Which EP Method is taught at your DZ?

[stratostar 5]

I would say it is all in how you started, my thinking is always better to keep your hands free for the next job, like realing back in and tossing back out your canopy should the need be.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[faulknerwn 36]

The funniest part is - I don't even have the faintest clue how I was originally taught - far too long ago.

I think my propensity to hanging onto handles is as much to being a bad student and having to hang onto a ripcord for far too many of em!

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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After graduating and watching a friend on a borrowed rig throw away the handles (thus having to pay for the handles) I realized if I have the presence of mind to hold the handle I will,

So what your telling us is you place a value of Appx. 120.00 dollars on your life. Now that seems kind of silly to me.

Now before you go off on me and try to feed me some line of bullshit about how your handles can't, won't, couldn't, cause any problems, there is a new friend of mine who has been around many many years in the sport and he is not doing well, this wise old timer has been heard to say "think up everything that can't go wrong, and it probably will, once!" That would be Al Frisby and what I have learned from guys like him is, never say never, just because it hasn't happend to you or your buddys YET, don't mean it won't happen!"

Point being why have the handles in your hand and the cables flop'n in the breeze in close proxmity to your head/back where your reserve (last chance) is deploying from and risk an entanglement.

Sure I know plenty of people who lived from doing it, but I've seen some pretty weird shit too in my time in the sport, I think I toss my handles when the shit hits the fan, we have been training this for years, WHY, because more then one person lost their life over a 40.00 dollar handle.

I hear what you're saying, Strato, and I doubt that I'd personally ever hang-onto a cut-away or reserve handle following a cut-away if tossing them meant freeing up my hands to deal with what ever needed to be dealt with (e.g... kicking out of line twists under a reserve or get to flying it because of being saddled low).

I remember, as a student, being taught in the event of a cut-away/reserve ride, toss the handles and start to work on flying your reserve and I remember practicing EPs as such while a student.

I too get displeased when the good natured "jabs" towards an experienced jumper that comes down safe on their reserve sans a handle or two turns into ridin' their ass too hard about tossing a handle.

Having said that though, there are two distinct things I remember from my 1st reserve ride, all the way back on my 20th jump. The PD230 main in the rental rig I was jumping opened into a line-over (Mae West). I took one look at it and decided to get rid of it... the first distinct thing I can remember was a stong sense of disappointment that the main didn't work. I quickly decided I needed to do my EPs... I ain't saying I was all cool and laid back about it like it was no big deal, but it wasn't like I was freakin' out either, I recognized the problem and got to work being busy dealing with it... look red, grasp red, look silver, grasp silver, pull red, pull siver, arch, check check. In short, it was a text book cut-away and reserve deployment... the reserve was open/fully inflated, slider down, no line twists, flying on heading, plenty of altitude left (I was under the reserve above 2K)... at that point, I looked at both handles still in my hands... and here's the second distinct thing I remember from my 1st reserve ride... thinking to myself it would be a waste to toss these now, so I stuffed both handles down my jumpsuit and proceded to fly the reserve, land, buy beer and a bottle for the rigger, tell my "no shit there I was stories", etc.

[Unstable 8]

We teach our students with an SOS system, so I guess the answer is -neither-

Arch - look - reach - pull

just the one handle with both hands.

=========Shaun ==========

[stratostar 5]

Wendy Yes I can totally understand how the mind slips with age one of the reasons it is so easy for me to remember my EP's of days ago, is ,1. I was trained to do it, 2. I trained a lot of people to do it and 3. I still jump those types of gear, both belly warts and piggybacks, I even have a piggyback that you attach a second and third reserve to the front in warts, talk about weight and handles. The piggybacks even have factory Jesus Strings and ripcord housings that can be used as a object to pull on just like a jesus string, but better because it will pull the pins, in other words if you can get your handle you can grab the whole housing and start pulling.

I still train those willing to jump that old shit too, I was at the dz yesterday doing rigging on the collection getting ready for the 20th Richmond "The" Boogie, as it stands right now the collection has 18 complete rigs ready to jump. I own 6 and one was own by another, the rest are DZ owned. We have two other members coming with their rigs so that adds another 7 for a total, plus Roy (cameramonkey) 1 and Buds 1, Dan Byrds 2 makes 29 jumpable rigs and I have parts for another 5 if I can find the other parts needed to build them.

