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rhys

The number of jumps required for jumping a camera in different countries

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Rhys i can see the angle you are coming from with regards to people putting a number required to do a task than judgement on ability alone, BPA rules 200 jumps before a camera can be jumped, but you also require CCI permision along with adhering to Local DZ rules e.g having a cut away or not!

I had a major problem with people restricting my progression when i came to down sizing onto smaller canopys, (They where having my best intrest at heart) there are no rules set in stone on down sizing within the BPA rules that i could find apart from recomdation not not regarding a percentatage reduction but this is only advisory and doesnt say how many jumps you should do before changing again. Anyway what im trying to get at is people once they see someone get hurt they want to wrap people in cotten to insure no one gets hurt, which i can uderstand as there is nothing worse watching some die infront of you, Plus i think the second thing that numbers are put onto things like this is todo with insurance and liabilty, To protect DZO & CCI. Especially the blame game that is currently part of our culture i hate to say,
If it was my way there would not be a jump number limit it would be based on ability and enforming the jumper if you get this wrong your dead. But these isnt going to happen.
I could suggest such ways around issue's, but if people want it enough be it jumping camera or wingsuiting etc they will find ways around it. Cough, go to a different DZ or do some BASE!

Just in Rhy's deffence i belive this should have been placed in the photography section, and belive that some of the MOD's should maybe take a back seat in some areas, as it looks like you have isolated him out. I have had the pleasure of competing with rhys last year in Dubai 2010 meet. An is very warming and apporachable chap.

Blue skys dez
Do what every arsehole who knows everything about canopy flight does this time of year , pull those toggles like the church bells and and closer to the floor the better the thrill!

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Just in Rhy's deffence i belive this should have been placed in the photography section



The topic of whether someone should be putting a camera on their head at 50, 100, or 200 jumps isn't a "photo" topic as much as it is a general or safety conversation. The majority that want to put a camera on their head at 50 jumps are shooting video "of their jump." "Not gonna think about it being here" "just shooting my mates."

That particular subject inspires little intelligent new conversation but rather volumnous amounts of noise, and has done since the days of alt.rec.skydiving. So much so that the valuable information on the topic has been lost,

This being said (just as in the past) the offer is out for anyone to PM with rules, regulations, recommendations for their country and camera flying. The info will be compiled into a single resource for everyone to access. Shouting about being superior for having started early, talk of how the USPA, older/experienced jumpers are deliberately hindering the progress of new jumpers, why the tandem manufacturers have it all wrong, why everyone else is wrong...there are currently 4 active threads amongst the other 10k posts in which the OP can continue to increase the volume.
The Photo forum, like other specific forums is a resource, not a soapbox.

Your comment about certain aspects of flying to be based on skill and not numbers is a good one to discuss.

As a *community* how do we trust that those passing on their blessing to newer jumpers, actually have *our* interests at heart? We trust Examiners to certify the safety of someone else for the benefit of _us_ and our membership organizations. If someone feels a guy with 10 jumps is camera-ready, what happens when he goes to another DZ and causes an incident?
It's easy to give permissions and blessings away when there is no responsibility attached to it.
Therefore, applying jump numbers based on the collective opinions of hundreds of thousands of jumps is a good means of creating a recommendation. The "incident" list in the Photo forum is another indicator of a good starting point.

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The topic of whether someone should be putting a camera on their head at 50, 100, or 200 jumps isn't a "photo" topic as much as it is a general or safety conversation. The majority that want to put a camera on their head at 50 jumps are shooting video "of their jump." "Not gonna think about it being here" "just shooting my mates."

That particular subject inspires little intelligent new conversation but rather volumnous amounts of noise, and has done since the days of alt.rec.skydiving. So much so that the valuable information on the topic has been lost,




Bollocks.

You are an expert in the high tech aspect of photography, almost so much that it seems you are out of touch with the avererage joe.

While some will need the information on the high tech aspect, some are just wanting to share images and tips and sometimes they even want to know what the differetnt rules in different countries are.

The rules will affect those with the 100-300 jumps range which I can imagine is a majority of the 'active' skydiving community.

Only a handful of skydivers mostly 'trustafarians', the semi wealthy and commercial skydivers usually get to numbers beyond 1000 jumps in a handful of years most may linger around 150 jumps for some time indeed.

