0
rhys

The number of jumps required for jumping a camera in different countries

Recommended Posts

Apparently, according to the moderator of the photography and video forum, that place is not the appropriate place to 'discuss' the regulation pertaining to jumping a camera.
:S

Quote

I warned you that there wasn't going to be debate on US rules and every one else' rules in the camera forum.
The Photo forum isn't SC nor General, and it's kept very clear and concise for a reason.

Take some time off. (30 days)



And I have been banned from that forum for 30 days for doing so. I beleive that action is quite inapropriate but it is the perogative of the concerned moderator, and he has the authority to do so.

That is why I am posting here, and not in the camera forum where this information rightly belongs.

This subject Is very important in my opinion as the number of cameras around these days is quite astounding and ever increasing, there are varying viewpoints on the subject, and with that there are varying rules in diffrent locations.

That very same moderator has a 'sticky' at the top of the page that is supposed to answer basic quetions anyone might have, and this subject is the on the top of the list (go figure). I noticed he used 'ONLY' the USPA guidelines, and my problem with that is that I am not located in the USA, those recomendatios ar quite different to what I was subject to, this is an international website so this information is false for many people that read here.

I don't really wish to debate the subject further, I would just like it to be known that the USPA 'recommendation' is not the be all and end all, and is not necessarily applicable to you if you are not located in the USA.

A number of organisations regulating skydiving in other countries allow jumpers to use cameras in freefall and under parachute at numbers less than what is 'recommended' by the USPA. Some are the same.

This informations is pertinant to those that wish to travel to or from the USA to skydive and wonder what they are allowed to do at that certain place.

I looked into a few (english speaking) places and
here are a few examples of the rules in a couple of different countries, that allow camera jumping before the 200 jump benchmark of the USPA.

I'll start with South Africa, as that country is the origin of this website;

Quote

South Africa;



CAMERAPERSONS
Camerapersons not yet in possession of a B licence shall have their helmets approved by the CI / SO.
Camerapersons must wear a functioning altimeter, a functioning audible altimeter and a hook knife.
Camerapersons must be au-fait with an appropriate camera cutaway procedure.
There are three recognised groups of camera work each with it’s own specific minimum requirements:


5.1 BASIC CAMERA
– a single camera used or worn to film from within a skydive
Minimum requirements:
• Category II in any one of FS, AE or S&A
• must have the signed approval of the CI / SO

• B Licence
− At least 75 free fall descents.
− Hold a valid A Licence.
− Prior to jumping non-student equipment:
o have received an advanced canopy control briefing (logged)
o have demonstrated safe, competent canopy control to the satisfaction of his CI
(own spot)
− Obtained Category III status in a recognised discipline.
− Pass the B Licence test as administered by the CI.



Quote



Canada
http://www.cspa.ca/cwc/english/techrec.htm
3.23 Camera Jumps (Videographers)
Parachutists, possessing at least a C CoP, and being competent in the freefall discipline in which they wish to participate as a videographer, should seek advice from experienced freefall videographers regarding the type of equipment to be used in order that they may safely engage in this activity. At least one functioning audible altimeter must be used, and an Automatic Activation Device should also be used.



"C" CoP
Introduction
The holder of a "C" CoP may:
• qualify for the position of DZ Safety Officer
• participate in a CSPA Coach 2 course
• apply for an EJR once 500 jumps have been accumulated
• participate in a CSPA PFFI course once 600 jumps and 6 hours of freefall have been accumulated. Must be C2 qualified and hold one of JM or SSI rating.
Prerequisites

"C" CoP
Introduction
The holder of a "C" CoP may:
• qualify for the position of DZ Safety Officer
• participate in a CSPA Coach 2 course
• apply for an EJR once 500 jumps have been accumulated
• participate in a CSPA PFFI course once 600 jumps and 6 hours of freefall have been accumulated. Must be C2 qualified and hold one of JM or SSI rating.

Prerequisites

TASKS
Performed 25 self-guided standup accuracy jumps within 10 m of target JM, SSI, C2, IB
Completed 100 relative-work skydives; 25 of which are 4 way or larger C2, IB
In freefall, demonstrated a horizontal flat track. C2
Completed two of the following five tasks:
• 5 FS 4 way jumps with 5 or more completed formations within 35 sec of exit using a minimum of 4 different FAI formations per jump C2, FS Judge, Video
• Style series in less than 13 seconds C2, IB, QE
• Freefly series in less than 16 seconds (From the sit, backloop, frontloop, 360 right turn, 360 left turn, cartwheel right, cartwheel left) C2, IB, Judged using Air to Air Video
• 5 CF 4 way jumps with 4 rotations (5 points) within 2 min 30 sec of aircraft exit JM, C2, IA
• Less than 15 cm scored on an electronic scoring pad on 5 precision accuracy jumps C2, IB, QE
Completed the Emergency Procedures Review C
C2, IB
Completed 200 jumps and accumulated 60 min FF time C2, IB
Achieved a pass mark of a least 80% on a written exam administered by a CSPA CA IB, CA




