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KrisFlyZ

Tracking : True or false?

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A very good tracker wearing a "normal" RW suit with booties can -maybe- get in the neighborhood of 1:1.



Is this a guess or is there telemetry to go with it? Without a wingsuit, the human body really isn't that efficient of a lifting planform (even with a wingsuit it's not that great). I'm more inclined to believe .6 to 1.

Bob

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1:1 is consistent with what I've seen of the Golden Knights tracking demonstrations. IIRC it is called a "diamond track," and results in two smoke trails crossing at about a right angle, which indicates 1:1 in an established track for both jumpers.


Blue skies,

Winsor

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Cough, cough, cough....

huh 1:1 in tracking, that is something i'd like to see.
Well my canopy has a glide ratio of 2.2:1. wing suit with robert p. inside (i think he knows how to track;)) has a glide ratio of 1.3:1 with his newest wingsuit.

Do you really think that golden nights track 1:1 with only booties on their legs???

I think that even 0.6:1 is realllyyyy gooood!
"George just lucky i guess!"

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wing suit with robert p. inside (i think he knows how to track) has a glide ratio of 1.3:1 with his newest wingsuit.



I think Robi and Yuri (and others) are approaching 2.5:1 in their wingsuits.

1:1 tracking implies the same horizontal speed as vertical so even if you dropped your fallrate to 80 mph you still need 80 mph of forward speed to get 1:1 - sounds a bit optimistic to me.

Gus
OutpatientsOnline.com

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If I might...

At good (i.e. low) glide angles, such as attained by high performance gliders, the hypotenuse can be used as a proxy for the adjacent side, without introducing much error - in other words the aircraft's airspeed can be used as a proxy for the distance covered horizontally (assuming still air).

At the atrocious glide angles attained by skydiving canopies and worse, by human beans, this is no longer the case - you have to work with the actual distance covered horizontally and the sink rate. At a 'real' glide angle of 1:1 (45deg) if you were falling at, say, 80mph (and achieving a horizontal speed of 80mph) your airspeed would be 113mph-ish.

HTH, HAND.

John

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wing suit with robert p. inside (i think he knows how to track) has a glide ratio of 1.3:1 with his newest wingsuit.


If I recall correctly, Robert was talking about a 3:1 ratio in that suit, not 1.3. Now, he might not be the most modest man in the world:P, but I wouldn't say he was off by a lot, if at all.

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Jump run was 1/2 mile west of the DZ and into the wind (South), I opened 2 miles to the East of the DZ. I drove the road from where I opened to the edge of the DZ and added 1/2 mile. The pilot used GPS to fly jumprun 1/2 mile to the West and maintain a straight jumprun to keep the competion fair (it was a whole otter load). Pro-Track for exit, opening altitudes and free-fall speeds.

I looked it up on Jump-Track
Exit:13,500
Deploy:2,100
Free-fall time: 102 sec
By my math that equals 76 mph avg speed and a 1.158:1 Glide ratio.

Derek

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Well my canopy has a glide ratio of 2.2:1.



Wow and they say Spectres have crappy glide ratios! My Spectre has a glide ratio of right around 3:1. What the hell are you jumping?
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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Wow and they say Spectres have crappy glide ratios! My Spectre has a glide ratio of right around 3:1. What the hell are you jumping?



According to Scott Miller (how many times have I said that?) the Spectre has a very flat glide, flatter than the Sabre2. This is all referring to full glide, i.e. no toggle input. A Sabre2 can be given a flatter glide with toggle input than a Spectre can, if I understand correctly.
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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I think maybe my scarcasim was lost in the internet somewhere. ;)

My point is that I think perhaps some folks don't knnow how to calculate glide ratios correctly. Either that or they're just coming up with the wrong answers.

BTW, scarcasim is like sarcasim, it's just supposed to leave a mark. ;)
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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Jump run was 1/2 mile west of the DZ and into the wind (South), I opened 2 miles to the East of the DZ. I drove the road from where I opened to the edge of the DZ and added 1/2 mile. The pilot used GPS to fly jumprun 1/2 mile to the West and maintain a straight jumprun to keep the competion fair (it was a whole otter load). Pro-Track for exit, opening altitudes and free-fall speeds.