These small format camers have only really come into fruition and these wuill increasingly be a part of our skydiving lives.

These forums are for everybody, not just a select few.

What is useless to you (some people) may be interesting information to others.

There is always a search function to retrieve any information here, that is unless that information has been removed.

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This being said (just as in the past) the offer is out for anyone to PM with rules, regulations, recommendations for their country and camera flying. The info will be compiled into a single resource for everyone to access. Shouting about being superior for having started early, talk of how the USPA, older/experienced jumpers are deliberately hindering the progress of new jumpers, why the tandem manufacturers have it all wrong, why everyone else is wrong...there are currently 4 active threads amongst the other 10k posts in which the OP can continue to increase the volume.
The Photo forum, like other specific forums is a resource, not a soapbox



Serriously Douglas. You are shifting your opinion slowly to make yourself look better and skewing the history here.

The inabilty from the USPA advocates to understand the differences in regulation or recommendations in different countries is the problem with this conversation.

This thread started as the very information base you say you will complile, if anybody other than myself brings it forward in a P/M rather than a post.

That comes accross as an assumption that only you have the authority to compile such a database of information.

Do we need permission to start a thread on a subject?

Show me another thread that addresses this information specifically?

What is wrong with this thread that you need to make (yet another) one yourself?

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As a *community* how do we trust that those passing on their blessing to newer jumpers, actually have *our* interests at heart? We trust Examiners to certify the safety of someone else for the benefit of _us_ and our membership organizations. If someone feels a guy with 10 jumps is camera-ready, what happens when he goes to another DZ and causes an incident?
It's easy to give permissions and blessings away when there is no responsibility attached to it.
Therefore, applying jump numbers based on the collective opinions of hundreds of thousands of jumps is a good means of creating a recommendation. The "incident" list in the Photo forum is another indicator of a good starting point.



You seriously seem to have missed the point ( or are avoiding it), which is probably why you have drifted so far away from it.

I'll point it out to you again simply just to clarify;

There are different rules in different countries, that hypothetical guy you just spoke of with 10 jumps would likely be breaking the rules in 'every' country in the world (that has such rules).

That hypotheical and deliberately misleading situation shows clearly that you misunderstand the point of this thread, or want to skew the point.

This thread was intended for those that do not necessarily jump in the USA or will not be, if they are travelling abroad and will not be subject to USPA rules.

This position may give them the ability to jump a camera at 70 or 130 jumps due to the current rules and regulations in place in the country they may plan to jump in.

For instance it is OK to jump with a camera in Australia with DZSO approval for any jumper from any country that may have 100 jumps or more.

They may be lead astray by your information and that is why I started this thread.

Currently the information in the camera and photgraphy forum only allows for the USPA jumpers and anything lesser than the USPA rules it seems, is deemed irresponsable by meany of the posters here.

These individuals including yourself seem to be confusing the difference between people using different rules and people breaking the rules.

BIG DIFFERENCE.

After all this, it seems unlikey that many of you are willing to accept that difference as reasonable.

That is the main cause of the;

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rather volumnous amounts of noise



The information that was origonally intended has been buried among bigotry.

It is a shame these discussions end up this way.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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They may be lead astray by your information and that is why I started this thread.



I think I've made my point enough times, but here's one more. What's the risk? Is someone going to be hurt in any way by listening to the USPA recommendation (or DSE's personal recommendation)?

Don't you think American jumpers with 500 jumps should know they're only half way to qualifying for a tandem rating in NZ? Isn't that good information to have?

My recommendation of 200 jumps, which is based on what I've seen (you're not the only one entitled to an opinion), applies even in countries that allow people to jump with cameras at 50 jumps. I'd still tell them they should wait until they have at least 200. In the US I'd tell someone looking to get a coach rating with 100 jumps that they should make another 100 before goign for tha rating. Rules and recommendations don't have to match. Just because something is allowed doesn't make it a good idea.

Do you think 50 jumps is enough for a Canadian jumper that makes under 10 jumps a month? Location has nothing to do with it.

In the very special case of a "commercial skydiver" making 1000+ jumps a year in a highly controlled environment with close supervision and good mentoring, I have no problem with someone jumping a camera earlier than I'd normally recommend. On the other hand, a hot shot jumper that barely stays current but believes he has enough natural skill to jump a camera at 100 jumps, no way.

