the incidents forum. It's an eye opener about what can and has gone wrong, but if you really have skydiving in your blood I would advise against doing that now. Go, do your AFF, get some jumps under your belt and then freak yourself out after you have some real world experience of a solo jump. If you focus too much on what can go wrong before you learn how things work I think you may end up doing yourself a disservice. Your instructors will drill you on what you need to know for those first few jumps, including handling malfunctions and off landings, etc.

Welcome!
Muffie

[MarkM 0]

Most skydiving incidents are very much in your control.

Realistically, the chance of dying in skydiving is pretty low. That chance goes up very quickly though if you get complacent, which is why it's always important to keep a safe mindset.

That said, injuries are pretty high in the sport. They're typically fairly minor, sprains and simple breaks, but it's not at all uncommon for people to get injuries that require multiple days in the hospital and surgery of some sort.

[jim_32766 0]

Nik, one of the metrics I looked at prior to getting started was how many people have achieved thousands of skydives and many hours of accumulated freefall. Serious injuries and fatalities, if they occurred too frequently, would limit those high numbers. This is an extreme sport and you can get hurt. You have to always remember that. You can also manage risk and avoid becoming complacent so that you avoid the pitfalls and become one of those high number people. Let us know how your AFF proceeds and how your view of the sport develops.

The meaning of life . . . is to make life have meaning.

[Ron 7]

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It seems though within the industry, everyone knows someone who has lost someone, or who has lost someone themselves.

You will notice three things is you get into the sport and stay in the sport.

1. You will meet a ton of people.

2. It is really a small sport, USPA says ~34,000 members, but the active jumpers are fewer.

3. Everyone knows, or claims to know, someone who died. I say "claims to know" since some people like to jump on any bandwagon they can find. I once had a guy start to tell me a story of a guy going in "that he watched".... Only to remind him that *I* told him that story and he was trying to tell *me* what *I* saw, and the incident happened before he was even jumping.

But even if you remove the posers, this is such a small community that you will meet tons of people and on some level "know" them... You may not have ever talked to them off of a DZ, but you did know them.

Add in the internet, and you will hear of any accident in a few hours... And have details that used to take years to filter around.

So say I bounce.... Several people that have only ever read my postings will claim to have "known" me... In some ways they really do, but in others they only know my postings.

And skydiving is not safe.... no matter what anyone tells you. The risk can be controlled to what most people consider and acceptable level and they may call it "safe". But you are jumping from a plane in flight and the you and your gear must perform or you will die.

To me and many others, the risk is worth the reward.

Look at the fatality rate. Lets say that we average 22.4 fatalities a year (USPA).

And taking into account the membership during those years - it is about 30k.

Then one out of every ~1330 USPA members die each year. But remember that not all of those 30k members are actively jumping AND many students do a few jumps and NEVER join the USPA. Personally I WAG estimate it at about 1/1000 jumpers will die.

But that does not take into account the number of jumps made, OR the reason for the fatality.

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or have a ridiculously over-the-top self preservation mechanism...

In this sport, that is a good thing to have.

You can take some solace in the fact that most accidents are due to user error. Being conservative in your progression, conservative in gear selection, and conservative in deciding what type of jumps to do can greatly increase your chances of not getting hurt.

But only you can decide if the risk is worth it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[thrillstalker 0]

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Hi guys.

Not one month ago I got to experience the most amazing thing I've ever done in my life. My first jump. This happened in Wanaka, New Zealand.

I've done and seen some great stuff in my short time, but probably the only thing that comes close to that skydive is a long steep hard powder run on a snowboard.

I'm sure you can all remember your first jump - the apprehension before hand, the smell of the burning Jet A1, the butterflies, the hyperventilation seconds before jumping out and then the rush before hitting terminal velocity - just awesome.

The main reason I signed up today was to ask a couple of questions. I've decided to to my AFF and take Sky diving up as a sport/hobby or whatever you want to call it. The problem is, i'm torn between the awesomeness of it, and the terrifying thoughts of "What if it all goes wrong?"

I'm mainly thinking chute failure, as most newbies probably do - but all jokes aside, how real are the risks? I'm really packing myself about things like chute failure or other conditions out of my control. How often does this stuff actually happen?

I understand all this fear mainly comes down to not understanding, lack of knowledge etc. So if you don't mind guys, could you offer me some honest advice so I can put my mind at ease?

Nik.

if you think you might want to get into skydiving, do aff. if you dont like it or your nerves get you, all you gotta do is not jump again.

"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."

[NZNik 0]

Wow, thanks guys. I didn't expect the level of advice I have received, I really appreciate it.

At this stage, I plan only to do AFF and become a regular jumper. I have no real intention of BASE, Wingsuit or other forms of jumping that isn't vanilla Sky Diving. Not that it doesn't interest me, Wing suits sound like a bloody great idea - but i'm not going to jump to gun.

I guess like a few of you have said, I can take comfort in knowing that a lot of accidents happen due to human error, or pushing the boundaries or other rather controllable factors.

If anyone has any more advice/soothing statistics to provide, please do :D As pathetic as it sounds, it feels like a big step and I guess arming myself with knowledge dissipates the fear to a certain extent.

Thanks again.

[NZNik 0]

Also, could you look at it this way? :

I've personally lost mates to car crashes or other accidents, and most of you probably have too. The likelyhood of being killed in a car crash, or knowing someone who has is probably significantly higher than skydiving. I think it's just our perception, and the fact we're so used to driving that we assume it's safer.