As I was packing those rigs and looking over all the different rigs before me, it is quite clear that we have one hell of a collection of sport death rigs every type of capewell and a huge difference in rig types, handles and locations and PC class canopies and reserves and deployment systems.

ZigZag

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and here's the second distinct thing I remember from my 1st reserve ride... thinking to myself it would be a waste to toss these now, so I stuffed both handles down my jumpsuit and proceded to fly the reserve, land, buy beer and a bottle for the rigger, tell my "no shit there I was stories", etc.

I understand your point as well, as I said I know people who have done so a lived, myself is one of those just as you did word for word. My point to the poster I was replying to was what is was, they are a lowtimer with little time or jumps, seems pertty stupid to me to hear a rookie make a statement that ,

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After graduating and watching a friend on a borrowed rig throw away the handles (thus having to pay for the handles) I realized if I have the presence of mind to hold the handle I will,

I'm betting this person don't even have one chop or delt with shit going wrong yet, and that brings me back the the rounds, last year I test jumped a rig, I always try to test jump each and every rig before we let someome jump it, this time I was jumping my personal wonderhog and had a MK-1 in a pod turned sideways and some funky rigging on the hand deploy, so I wasn't even really sure what was going to happen. The reserve was packed no more then 15 mins before I was on the plane, when the canopy opened it had a "frontal tuck" type issue, from the ground and plane it looked like a "line over" type mal and everyone (noobies) all worked up and yelling to cutwaway. I was busy grabing riser and tugging trying to get it to clear and checking my dial as I was spinning around, I still had a lot of time to work with it and followed the 3 try rule, I got it cleared.

Now before you all try to bust my balls about in air rigging, you need to understand more about rounds and why it was ok for me to work it out. With this little problem I had I could have landed it, I also had a good enough spin going I could have just pulled the reserve and let it deploy behind and land with both, or cutaway.

As I have been building out this rig collection and having many, many first time round jumpers use them, I have had to order custom ripcords to get the rigs in the air, I still stand behind my statements and would rather have to call jumpshack and reorder a new custom ripcord built, then have someone go in because they didn't want to chuck a 50 dollar handle and keep their hands free to do what might need to be done to live!

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[astor 0]

Sorry for bringing a student view into this expert debate, but I think it should be emphasized the necessity of performing ANY EP in case of a mal.

We had three fatalities in Czechia and Slovakia during the two past years (1, 2, 3) and the failure to perform any EPs was the main contributing factor in each of them.

I was taught for the one-hand-for-each-handle method. When I had a mal on jump #5 and saw the ball of shit above my head, I immediately looked for the red and puled it. Just after it I located the silver handle and pulled it too. But (despite of the RSL installed) I had time enough to enjoy the remaining second of freefall (looking at the handles in my hands) until I saw the most beatiful canopy in my life. And - I am still here...

[roam82 0]

Hi,

I was reading some post on the incident forum this morning and I got interested on the this EP procedure topic....

I don't see any reason to use the one hand per handle method with an RSL installed...

maybe it has been discussed already...sorry if it has...

F.

[labrys 0]

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I don't see any reason to use the one hand per handle method with an RSL installed...

RSLs break, get disconnected, and get connected incorrectly. The existence (or not) of an RSL shouldn't matter WRT the emergency procedures that are taught to new students.

Owned by Remi #?

[riggerpaul 1]

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Hi,

I was reading some post on the incident forum this morning and I got interested on the this EP procedure topic....

I don't see any reason to use the one hand per handle method with an RSL installed...

maybe it has been discussed already...sorry if it has...

F.

I have discovered rigs where the hidden end of the RSL did not have the reserve cable through the ring.

That RSL would not pull the pin.

Regardless of which EP was taught, the reserve ripcord would have to be pulled for that reserve to deploy.

(Please, let's just ignore the "option" of letting the AAD do it.)

That's ample reason for me to insist that the handle is pulled regardless of one's belief in one's RSL.