I looked it up on Jump-Track
Exit:13,500
Deploy:2,100
Free-fall time: 102 sec
By my math that equals 76 mph avg speed and a 1.158:1 Glide ratio.

Derek



I know Olav Zipser was measured at over 1:1 in a regular freefly suit, and I believe Rook Nelson is up there too. I'm an old f@rt, and I reckon I get around 0.8 based on fall rate and watching the fields go by.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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According to Scott Miller (how many times have I said that?) the Spectre has a very flat glide, flatter than the Sabre2. This is all referring to full glide, i.e. no toggle input. A Sabre2 can be given a flatter glide with toggle input than a Spectre can, if I understand correctly.



Are you saying that a spectre 210 in full flight has a higher glide ratio than a sabre2 210 in full flight?

That seems wrong in my mind. Maybe its not wrong but it feels wrong :S
__

My mighty steed

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I have 60 - 70 jumps in my BirdMan Pantz (the BASE version). I have an average fall rate of about 76 MPH and a forward speed of about 85MPH (no wind) when going for "float" -- 1.12:1. When going for distance, my fall rate is about 80MPH and my forward speed is about 90MPH -- 1.13:1. With wind assistance, the glide ratio goes up quite a bit.

I also have just under 400 wingsuit flights. In a Skyflyer 3, glide ratios of greater than 2:1 are commonplace. Many are doing over 2.3:1, and some are over 2.5:1. That's in no wind. With wind assistance, you're looking at upwards of near 4:1.

In a recent video, I covered 1900' horizontally in a 1700' freefall (including deployment) in 15 seconds in BirdMan Pantz. That was a glide ratio of 1.12:1, a fall rate of 77MPH, and a forward speed of 86MPH. In a normal freefly suit, my forward speed is about the same, but my fall rate is usually mid-80s to low-90s -- the glide is still around 1:1. There are at least a few supertrackers (to whom I hail) who're getting over 1.2:1 in a just a RW suit.

Data sources for the above are ProTrack, GPS, and video.

Talk to manufacturers of high performance canopies that also really understand wingsuits, and they'll tell you that you get a better glide from a wingsuit than a small canopy. This is something I've witnessed on many occassions, as well.

In other words, glide ratios greater than or equal to 1:1 are very common with just about any apparel configuration... except naked or shorts/t-shirt -- where 0.7:1 is pretty damn good.
"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

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ha, haa, ha... Grega,

I would trash all my suits and will start sale newspapers at the corrner if my ws would fly at 1:1.3
To get the 2.5 glide is very possible ( many of good WS flyers have that glide nowdays)
Also, the results from some big walls BASE tracking obviously shows that 1:1 tracking happening too.

3:1 is also very easy to get , just pitch down , get the speed and then flare out. It will not last for long but it is nice feeling :))

R
Robert Pecnik
robert@phoenix-fly.com
www.phoenix-fly.com

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According to Scott Miller (how many times have I said that?) the Spectre has a very flat glide, flatter than the Sabre2. This is all referring to full glide, i.e. no toggle input. A Sabre2 can be given a flatter glide with toggle input than a Spectre can, if I understand correctly.



Are you saying that a spectre 210 in full flight has a higher glide ratio than a sabre2 210 in full flight?

That seems wrong in my mind. Maybe its not wrong but it feels wrong :S



I can't say from personal experience, but PD says the Spectre has a flatter glide than the Sabre2 in full flight.

http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/Spectre-Flight-Char.pdf

"Be braver -- you can't cross a chasm in two small jumps."

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OK, OK, i guess i messed up some numbers... :$:)

i'll do a little more research.


Oh btw i once had a glide ratio of 1:1, not falling but climbing !!! all you have to do is make a sharp turn with your canopy, and then brake hard (don't stall it). you'll have a glide ratio of 1:1 climbing. it won't last long but it's a good feeling gaining height for a few seconds.. :P

What i ment with glide ratio is how far is the most you can get.

by glide ratio 1:1 if you jump from 4000m and open at 1000m, that's 3000m of freefall. with glide ratio of 1:1 for 3000m of freefall you'll cover 3000m horizontaly. so you can jump out of airpline 3000m away (horizontaly) and you'll open above the airport (in no wind of course) at glide ratio 1:2 you can jump 6000m away. at 3:1 9000m away.