Could you use this theory as a comparison? The frequency of deaths with skydiving VS deaths with driving, on a percentage/per capita basis (Obviously there are FAR more drivers in the world than sky divers)

[JohnMitchell 14]

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I've personally lost mates to car crashes or other accidents, and most of you probably have too. The likelyhood of being killed in a car crash, or knowing someone who has is probably significantly higher than skydiving.

Might as well burst your bubble. Skydiving is a lot more dangerous than driving. More jumpers die jumping than driving. Of course, it could be that we're really, really good drivers.

[Scrumpot 1]

The problem with using the driving analogy / comparison is total net exposure time to the element.

So many MORE people regularly and routinely drive (or even just ride in cars), and your total life net time exposure to it is so much more / longer that there really is no DIRECT correlation / comparison.

In comparison, even if you are a regular/routine skydiver, your RELATIVE net exposure time to the element is so much LESS - that if you do an accurate "comparison" (correlation between the 2 activities) - and accurately correlate the active participant(s) #'s, then skydiving - using that comparison/correlation is clearly MUCH MORE DANGEROUS, period.

As John says - Sorry to burst your bubble on that one, mate.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[Andy9o8 0]

Everyone is correct that pilot error kills far more modern skydivers than mere equipment failure.

Having said that, here's (yet) another way to illustrate the fallacy of your comparision to driving:

On any, and every, parachute jump, no matter how conservative the jump may be in every respect, every jumper, even the most experienced and skilled, exits the plane knowing that he might, just might, be dead within the next 30 to 90 seconds for no other reason than if his equipment catastrophically fails.

When you get that feeling each and every time you pull out of your driveway to go to the corner store, then you can compare skydiving to driving. But until that's the case, don't compare skydiving to anything else. It's virtually unique to itself, and that's really the only way it can properly be judged.

It's all about risk mitigation and management. There are many thousands of very normal (ha!) people of all walks of life and ages who make many thousands of skydives each year - who very much want, and expect, to grow old. If the risk of skydiving could not be reasonably mitigated and managed, far, far fewer of us would be doing it.

[Ron 7]

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I've personally lost mates to car crashes or other accidents, and most of you probably have too. The likelyhood of being killed in a car crash, or knowing someone who has is probably significantly higher than skydiving.

Sorry, that is wrong. Skydiving is more dangerous than driving.

You may have known more people to die while driving.... but I bet you know more people who drive. And I bet they drive more than your jumping friends jump.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Bertt 0]

Skydiving is, indeed, more dangerous than driving. But if you look at a subset of drivers - say, 16 and 17 year olds who have only had a driving license a short time, their risk is comparable to skydiving. It amazes me how many parents will say, "Not as long as you live under my roof" to a kid who wants to skydive (or scuba dive, or whatever), but will loan the car to a 16 year old who's going to a party at night.
Back to the point; you have a lot of control over the risk in skydiving. Your choice of equipment and the way you approach the activity can considerably increase or decrease your risk, compared to the overall population of skydivers.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[Ron 7]

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But if you look at a subset of drivers - say, 16 and 17 year olds who have only had a driving license a short time, their risk is comparable to skydiving.

Can you provide the data to back that claim?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,380]

>The likelyhood of being killed in a car crash, or knowing someone who
>has is probably significantly higher than skydiving.

I've known 2 or 3 killed in car crashes over the years. I've known 20 people or so over the years who have been killed in skydiving. A partial list:

Harry
Taz
Shannon
John
Diego
Mariann
Jan
Jan
Michele
Brooke

[virgin-burner 1]

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"What if it all goes wrong?"

then it's game over. you're dead. but that's pretty much with everything you can do, if you do leave the house occasionally.

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[popsjumper 2]

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I guess like a few of you have said, I can take comfort in knowing that a lot of accidents happen due to human error, or pushing the boundaries or other rather controllable factors.

I'd venture "most" rather than "a lot". You CAN minimize those errors....

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If anyone has any more advice/soothing statistics to provide, please do :D As pathetic as it sounds, it feels like a big step and I guess arming myself with knowledge dissipates the fear to a certain extent.

...and there's how.

Knowledge is power. Knowledge will give you the means to dissipate that fear.

Your training is all about giving you that basic knowledge and you'll continue your education throughout your entire skydiving career...all going towards making your skydiving risk more easily managed and therefore safer.

Have fun during your training.
If you ain't smilin', you ain't doin' it right.


One word, though.
You've expressed some focus on fear here. During your training process, focus on what you are supposed to be doing rather than what "might happen". You will be trained on how to handle those "might happen" situations. Focus on what needs to be done at each point in time, not what "might happen".

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[DaVincisEnvy 0]

While skydiving is indeed more dangerous than driving, the comparison of fatality risk while jumping to that of riding a motorcycle is fairly valid, at least in the US. According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's (NHTSA) 2006 report entitled "Recent Trends in Fatal Motorcycle Crashes:An Update" (http://hawaii.gov/dot/highways/hwy-v/Recent%20Trends%20in%20Fatal%20Motorcycle%20Crashes%20Update.pdf), the rate of motorcycle fatalities for 2004 was 4E-7 fatalities per vehicle mile driven. Taking the USPA's fatality data for 2000-2009 of 25.8 fatalities for ~3 million jumps = 8.6E-6 fatalities per jump.

So, the risk of fatality while making one skydive is ~21.5x higher than riding on a motorcycle for one mile. Or, put differently, if you commute to work more than 22 miles each way, you'd be safer skydiving into work than riding your bike (okay, just joking... sort of).