Which EP Method is taught at your DZ?

[ladyhawke 0]

At SSM I was taught the one hand method - Arch, Look Red, Grab Red, Look Silver, Grab Silver, Peel, Pull Red, Pull Silver, Arch! And to toss the cables. I do my EP's in my head everytime on the way up to altitude.

"It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities." - A. Dumbledore

[fallfast69 2]

Look and grab right
Look and grab left
Punch right
Punch left
Arch

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Circa 1993/1994 @ the California City Skydive Center where I learned...


Student gear were Telisis rigs with an SOS on the left shoulder, so it went something like, "Look at the yellow handle, grasp the yellow handle with both hands, feet / knees together, pull the yellow handle to full arm extension, strip the cables, toss the handle away and Arch.


Later, when schooled on gear transition to a two-handle system, it was one hand per handle, so it went, look at the cut-away pud (usually red, so it was "look red"), grasp red, look a the reserve D-ring, grasp the reserve D-ring (thumb through the ring), pull red (pull the cut-away pud), pull silver (pull the reserve rip cord), arch.

That's the way I practice it today, and I voted one hand per handle... look at the cut-away, grasp the cut-away with my right hand, look at the reserve D-ring, grasp the reserve D-ring with my left hand, pull the cut-away, pull the reserve... and that's how I remember doing it on my 3 cut-aways & reserve rides to date.




I want to say that for the most part I've seen instructors teach the one hand per handle method, but I have also seen instructors teach the two hands per handle method, first the cut-away, then the reserve, obviously... maybe about an even split between methods.

I too want to say that I've seen instructors teach small folks (i.e. small girls) the two hands per handle method where as they would teach guys (i.e. bigger stonger folk) the one hand per handle method (not a bash on the ladies or any instructors out there, just what I've seen).

[docdialtone 0]

At Skydive San Marcos we were taught
Look red
Grab red (both hands)
Look Silver
Peel red
Pull red
Pull silver

See Vodew I do still remember!!!

[crotalus01 0]

I was taught look grab (right) look grab (left) Peel punch (right) peel punch (left). Thats what I did on my only chop, and it worked for me.

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[jimjumper 25]

It makes no difference! The individual needs to execute the procedures the way they were taught. Trying to make conscious decisions during times of extreme stress usually results in the same reactions they performed the last time they exercised and practiced. We learned from back in the late seventies and early eighties that transitions from main deployment locations and changing reserve procedures was a major fatality cause. (Remeber the phrase "The deceased jumping borrowed gear?)". I have had training in 4 different cutaway systems: (capewells, R-3's, SOS, and Tandem) and have used 3 out of the 4. Not to mention 4 different main deployment locations. Use what you were taught and practice until you can do it in your sleep.

[JohnMitchell 14]

It's amazing how you can switch EPs around depending on the gear you're wearing, I've jumped and used the reserves on the same kind of gear as you. I could go up tomorrow with capewells and a front mount and feel just fine with it.

Practice on the ground. Practice in your head.

[Tonto 1]

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Ten cutaways, one hand per handle, never a problem.

20 cutaways, one hand per handle, never a problem. All DZ's in South Africa teach this way.

Any idea how one would do 2 hands per handle with a Tandem rig? 7 of my cutaways have been on tandems.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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Ten cutaways, one hand per handle, never a problem.

20 cutaways, one hand per handle, never a problem. All DZ's in South Africa teach this way.

Any idea how one would do 2 hands per handle with a Tandem rig? 7 of my cutaways have been on tandems.

t

I know a Tandem Mastet that had to have the student reach up and help him pull the cut-away once... that gets ya 2-hands on the cut-away on a Tandem.

[diablopilot 2]

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Ten cutaways, one hand per handle, never a problem.

20 cutaways, one hand per handle, never a problem. All DZ's in South Africa teach this way.

Any idea how one would do 2 hands per handle with a Tandem rig? 7 of my cutaways have been on tandems.

t

We're talking about training studens here, not an experienced jumper who has the calmness and experience to ensure a pause in procedure to ensure a complete breakaway.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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Quote

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Ten cutaways, one hand per handle, never a problem.

20 cutaways, one hand per handle, never a problem. All DZ's in South Africa teach this way.

Any idea how one would do 2 hands per handle with a Tandem rig? 7 of my cutaways have been on tandems.

t

We're talking about training studens here, not an experienced jumper who has the calmness and experience to ensure a pause in procedure to ensure a complete breakaway.