Not saying it's not true just asking... is it ??

I know that with my canopy opened at 800m if i'm 2000m away i'll barely get to the dz in no wind. with about 25% of brakes for the best glide ratio of my canopy. So yes i guess my canopies best glide ratio is somewhere around 2.2 and i'm flying cobalt comp. loaded 1.7
And spectres almost definitely have better glide ratio. My canopy is more designed for swooping than for gliding...

i'm not saying that birdman suits don't have 2.5:1 or 3:0 glide ratio, I don't know, i've never flown one. it just seems a loooot comparing to any canopy and surface the canopy has comparing to wingsuits surface... :o
"George just lucky i guess!"

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OK, OK, i guess i messed up some numbers... :$:)

i'll do a little more research.


Oh btw i once had a glide ratio of 1:1, not falling but climbing !!! all you have to do is make a sharp turn with your canopy, and then brake hard (don't stall it). you'll have a glide ratio of 1:1 climbing. it won't last long but it's a good feeling gaining height for a few seconds.. :P

What i ment with glide ratio is how far is the most you can get.

by glide ratio 1:1 if you jump from 4000m and open at 1000m, that's 3000m of freefall. with glide ratio of 1:1 for 3000m of freefall you'll cover 3000m horizontaly. so you can jump out of airpline 3000m away (horizontaly) and you'll open above the airport (in no wind of course) at glide ratio 1:2 you can jump 6000m away. at 3:1 9000m away.

Not saying it's not true just asking... is it ??

I know that with my canopy opened at 800m if i'm 2000m away i'll barely get to the dz in no wind. with about 25% of brakes for the best glide ratio of my canopy. So yes i guess my canopies best glide ratio is somewhere around 2.2 and i'm flying cobalt comp. loaded 1.7
And spectres almost definitely have better glide ratio. My canopy is more designed for swooping than for gliding...

i'm not saying that birdman suits don't have 2.5:1 or 3:0 glide ratio, I don't know, i've never flown one. it just seems a loooot comparing to any canopy and surface the canopy has comparing to wingsuits surface... :o



Glide ratio is determined by the lift/drag ratio, not the surface area.

Descent rate depends strongly on surface area.

I think you have confused the two concepts.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Glide ratio is determined by the lift/drag ratio, not the surface area.

Descent rate depends strongly on surface area.

I think you have confused the two concepts.



Yes i know that. it's just that in most cases the lighter the wingloading the better the glide ratio is (Sail planes, paragliders,... spaceshuttle)
I know glide ratio depends on how much lift/air resistance the wing produces. but it also depends on the wingloading surface/weight... that's why i mentioned surface. it just entered my mind first. i know it's a lot more than just surface...
"George just lucky i guess!"

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I know glide ratio depends on how much lift/air resistance the wing produces. but it also depends on the wingloading surface/weight... that's why i mentioned surface.


This is simply incorrect.

Glide ratio is (within any acceptable working limits) independant of wing loading.

The thing that matters is the ratio of lift to drag created by the system.

If I had two Spectres, both the same size, one loaded at 1:1 and the other at 3:1, they would have the same glide ratio. The one loaded at 3:1 would have a faster decent rate and higher airspeed but the glide ratio would remain the same as the one loaded at 1:1.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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I know that with my canopy opened at 800m if i'm 2000m away i'll barely get to the dz in no wind. with about 25% of brakes for the best glide ratio of my canopy. So yes i guess my canopies best glide ratio is somewhere around 2.2 and i'm flying cobalt comp. loaded 1.7
And spectres almost definitely have better glide ratio. My canopy is more designed for swooping than for gliding...



You would do well to read up on aerodynamics. A good place to start might be http://www.av8n.com/how/.

"Swooping" and gliding are, for the most part, the same thing. Think about it.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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