You said, "I don't see any reason to use the one hand per handle method with an RSL installed...".

If that means you don't think you should have to pull the ripcord, I urge you to reconsider.

[billvon 2,396]

>The existence (or not) of an RSL shouldn't matter WRT the emergency
>procedures that are taught to new students.

While I agree that one should never rely on backup devices, the nature of those backup devices often influences emergency procedures. The common "disconnect RSL before cutaway from a two out" is important because of the risk of an AAD misfiring, for example.

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

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The common "disconnect RSL before cutaway from a two out" is important because of the risk of an AAD misfiring, for example.

If I already have two out.... Why would I care about an AAD misfire?

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[billvon 2,396]

>If I already have two out.... Why would I care about an AAD misfire?

Other way around. The reason we care more now about two outs is because of the risk of an AAD fire.

[riggerpaul 1]

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>If I already have two out.... Why would I care about an AAD misfire?

Other way around. The reason we care more now about two outs is because of the risk of an AAD fire.

Still unclear.

Do you mean that the RISK of a two-out is higher (because of AADs), so we need to have a better understanding of our EPs?

But once you have two-out, isn't the response is the same regardless of the AAD situation.

[roam82 0]

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If that means you don't think you should have to pull the ripcord, I urge you to reconsider.

You got me wrong, I was trying to choose a technique over an other...both EP methods end up pulling on both handles...

In the case of having an RSL I do not see much advantages using the one hand per handle method...

From what I understand, the weak point of the 2 hand 1 handle method is finding your reserve handle after the cutaway...The odds of that + an rsl fail are I think pretty low...

[riggerpaul 1]

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If that means you don't think you should have to pull the ripcord, I urge you to reconsider.

You got me wrong, I was trying to choose a technique over an other...both EP methods end up pulling on both handles...

In the case of having an RSL I do not see much advantages using the one hand per handle method...

From what I understand, the weak point of the 2 hand 1 handle method is finding your reserve handle after the cutaway...The odds of that + an rsl fail are I think pretty low...

The odds of an RSL failure are irrelevant.

If you have one, it matters not that is was 1 in a million squared chance.

If you alter your choice of which procedure to use because of the presence of the RSL, you are in some way relying on the RSL.

If you think that the 2 hand on 1 handle is more acceptable in the presence of an RSL, then you have told me that you imagine the RSL will save you even if you cannot find the handle.

That's a bad line of reasoning.

Regardless of the procedure you choose, you must be certain in your own mind that you are GOING to pull the reserve handle.

If you use the 2 hands on one handle method, you must be sure you know how to, and will, find and pull the reserve handle after.

If you use the 1 hand per handle method, you must be certain that your one hand will be able to pull the respective handle.

Regardless of which procedure you choose, you must also be able to everything with either hand alone. I have seen instances where a jumper's arm was broken on exit. If he chooses to deploy his main, and he has a mal, he's only got 1 hand to do EPs. If he chose to go for the reserve instead of the main, he still only has 1 hand to do it.

You originally said, "I don't see any reason to use the one hand per handle method with an RSL installed... ".

How is that not relying on the RSL for something, if not only the choice of methods?

[roam82 0]

the way I see it: no matter which technique I use, I can either do it right or wrong. The rsl could help me it case I f--k up.with the other method if I do something wrong I have no backup.

is that bad resoning? (honestly asking)

what method do you use?why?
do you have an rsl?why?


F.

[riggerpaul 1]

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the way I see it: no matter which technique I use, I can either do it right or wrong. The rsl could help me it case I f--k up.with the other method if I do something wrong I have no backup.

is that bad resoning? (honestly asking)

what method do you use?why?
do you have an rsl?why?


F.

I use one hand on each handle.

I have an RSL.

I used to do a fair amount of CRW. RSL disconnected for that.

Honest answer - if you think about the RSL at all when you are thinking about what EPs to use, you are making a mistake.

Pick the EPs you prefer. Work out all the details you need to work out. Forget about the RSL while you are working all this out.

As Billvon points out, you do need to be aware of the RSL in a two out chop. Disconnect to avoid the snag hazard if you have a one-sided RSL. Disconnect the 2 sided Racer RSL or you can choke off the reserve.