Quote

Australia;

http://hq.apf.asn.au:85/index.php/Operational_Regulations#DIVISION_5_.E2.80.93_CAMERA_DESCENTS

DIVISION 5 – CAMERA DESCENTS
11.5.1 Approval by DZSO All Camera Descents must be made only with the approval of a DZSO.
11.5.2 Minimum Experience A Parachutist must not carry a camera during a descent unless:
a) The Parachutist holds at least a Certificate ‘C’; and
b) The DZSO has given approval for the Parachutist to carry the camera concerned.

4.2.4 Certificate ‘C’
Applicants for a Certificate ‘C’ must:
(a) Either:
(i) Be the holder of a Certificate ‘B’; or
(ii) Have applied for and be eligible to be granted a Certificate ‘B’.
(b) Have made at least one hundred (100) Stable Freefalls; and
(c) Have made at least twenty (20) Descents landing within ten (10) metres of the Target centre; and
(d) Have completed five (5) consecutively nominated Descents landing within twenty (20) metres of the Target centre.




New Zealand Has 3 different licencing organisations, each with thier own rules, the jump numbers for jumping camera ranges from 100 jumps to 200 jumps, The best thing to do there is to contact the DZ you wish to jumps at and ask them.



So at the end of the day, you will find different rules and guidelines in different places, please read the rules and regulations of your intended location when determining what should and should not be done. Your local dropzone may have thier own guidelines also so the best place to get your infomation is there.

Be safe and have fun,

Rhys

P.S. maybe this should be a sticky, as there is an increasing number of threads on this subject.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

please read the rules and regulations of your intended location when determining what should and should not be done. Your local dropzone may have thier own guidelines also so the best place to get your infomation is there.



But for goodness sakes don't pay any attention to recommendations from other places because they don't apply at all! Right?

Can you tell me what part of the USPA SIM's recommendations regarding camera jumping that you don't agree with? I mean specifically, not just the 200 jumps part.

Local rules aren't always the best sources of information. Skydivers have a tendency to only learn from what they see with their own eyes. After a Vigil misfire at my DZ, they became extremely unpopular. At least one jumper actually switched to a cypres just for the peace of mind. Reading about it on the internet doesn't have quite the same effect.

Seatbelts on jump planes is a lesson learned many times in the US. It's rare to find a DZ in the US that's lenient about seatbelt usage. But cross the border and the lesson didn't transfer. Too far from the source?

Aside from the fact that you guys fall in the wrong direction, the physics of skydiving is the same everywhere. You don't have to follow rules that don't apply to your location, but don't you think it's important to know they exist? Like "have fun, but just realize what you're doing wouldn't be allowed in ____." I think we'll start seeing more of that when it comes to canopy types and sizes, since the US has no rules on that either.

Dave

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'd love to know which mod gave you a time-out. I mean, I know that camera flier are anal retentive, but 30 days for asking is a little ridiculous.
DZ.com turf must be fiercely defended, at all costs, no matter how big a douchenozzle you need to be to do so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Can you tell me what part of the USPA SIM's recommendations regarding camera jumping that you don't agree with? I mean specifically, not just the 200 jumps part.

Local rules aren't always the best sources of information.



I am not going to debate this again.

local rules are what are used by local DZ's.

They should be considered first and foremost. Others can be considered.

NZ and South africa do not allow tandem ratings to be issued to those with less than 1000 jumps, there is a reason for that also. 500 jumps is far too little for me for tandems, but is commonplace in the USA and other countires. I am used to different rules to you, much the same as you are to me.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I'd love to know which mod gave you a time-out. I mean, I know that camera flier are anal retentive, but 30 days for asking is a little ridiculous.
DZ.com turf must be fiercely defended, at all costs, no matter how big a douchenozzle you need to be to do so.



It was DSE.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

To be somewhat fair, this does not belong in the photography forum, ban being another topic..

Photography and Video
A den for freefall photographers and videographers to discuss cameras, helmets, and exchange tips and techniques.



So the use of cameras, the regulation of such and who should use them does not belong in the photography and video forum?

Give me a break.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The Netherlands:

For camerawork in freefall:
B-license, 200 freefall formation jumps, audio altimeter, permission from instructor.

For camerawork purely under canopy (ie, film CRW):
B-license, 10 CRW jumps, permission from instructor.