Hang on there a second DP. I realize I'm cross-threading here, but in the thread in the Incidents froum that spawned this thread, you're all about the "one hand per handle" method being "flawed" and make no distiction between students and experienced jumpers.

I'm sorry, but I gotta call you on this one. I understnad your point, but I also submit you're arguing your point so hard that you're loosing sight of something and begining to argue something for argument sake & and get you word in last.

Whether one uses the one-hand-per-handle or the two-hands-per-handle methods, proper execution is the key.

I submit to you that each method has is pros and cons. Not the only things, but just an example for each...

One-hand-per-handle:
Pro: Jumper has a hand on each handle, cut-away and reserve, before starting EPs, thus, jumper doesn't have to locate reserve handle after cut-away and back in freefall, persumably, at a relatively low altitude.
Con: Potential for jumper to fire reserve after pulling cut-away, but, for what ever reason, main hasn't cleared, say, because the jumper didn't extract the cut-away cables all the way.


Two-hands-per-hadle:
Pro: Starting out with both hads on the cut-away, if for what ever reason, the cut-away is a "hard-pull" the jumper has the strength of both hands/arms to deal with it.
Con: After pulling the cut-away, the jumper, now, back in freefall, has to locate, grasp and pull the reserve... this can be mitigated by the use of an RSL (or now, Skyhook), but do we really need to run down the whole "RSL Debate" here?... I'll pass.


Of course proper student training is a must, duh!


I also submit, that given the results of this poll are showing about a 50/50 split in the use of each method, okay with things leaning towards the two-hands-per-handle method, I'd pose that either is effective when performed properly... again, duh!


Last but not least, an interesting twist on this would be to ask experienced skydivers, "Which method were you trained on and what do you do now?" My point being, I'd venture to guess, that folks who were tained on either method A or B would tend to stick with that method.

[diablopilot 2]

In the other thread I clearly refer to student training.

I personaly use the one hand per handle method for my EP's, however studens in emergency's are rarely prepared of capable of calming them selves enough to do anything other than what they were trained.

The one hand method of student training IS flawed in that it says "pull right, then pull left, it DOES NOT say "pull right, if having trouble pulling right, use left and right hand to pull right, check to ensure the canopy has fully released, then pull left, if having trouble pulling left, use right and left hand to pull left."

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[peckerhead 0]

I did not answer your poll because it depends on the equipment you are using.

As a student I did not cutaway at all because there was no pilot chute on the reserve. We simply opened the reserve container and threw the canopy out into the air....Of course at the time the reserve was mounted in front.

*Open container, reach behind the canopy and in front of the lines. Throw the canopy opposite the direction of spin.

Once I graduated to a rig with a spring loaded pilot chute I was trained to cutaway and pull the reserve. How that was done depended on the rig you were using. It was not uncommon to have different procedures several times each day depending on how many jumps you made or how many rigs you jumped.

But if you really think about it things have not really changed that much if you have a pilot chute in your reserve.

Old days

Cutaway - Pull reserve

New school

Cutaway - pull reserve

How you do it is not that important as long as you have a set procedure that you follow every single time....Have a plan and stick with it.




.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Last but not least, an interesting twist on this would be to ask experienced skydivers, "Which method were you trained on and what do you do now?"

Fine and interesting points you made. Thanks for your thoughts.

My answer to your last question is this: The stuff was all brand new so we trained ourselves using our common sense and experience. I decided one-hand-on-each. It's worked very well in our family and at our DZ. I don't chuck handles for no reason at all.

Tonto, good point on the tandem cutaways. I got a few of those too. All by the book too, nothing dramatic.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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In the other thread I clearly refer to student training.

I personaly use the one hand per handle method for my EP's, however studens in emergency's are rarely prepared of capable of calming them selves enough to do anything other than what they were trained.

The one hand method of student training IS flawed in that it says "pull right, then pull left, it DOES NOT say "pull right, if having trouble pulling right, use left and right hand to pull right, check to ensure the canopy has fully released, then pull left, if having trouble pulling left, use right and left hand to pull left."

I know this would be easier if I just agreed with you...

... but you're talking in two different directions at the same time... again.

So are you saying students should be taught to use two hands per handle... or are you saying if students are trained properly it doesn't matter?

[Tonto 1]

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We're talking about training studens here.

There was a time I was a whuffo, and had no jumps at all.

Then I did a 1st jump course and was a student. I was trained on the reserve drills for front mounted round parachutes with no pilot chute. When I graduated to squares, I was taught the 2 hands per handle method. When I had my 1st malfunction, however, I reverted to what I had been training my students (as per PASA doctrine), which was 1 hand per handle.