Dave

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some are just wanting to share images and tips and sometimes they even want to know what the differetnt rules in different countries are.



and

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Only a handful of skydivers mostly 'trustafarians', the semi wealthy and commercial skydivers usually get to numbers beyond 1000 jumps in a handful of years most may linger around 150 jumps for some time indeed.



Most avg, jumpers here in the states are not going to go to your country or AUS. in order to jump a camera @ a 100 jumps and very few would go just for a skydiving vaca. and those that do are mostly the "'trustafarians', the semi wealthy" you speak of.

Regardless anyone who really wants to know the info about another countries skydiving rules and can't find it here can use Google to locate the info.... wow now there's an idea!

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The inabilty from the USPA advocates to understand the differences in regulation or recommendations in different countries is the problem with this conversation.



No we understand there are other rules in other countries..... the real problem is you fail to understand in most conversations is,.... that we don't give a fuck what your rules are over there or how special you feel you are because you started with less then the rules over here... We only care about the rules HERE and how they effect us! And your continued rants on the subject in most other threads are the problem when talking about those who follow USPA rules and guidelines or other countries who also have higher requirements then your own country and advise others as to those rules.

While most USA peeps don't agree with your rules, we don't repeatedly chime into threads about your countries rules and speak ill of how stupid you are.

Your the one who is making a big big stink for a teeny tiny % of the worlds skydiving populations who will travel out of home country for only skydiving events or enjoyment and even fewer of that % are going to be sub 100 jumps jumpers seeking to avoid the camera jumping rules here.

If there is such a demand for this topic then we would see large numbers of people across the globe posting here and asking such questions, yet we don't, so it seems you got some big raging fucking hard on for DSE and continued bashing the USPA rules and acting like your some hot shit fucking skygod who has all the answers, well good for you for filling the huge void in the information on global camera skydiving rules.:S
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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Most avg, jumpers here in the states are not going to go to your country or AUS. in order to jump a camera @ a 100 jumps and very few would go just for a skydiving vaca. and those that do are mostly the "'trustafarians', the semi wealthy" you speak of.



There are thousands of jumpers that live in those other countres that may read here, this website is not for Amercia.

America is not the world. This is an international website and the information should be relevant to everyone.

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that we don't give a fuck what your rules are over there or how special you feel you are because you started with less then the rules over here... We only care about the rules HERE and how they effect us!



Exactly, and that is the problem here, pure arrogance. Try reading the title of the thread.

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While most USA peeps don't agree with your rules, we don't repeatedly chime into threads about your countries rules and speak ill of how stupid you are.



Now you are lying as well...:D:D Read you comment above and tell me how that is not chiming in with stupid irrelevant comments.


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Your the one who is making a big big stink for a teeny tiny % of the worlds skydiving populations who will travel out of home country for only skydiving events or enjoyment and even fewer of that % are going to be sub 100 jumps jumpers seeking to avoid the camera jumping rules here.



Or the thousands of jumpers in countries other than the USA. that may have other rules. You know, those ones that ownners of this website would like to see participating here and increasing the volume of jumpers and the variation seen in the forums.

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If there is such a demand for this topic then we would see large numbers of people across the globe posting here and asking such questions, yet we don't, so it seems you got some big raging fucking hard on for DSE and continued bashing the USPA rules and acting like your some hot shit fucking skygod who has all the answers, well good for you for filling the huge void in the information on global camera skydiving rules



Gee I wonder what attitude may inhibit other people from posting such questions, and asking for such answers.

Nobody ever gets ridiculed on this website, the post numbers and number of posters are growing rapidly and the website is increasingly more attractive to international advertisers because the viewpoints are so very balanced and fair on here.:S

:D

Come back down to earth man.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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I think I've made my point enough times, but here's one more. What's the risk? Is someone going to be hurt in any way by listening to the USPA recommendation (or DSE's personal recommendation)?



Unfortunately I have been instructed by DSE and Bilvon not to debate the differences between the rules pertaining to camera jumpin so I am not at liberty to answer that question. I think you should know the answer by reading here though.

What I can say, is that I have personally seen hundreds of people jump with a camera at around 100 jumps with no negative consquence.

I simply wish for the information here to be relevant to everybody. Not just the 'mericans.

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Don't you think American jumpers with 500 jumps should know they're only half way to qualifying for a tandem rating in NZ? Isn't that good information to have?



Certainly is, I think that is quite clear too now, isn't it?

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My recommendation of 200 jumps, which is based on what I've seen (you're not the only one entitled to an opinion), applies even in countries that allow people to jump with cameras at 50 jumps.



I recon you would not have the gumption to tell people in Australia or NZ that they should not be jumping cameras when they ar eallowed, they will ridicule you as I have been ridiculed here.

Put yourself on the other side of the fence and the story is completely different. I don't beleive you would have the guts to confront this situation when you were actually there, you would want to be accepted, and telling people they should not be doing things they are allowed to do would be the worst way. That is the truth.

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Unfortunately I have been instructed by DSE and Bilvon not to debate the differences between the rules pertaining to camera jumpin so I am not at liberty to answer that question. I think you should know the answer by reading here though....

...That is the truth.



A fabrication and untrue in every sense of creative interpretation.
I believe you recently used the word "delusional?"

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Unfortunately I have been instructed by DSE and Bilvon not to debate the differences between the rules pertaining to camera jumpin so I am not at liberty to answer that question. I think you should know the answer by reading here though....

...That is the truth.



A fabrication and untrue in every sense of creative interpretation.
I believe you recently used the word "delusional?"


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I warned you that there wasn't going to be debate on US rules and every one else' rules in the camera forum.



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Damn that bad DSE for first warning that debate on the merits of the NZ system vs USPA wouldn't be allowed (again) in the photo forum, and then pulling the ban hammer out when bitching about the Sticky Post is only about USPA.



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We don't need yet another thread on the subject of why one country's rules are better than another, nor why waiting til 200 jumps is a good idea. Argue about that to your heart's content in General, SC, or Bonfire.
The Ban Hammer is in effect. Take some time off, guys.



My bad, you told me not to do it in your forum so you didn't have to deal with it/accept it.

So I guess I can debate to my hearts content as it is out of your forum, where the information the thread is supposed to contain, rightfully belongs..

Thanks for clarifying.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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In the very special case of a "commercial skydiver" making 1000+ jumps a year in a highly controlled environment with close supervision and good mentoring, I have no problem with someone jumping a camera earlier than I'd normally recommend.



Why would you be OK with that? If someone makes 1000 jumps their first year, at some point they had less than 200 and you would now change your recommendations because of what they will do in the future?

As for close supervision and mentoring, you can get that if you make 100 or 1000 jumps per year. You just have to seek it.

The point you are trying to make certainly conflicts with your recommendations.

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It's one thing to throw a camera on with 100 jumps and try to get some cool video and another thing to train for one purpose with proper guidance. I still don't recommend it. But someone repeating the same jump 10 times a day with mentorship may be ready sooner than someone jumping in a less structured environment.

Currency is very important in my opinion. Someone making 100 jumps a year may not be ready for camera flying well past 200 jumps. 100 jumps within the past 12 months is the bare minimum for shooting tandem video according to UPT, regardless of jump numbers.

Not sure I've heard your opinion on the subject.

Dave

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It's one thing to throw a camera on with 100 jumps and try to get some cool video and another thing to train for one purpose with proper guidance. I still don't recommend it. But someone repeating the same jump 10 times a day with mentorship may be ready sooner than someone jumping in a less structured environment.

Currency is very important in my opinion. Someone making 100 jumps a year may not be ready for camera flying well past 200 jumps. 100 jumps within the past 12 months is the bare minimum for shooting tandem video according to UPT, regardless of jump numbers.

Not sure I've heard your opinion on the subject.

Dave



My opinion is irrelevant to the facts.

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It's one thing to throw a camera on with 100 jumps and try to get some cool video and another thing to train for one purpose with proper guidance. I still don't recommend it. But someone repeating the same jump 10 times a day with mentorship may be ready sooner than someone jumping in a less structured environment.

Currency is very important in my opinion. Someone making 100 jumps a year may not be ready for camera flying well past 200 jumps. 100 jumps within the past 12 months is the bare minimum for shooting tandem video according to UPT, regardless of jump numbers.



There we go, we can agree on something.
B|

With different context is always possible to find common ground.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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My opinion is irrelevant to the facts.



Well, I'm interested in your opinion if you're willing to state it.



Sure, why not. In my opinion someone should be able to jump with a camera before 200 jumps if they are properly trained. It depends on the individual.