B-license is at least 50 freefall jumps, perform a number of tasks in freefall and under canopy, choose 1 competition event (FS, CRW, Accuracy, FF, freestyle or style) and perform a numer of tasks for that, plus a written test.
Most people take way longer than 50 jumps to get all this, especially if you choose freefly or CRW.

Quote

Artikel 510 Beschermende verplichtingen voor bijzondere sprongen
Lid 1. Voor het gebruik van een camera-uitrusting (foto en/of video) gelden de volgende eisen:
· In vrije val: B-brevet en 200 formatiesprongen en een juist ingestelde en gedurende de
sprong hoorbare audiohoogtemeter.
· Onder geopende parachute: B-brevet en 10 CF-sprongen
· Toestemming van de instructeur



ciel bleu,
Saskia

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

You must have a old CSPA PIM 1A, only need a B for the last 2, maybe 3 years do not recall exactly.



So 50 freefall jumps (absolute minumum).

It is interesting that they lowered the number of required jumps from 100 (absolute minimum).

I bet some reader here would have their blood boiling over that decision...

Just goes to show the varience in attitudes toward the subject.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

rhys

with all due respect.....

you had made 29 Posts...in this thread and others on this subject.... in just the last 2 days.....

I GET IT!!!!!:|

what you're saying.....[:/] and saying and saying.....

that "world-wide" recommendations vary!!!!

well THAT's no surprise... it's a big world with terrific variety...

basically "when in Rome, Do as the Romans" would seem to apply...
BUT in terms of the topic of skydivers flying a camera....
you DO seem to be tooooo strongly endorsing ...
Bare Minimums as they apply to Jump #s....

Ok fine.. Thanks for bringing to our collective attention,,, just what the details are....in NZ, in Canada, In EU

as i click on your profile,,, and assume it to be accurate... Your terrific jumps #'s in a relatively short number of years... do mark you, as having quite an exceptional pace , as opposed to the median, and average numbers which many jumpers can manage..
SO maybe, Just maybe. you have a skewed concept of what MOST other jumpers are capable of doing....:|

As stated by many, it is SO much MORE than some random number,,, be that number 100, or 50 or 200 OR 1,000.......

perhaps not alll jumpers progress as fast as you have... ( and i applaud you and envy you for averaging almost 1,000 jumps a YEAR!!!!! ) but for the general "weekend warrior' skydiver, who builds his or her freefall time in minutes, and NOT hours,,,, SO much needs to be experienced, absorbed, understood, and LEarned !!! prior to
taking a HUGE part of the jumpers mental focus, and designating it to a camera....>:(

Often Other aspects of the skydive from gearing Up all the way through safely landing,,, can unintentionally suffer,, as the jumper complicates things with ANY type of camera....

So can we sorta agree that numbers are Different in different places, and leave it at that..???

Where we would really be making a mistake is to interpret ANY numerical milestone,,, as Automatically conferring on ALL jumpers, some magical "abilty" to now fly a camera...:S
I had 1,725 jumps when i made my # 1 video camera jump....it was 1995..

but you don't hear me tellin' You or anyone else that THAT should be the benchmark..:o
Common sense on the dropzone,
Second Nature Flying abilities, level headed decision making, and strict attention to skydiving gear ANd camera gear...
seem to me, to be the foundations upon which safe camera flyers are built..and Not some amount of pages,,,,, turned in a log book...
peace
jmy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

rhys

with all due respect.....

you had made 29 Posts...in this thread and others on this subject.... in just the last 2 days.....

I GET IT!!!!!



It seems to me you do not.

Quote

as i click on your profile,,, and assume it to be accurate... Your terrific jumps #'s in a relatively short number of years... do mark you, as having quite an exceptional pace , as opposed to the median, and average numbers which many jumpers can manage..
SO maybe, Just maybe. you have a skewed concept of what MOST other jumpers are capable of doing....Unimpressed



The reason I was able to do those numbers in that time, was because i was able to jump with a camera, at 100 jumps, then I was able to film tandems at 200 jumps, then I was a commercial skydiver at 250 jumps.

and from there I averaged around 1000 jumps a year..

Part of my point is that some guidelines hold back those that are capable, for the sake of those that are not. That is not a debate, it is my opinion.

I am no more physically eligible than anyone else at running this progression, I simply was not held back, had the opportunities and gave it my all.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


Quote

rhys

with all due respect.....

you had made 29 Posts...in this thread and others on this subject.... in just the last 2 days.....

I GET IT!!!!!



It seems to me you do not.