Both methods clearly work. It's all in the execution.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Thanatos340 1]

This thread was spun off a Thread in the Incidents Forum when someone said "Two Hand per Handle" was the industry standard and Chicagoland was the only DZ teaching One hand oper handle that that the poster knew of.

I strongly suspected that that statement wasn’t true. From the looks of this poll it is fairly close to 50/50 which would indicate that there is no "Industry standard".

I don’t disagree that two hands may be the better method for FJC Students for many reasons. There is less chance of out of sequence deployment, a greater chance that the student will fully cut away(Punch, Strip) and fewer issues with hard pull. Weigh that against the possibility of not finding the reserve handle using the one hand method.. When on Student rigs there are 2 backups to the reserve handle (RSL and then AAD) neither should be counted on but these are FJC Students and it seems to me that two hands would be the safer method.

What I am hoping to find out in this thread is not so much what you Learned (Many of you learned a long time ago on equipment that is no longer used) but
"What is CURRENTLY being taught at you DZ to FJC Students".

[livendive 8]

I train students to do two-hands-per-handle EPs, as does every other instructor at my dz. I personally do one-hand per handle EPs. I was trained on SOS (two hands), so I later taught myself two-handle EPs and the thought never occurred to me to use two-hands-per-handle. It was like "look...two hands...two handles...coincidence?" Routinely practicing tandem EPs has ingrained the one-hand-per-handle routine.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Andrewwhyte 1]

What I am getting from this thread is that the "two hands per handle" method is much more prevalent than I thought in US but basically non-existent anywhere else.

[Kiki32 1]

I was taught to look red, grab red, look silver, pull red, grab silver, pull silver, arch. (grabbing with both hands)

Poetry don't work on whores.

[newbie2jumping 0]

5 years ago at our DZ I was taught two hands per handle (arch, look red, reach read, look silver, pull red, reach silver, pull silver, arch) This has remained the same the past 5 years with the DZ now adding clear (arch, look red, reach red, look silver, pull red, clear red, reach silver, pull silver, clear silver, arch). In training they said to throw away the handles. After graduating and watching a friend on a borrowed rig throw away the handles (thus having to pay for the handles) I realized if I have the presence of mind to hold the handle I will, but I will not worry about it if it is hanging me up from performing my EP's correctly and quickly.

I like the added clear as Wendy said because it is mechanical...and I have heard a million times if you have "muscle memory" you will do that every time. Try it and you will see it doesn't take ANY additional time to do a mechanical sweep clear after pulling.

As several people have said though, whatever way you practice for your EP's do them that way...don't stop to think about it.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Et all... just in interogative... I never liked the term "grab" when it came to EPs as it somehow sounds somewhat "in haste" or "panicy"... I always prefered the term "grasp" as it seems more "with thought and control", but that's just me... and also because thats the way I was taught, scary, I can almost still hear Celaya telling it to me that way when I did my gear transition...

[stratostar 5]

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After graduating and watching a friend on a borrowed rig throw away the handles (thus having to pay for the handles) I realized if I have the presence of mind to hold the handle I will,

So what your telling us is you place a value of Appx. 120.00 dollars on your life. Now that seems kind of silly to me.

Now before you go off on me and try to feed me some line of bullshit about how your handles can't, won't, couldn't, cause any problems, there is a new friend of mine who has been around many many years in the sport and he is not doing well, this wise old timer has been heard to say "think up everything that can't go wrong, and it probably will, once!" That would be Al Frisby and what I have learned from guys like him is, never say never, just because it hasn't happend to you or your buddys YET, don't mean it won't happen!"

Point being why have the handles in your hand and the cables flop'n in the breeze in close proxmity to your head/back where your reserve (last chance) is deploying from and risk an entanglement.

Sure I know plenty of people who lived from doing it, but I've seen some pretty weird shit too in my time in the sport, I think I toss my handles when the shit hits the fan, we have been training this for years, WHY, because more then one person lost their life over a 40.00 dollar handle.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[faulknerwn 36]

I've also seen stories/videos where student ripcords (as well as tandem ripcords) got thrown and caused malfunctions of the main as it was deploying. Throwing handles is about as likely to cause issues as keeping them. You're taking your chances either way.

[popsjumper 2]

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Et all... just in interogative... I never liked the term "grab" when it came to EPs as it somehow sounds somewhat "in haste" or "panicy"... I always prefered the term "grasp" as it seems more "with thought and control", ...

Sounds good to me, too.
Probably even better than "reach".

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239