I started jumping a camera when I had just over 100 jumps. Most of my videos were not that great in the beginning because I was focused on the jump and NOT getting distracted by the camera.

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Depends on who you ask since most of the group I started with started jumping cameras around 200 to 250 jumps. Then again out of the 10 to 15 people that all had that level of experience when I was starting camera flying I am the only one still jumping. I know of one person that started jumping camera at 10 jumps but he no longer jumps and quit before 200 jumps and had so many close calls that we all figured he would die but instead his brother did. I hung my camera's up after 100 or so camera jumps and cleaned up my flying a lot and put them back on after 600 jumps.

It's funny how the more experienced jumpers usually recommend higher experience but the newer jumpers usually will not heed the recommendations since they need to learn the lessons fo themselves.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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I know of one person that started jumping camera at 10 jumps but he no longer jumps and quit before 200 jumps and had so many close calls that we all figured he would die but instead his brother did. I hung my camera's up after 100 or so camera jumps and cleaned up my flying a lot and put them back on after 600 jumps.

It's funny how the more experienced jumpers usually recommend higher experience but the newer jumpers usually will not heed the recommendations since they need to learn the lessons fo themselves.



It is also funny (peculiar) how an exteme example of breaking the rules can be continulally used to promote the standpoint that tries to render the rules of a similar yet different licensing body in another country, simply becuase they are different and more relaxed than their own.

This show either the unwilloingness or inability to recognise that there is different rules and different results in different places.

It is also peculiar how those that are exposed to a lower level of skill ( a higher raitio of inexperienced jumpers) will likely have a slower progression and learning curve to those that are exposed to a higher level of skill (less experienced and much more experienced jumpers).

If you hung out in a place that allowed jumpers with 10 jumps to use a camera, and give up before 200 jumps because of too many close calls.

There is something very dodgy about the place that you jumped, the camers have nothing to do with it...

Nice story though.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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I am relaying direct experience and you dismiss it. Lots of scary stories never make it online. I've seen a few around multiple DZs that are never talked about on here.

Some countries might have lower experience recommendarios but I think part of it is due to number of jumpers. For the whole of NZ you will graduate a small fraction of the students that 1 or 2 DZs in the States will graduate. When a single dz in the us graduates 40 to 50 jumpers that are not enrolled in some sort of "work" program and there are dozens of similar DZs here the sheer volume needs to account for different recommendations. With 2000 to 3500 new A license holders each year starting here compared to at most a few hundred graduates there in the same time. With NZ having a dieing sport jumper industry and most people there involved in the commercial operations it makes sense that the programs are designed to be able to get people making money as soon as possible. If jumpers there had to wait until 200 jumps to jump with cameras and until 500 jumps to film tandems most of the diploma programs would dry up and fewer people would be starting into skydiving try to make money on it. Since the major diploma programs operators have major influence with the governing bodies you are seeing some of their influence and creation of recommendations and rules that benefit them and put commercial priorities into the rules.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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I am relaying direct experience and you dismiss it. Lots of scary stories never make it online. I've seen a few around multiple DZs that are never talked about on here.



I have seen some dipshits doing some stupid things too, but I prefer those dipshits did not effect my ability to do any such activity.

Something called freedom.

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Some countries might have lower experience recommendarios but I think part of it is due to number of jumpers. For the whole of NZ you will graduate a small fraction of the students that 1 or 2 DZs in the States will graduate.



Those NZ students for the most part go on to do 170 jumps in their first 5 months, with coaching, seminars, assignments and tests this is also a factor to consider.

I would bet a very small proportion of the students in the USA would have this type of progression as it takes almost full time commitment to do so.

The rules should accomodate everybody, not the lowest common denominator.

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When a single dz in the us graduates 40 to 50 jumpers that are not enrolled in some sort of "work" program and there are dozens of similar DZs here the sheer volume needs to account for different recommendations.



Yes some will perform over 100 jumps in the following months and some will perform a dozen jumps in the following decade.

The slow people should not hinder those with aptitude and enthusiasm. Inversly the slower people should not necessarily have the same access to the progression as those with more aptitude and enthusiasm.

This is a simple thing called supervision.

Once again the rules should be made to accomodate everybody, not the lowest common denominator.

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With 2000 to 3500 new A license holders each year starting here compared to at most a few hundred graduates there in the same time. With NZ having a dieing sport jumper industry and most people there involved in the commercial operations it makes sense that the programs are designed to be able to get people making money as soon as possible.



You will find that sport skydiving is actually increasing in NZ due to the diploma courses, the decline reached its 'bilge' a few years ago, now we have as many new jumpers training each year as there were jumpers in total only a few years ago.

I will staff my DZ entirely with New Zealanders in the future, this was not possible only a handful of years ago.

Commercial skydivers also create sport skydivers, I signed up for the diploma for a career, but inadvertantly fell in love with the sport and have represented my country in international competitions 4 times since, I am not the only one.

We don't have the population you have, but relatively speaking our insustry and sport would be similar or even bigger than your countries, our 4 million population compared to your 250million+?

It is all relative.

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If jumpers there had to wait until 200 jumps to jump with cameras and until 500 jumps to film tandems most of the diploma programs would dry up and fewer people would be starting into skydiving try to make money on it.



More correctly, if this progression was not possible, it would not be possible to offer the diploma course at all, as such tertiary institutions (in NZ) must be able to train a student to an employable status in order to attain accreditation and funding.

If this diploma was not created, the New Zealand government and therefore the New Zealand people will lose out considerably as the foreign instructors would be hired to process the 400 million dolloars or so per year the tandem skydoving industry creates in NZ and would not have to pay the same tax as the New Zelanders have to pay. As they will not spend 6 months or more in the country per year, foreigners pay very minimal tax.

In the long run the country loses without the diploma and the initial subsidy of $7500 is made up later in one financial year in tax payments.

I applaude the founders of the diploma course as much as I disagree with some of their conduct, they are filling a void that needs filling, and gave me the opportunity to become what I have.

The rules were in place well before the diploma course was created, the rules were not manipulated to accomodate the diploma course, the diploma course would have been manipulated to accomodate the regulation that was already in place.

We are fortunate that skydiving is a bonafide career here, the attitude towards that in America is quite different due to the difference in experiences there, hence this conversation

Remember, each place is different, each country has different rules for different reasons and no one country is the same 'or' absolutely correct.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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Remember, each place is different, each country has different rules for different reasons and no one country is absolutely correct.



And yet again you seem to fail to understand this very point! And you go on to bash Phree and discount his personal exp here in OUR country when speaking about what works HERE IN OUR country and what he has personally seen, we don't agree with YOUR countries rules in regards to camera flying and we tend to feel our rules are quite good as minimum standard and many young jumpers need more education on the subject.

Of course I'm sure you'll reply with yet again another rant all about how no one seem to understand how there different rules in different places, yada yada, yada, yada..... You sound like a broken record, everyone has gets your fucking ranting point in not only this thread but the other ones too, give it a rest already, your clearly very closed minded and have not only a hard on for DSE but any American rules, if you don't like so much stay the fuck out of this country and don't come back for anymore ratings, work,comps or visits for that matter!
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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And you go on to bash Phree and discount his personal exp here in OUR country when speaking about what works HERE IN OUR country and what he has personally seen, we don't agree with YOUR countries rules in regards to camera flying and we tend to feel our rules are quite good as minimum standard and many young jumpers need more education on the subject.



Again, you talk shit.

He was talking about the difference between our countries and I was explaing the resoning that he was likey unaware of, it is called discussion.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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You sound like a broken record, everyone has gets your fucking ranting point in not only this thread but the other ones too, give it a rest already



This very comment is an example of how badly you DON'T GET IT.

:D

Understanding and accepting are quite different.

You are more focused on not being wrong than you are on seeking the balance.

I have not said rules in your country are dangerous, but there are plenty that have openly opposed the rules in my country, and deemed them unsafe.

I just accept that there are different rules in different places, no place will ever be perfect, and we must accept and acknowledge that the rules in each place must be respected.

But I suppose you are on the bandwagon and you and your mates will continue the plight to dismiss that viewpoint, so I will continue (as long as I can be bothered) to defend it and this will continue your pointless discussion.

At some stage it will become clear to you that your efforts are in vien as I do not circumb to peer pressure. I prefer to discuss the point and come to an agreement using honesty. I could care less if you or any other DZ.commer may disagree with me or attempt to silence me, as long as I have my integrety, I have everything I need.

We don't have to all agree on everything, if we did we wouldn't have anything to talk about...
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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