The whole notion of thinking that the backup systems might help is problematic.

You MUST know you can/will do it all yourself. Anything less is an invitation to disaster.

I get it, this is a subtle difference in thought.

You need to be aware of your secondary systems, but you must always presume they will fail when you need them.

If you say, "This is better than that because the RSL..." then you are falling into the trap of relying on your secondary system.

[roam82 0]

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Honest answer - if you think about the RSL at all when you are thinking about what EPs to use, you are making a mistake.

ok, I really dont see why I shouldn't....its simple facts. The thing is there it might help. will react the same with or without, will never give up...

anyhow, I would like to know what other experienced people think about this, maybe I'm wrong after all...thanks for the input riggerpaul.

F.

[billvon 2,396]

>If you alter your choice of which procedure to use because of the presence of
>the RSL, you are in some way relying on the RSL.

RSL's do more than deploy the reserve. They also present a snag hazard. Some can be disconnected; some cannot. All this must be taken into account.

A rig is a fairly complex system. You generally can't change one component without changing the risks to other parts of the system. Any decision made on which set of EP's to teach (indeed, any decision made on any part of a curriculum) cannot be made by ignoring parts of the rig; indeed, that's somewhat foolish.

An RSL, AAD, BOC vs ROL, ripcord vs throwout etc may all change the curriculum and the standard jump procedures at a school. That's not "relying" on them. That's making good decisions concerning teaching a very complex sport.

[riggerpaul 1]

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>If you alter your choice of which procedure to use because of the presence of
>the RSL, you are in some way relying on the RSL.

RSL's do more than deploy the reserve. They also present a snag hazard. Some can be disconnected; some cannot. All this must be taken into account.

A rig is a fairly complex system. You generally can't change one component without changing the risks to other parts of the system. Any decision made on which set of EP's to teach (indeed, any decision made on any part of a curriculum) cannot be made by ignoring parts of the rig; indeed, that's somewhat foolish.

An RSL, AAD, BOC vs ROL, ripcord vs throwout etc may all change the curriculum and the standard jump procedures at a school. That's not "relying" on them. That's making good decisions concerning teaching a very complex sport.

Bill, the conversation was not about what a school might choose to teach. It wasn't about changing components in a rig. Nobody said anything about ignoring the nature of the rig. Nobody said one set of EPs was preferable to the other.

I already said that your remarks regarding RSLs were valid and important.

What we are talking about here is a statement that he chose certain EPs because he has an RSL.

He said, ""I don't see any reason to use the one hand per handle method with an RSL installed... ".

I said that such a path is fraught with danger.

Not every rig will have the RSL that he considered while making his choice.

I said that whatever you choose, you must realize that you must become self-sufficient - that reliance on secondary systems was a dangerous thing.

You have said the same thing over and over.

Nobody said anything about what he was taught, what any school taught, or anything of that nature.

He said he would choose one EP over another because of his RSL.

Do you think that is a good way to think?

[riggerpaul 1]

I need to add that roam82 was not the OP, and his question was not directly related to the thread's original question about what was taught at a dz.

My response to him is not directly related to the question of the OP.

Roam82 said, ""I don't see any reason to use the one hand per handle method with an RSL installed... ".

That's the thing to which I am responding.

His statement leads me to worry that he might rely on the RSL to pull the pin in the event that he cannot find his ripcord.

Not finding the ripcord is simply not an acceptable option.

He further worried me when he said, "From what I understand, the weak point of the 2 hand 1 handle method is finding your reserve handle after the cutaway...The odds of that + an rsl fail are I think pretty low...".

Again, to me this indicates a willingness to accept the notion that he might be unable to find his ripcord.

If one hasn't learned how to find the ripcord under in all situations, one has not learned all that is needed in order to be in this sport safely.

If one has outfitted himself in such a manner that the ripcord becomes covered or something like that, then that jumper has failed to learn that he must always ensure that the rig's systems remain available and ready for use.

While RSLs have surely saved many lives, it remains that nobody should be saying that they have an RSL because they expect not to find their handle.

Sure, that possibility exists. No question. But to go about one's training and decision making process admitting that they expect such a thing is not the best approach, is it?