Quote

as i click on your profile,,, and assume it to be accurate... Your terrific jumps #'s in a relatively short number of years... do mark you, as having quite an exceptional pace , as opposed to the median, and average numbers which many jumpers can manage..
SO maybe, Just maybe. you have a skewed concept of what MOST other jumpers are capable of doing....Unimpressed



***The reason I was able to do those numbers in that time, was because i was able to jump with a camera, at 100 jumps, then I was able to film tandems at 200 jumps, then I was a commercial skydiver at 250 jumps.

and from there I averaged around 1000 jumps a year..

Part of my point is that some guidelines hold back those that are capable, for the sake of those that are not. That is not a debate, it is my opinion.

I am no more physically eligible than anyone else at running this progression, I simply was not held back, had the opportunities and gave it my all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

The reason I was able to do those numbers in that time, was because i was able to jump with a camera, at 100 jumps, then I was able to film tandems at 200 jumps, then I was a commercial skydiver at 250 jumps.



This progression is completely against all recommendations set forth. So if everyone were equally allowed to make this exact same progression, the question is would the incident statistics rise or stay the same? I suggest they would rise. The recommendations are for the majority not the minority. It is called error on the safe side. If one fatality could be averted then they are far better than the progression above.
I will honestly say you would not have made that progression here or specifically at my DZ. and you know what, based on your numbers you would have ended up in the same spot. I am not swayed to put the safety of the whole in jeopardy, for the speedy progression of the few who may or may not be able to do what you did.

Quote

I was a commercial skydiver at 250 jumps



At 250 jumps you can call yourself whatever you want but a seasoned Instructor with experience under your belt, in freefall, canopy, landing, you are not. This really bothers me that passengers think they are in the hands of a certified experienced professional skydiver. If something were to happen especially in the U.S. you can bet your ass that their will be plenty ready to testify that at 250 jumps you are far from a commerical skydiver. What ever that is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

will honestly say you would not have made that progression here or specifically at my DZ. and you know what, based on your numbers you would have ended up in the same spot. I am not swayed to put the safety of the whole in jeopardy, for the speedy progression of the few who may or may not be able to do what you did.



I suggest you take that up with the NZPIA, APF, and any other organisation that allows this progression.

I didn't write the rules, I am just pointing them out.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am not argueing the point at all, toeach country their own. In this one I do have some say, so I will voice an educated opinion. Again this is not directed at the person just the situation posed. It could be anyone, especially because I do not know the person.

Further, and based on quotes and replies, I do not even know which poster had those numbers...lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Listen you bring up a good topic for debate the problem lies it has been battled in here a thousand times over and most are tired of hearing about it. Usually the OP is a person wanting to skirt the recommendations, and not willing to listen to anyone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

So the use of cameras, the regulation of such and who should use them does not belong in the photography and video forum?



By definition, yes

Quote

Give me a break.


:D:D
You got one...30 days in the hole.
:D:D
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Damn that bad DSE for first warning that debate on the merits of the NZ system vs USPA wouldn't be allowed (again) in the photo forum, and then pulling the ban hammer out when bitching about the Sticky Post is only about USPA.

NZPIA and ParaNZ officials (as well as officials from any other parachuting organization in the world) are invited to share their camera rules/recommendations/ratings and they'll be published as part of the sticky.
But the Photo forum isn't the place to fight about camera rules/recommendations/ratings, particularly when there are several active threads in S&T and General, to which this OP has posted dozens of times already.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Damn that bad DSE for first warning that debate on the merits of the NZ system vs USPA wouldn't be allowed (again) in the photo forum, and then pulling the ban hammer out when bitching about the Sticky Post is only about USPA.



So the sticky post is relevant to the forum but the rules that many (from countries other than your own) will be interested to know are not...

I started this thread to inform those that were ill informed by your post.

Don't turn it into a debate about who is better than who, by feeding the trolls.

Canadians, New Zealanders, Australians, South Africans... deserve the correct information as well.

Simple.

Quote

NZPIA and ParaNZ officials (as well as officials from any other parachuting organization in the world) are invited to share their camera rules/recommendations/ratings and they'll be published as part of the sticky.



Which is not likely to happen, you have said that already and that is why this thread was started.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I am not going to debate this again.



Promise?

Cool.

Then we can agree that you're done here and we can stop this thread.

BTW, posting in other forums to get around a forum ban . . . bad form. Please don't do that again.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Then we can agree that you're done here and we can stop this thread.

BTW, posting in other forums to get around a forum ban . . . bad form. Please don't do that again.



What would be the reason for stopping the thread?

I am not getting around a ban, I was told that the content of this thread has no place in the photography forum.

And I am not done here, I am done arguing over which country has the best rules and which are more appropriate.

Anyone that thinks they know it all, is inherently mistaken, and we can all learn something from each other.

This is a serious storm in a teacup.

you lot need to cool off a little.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0