[danielcroft 2]

The way I think of it is this: no back up is infallible, relying on it is relying on the percentage chance that it will work this time i.e. it's a gamble and you're gambling with your life.

I was taught 2 hands per handle (the Ranch).
When I had my cutaway (jump 12), I used one hand per handle which I had never been taught and never practiced. I even put in a nice little pause between the two. I practice two hands per handle because that's what I was taught but I think I should practice what came naturally when it happened. Dumb luck saved my handles for me and I had a nice stand up landing on my reserve. I deliberately pulled my reserve because nothing happened i.e. I started accelerating again but no new canopy - as broken as that is - I waited half a second and then decided enough was enough and pulled silver.

I'd love to claim I was all cool, calm and collected. I wasn't, I was swearing my ass off at the canopy that I'd put into a spinning line twist. I checked my altitude (visually), knew I was pretty high up, saw I had 5 - 7 line twists and decided I wasn't going to fix it. Pulled red, waited for a sec (probably half a second) and then pulled silver.

The RSL deployed the reserve but they said I was pretty close, the kink wasn't quite in the right place.

[popsjumper 2]

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Honest answer - if you think about the RSL at all when you are thinking about what EPs to use, you are making a mistake.

ok, I really dont see why I shouldn't....its simple facts. The thing is there it might help. will react the same with or without, will never give up...

anyhow, I would like to know what other experienced people think about this, maybe I'm wrong after all...thanks for the input riggerpaul.

F.

OK..here's one more.
Ditto riggerpaul PLUS...

What he is saying is: RSL/no RSL has no bearing on 1-handed or two handed EPs. The two actions are not related to one another. You will pull both handles regardless.

Not being able to find the reserve handle?
Were you taught to LOOK for the handles before you grabbed them? If not, go back to your local instructor people and find out why not. One should look for what one is reaching for before one reaches and grabs. It's going to confuse you if you grab MLW or jumpsuit instead of handles.

If by some chance things turn out that you cannot find your reserve handle anyway...having an RSL may save you if you get the cutaway handle pulled but it STILL doesn't matter whether you do it using 1-handed or 2-handed EPs.

Riggerpaul is stressing the fact that one should not be worrying about an RSL during your normal handle pulling method. Doing so makes us think that you are depending on the RSL to save you....and that's not good.

And just to be clear, he brings up the 2-out scenario where disconnecting the RSL is recommended....but THAT happens before you start pulling emergency handles. So, again the RSL still has nothing to do with your handle-pulling method.

Hope that helps.


Added note:
From all appearances, I would suggest a thorough review of ALL your emergency procedures. I would suggest using and practicing one method or the other.

It's good that you're asking questions, though. Keep asking, keep listening, keep learning!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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the way I see it: no matter which technique I use, I can either do it right or wrong.

True

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The rsl could help me it case I f--k up.with the other method if I do something wrong I have no backup.

Please clarify your thoughts here.
Which method is the "other one"?

You could get either one of them wrong.

Tell me how you could get it wrong and what the outcome might be using the 1-handed method .

Tell me how you could get it wrong and what the outcome might be using the 2-handed method .

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is that bad resoning? (honestly asking)

Withholding until we get clarification on what your reasoning really is.

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what method do you use?why?

1 handed method. I'm more comfortable with it. I prefer having both handles in my hand before I execute. I use the 2 handed method as backup in case of hard pulls.

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do you have an rsl?why?

Not relevant to this conversation.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Scrumpot 1]

You've "asked" the same question 3x's now - said you were "honestly" asking (implying you were "honestly" seeking feedback) - then, when you get that feedback from an experienced jumper, you instead continue to ARGUE it. You are not really ASKING anything!

Here is your "answer" (again) - now from a different jumper, in some different (but hopefully straight-forward and understandable for you) words:

Having an RSL or not having an RSL in place, installed on your rig - in of itself is of no affect, and should in NO WAY INFLUENCE your decision as to which EP method/procedure (1-hand per handle versus 2) you choose to practice.

There's my feedback for you.
Now, let's (no doubt) hear your point of view argument probably anyway - yet again.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone