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frontloop33

New gear

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Hi!

i'm very close to my license and now I'm looking for a new gear.

First, it seems almost impossible to find a decent complete system with a 170sqft or 190 sqft main in Germany. Nothing available or, if you are lucky to find one, its way to expensive.

Second option: Renting a system: Also way to expensive - in my opinion: About 25$ per jump (!)

Third option: Buy a new rig:
I think I have to do so.

So, a new rig is quite expensive and therefore it should last long. Durability is no problem, but the size of the main canopy.

Say, I start with a 170 sqft canopy. I can downsize to 150 and maybe 135 sqft and still use the same container/reserve, right?
Only few selected canopys smaller than 135 will fit, right?

So: How is flying a 135 sqft canopy? I have no idea, if I'll be happy with that or if I want do use a smaller one some time in the future.
Only thing I'm very sure about is, that I won't do swooping. I prefer freeflying and after enough jumps, I want to try a wingsuit.

My questions are:
1. How fast/agile is a 135 sqft canopy? (Maybe compared to a car where a 170sqft canopy is something like a Ford Focus or a Chevy Impala - strange comparison, i know ;) )

2. Using the same container with a 170 or 135 sqft canopy is no problem, is it?

3. Is there anything that contradicts freeflying and wingsuit-flying with the same container?

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First, how much do you weigh out the door? secondly, depending on the canopy and fabric, a 190 7-cell can pack about the same size as a 170 9-cell.

I bought a V348 and put a 190 storm in it and can go down to a 150 in the same container.

My 190 is VERY AGILE in my opinion compared to anything else I've jumped. Its fun and safe for my experience level so I'm fine with it. I wouldn't want to downsize for a long while and I honestly want at least a D-license before even considering a high-performance canopy (150 and below). Downsizing too fast can get you hurt badly. And I know people who did over 1000 jumps on a 1-1 WL.

By the time your ready to downsize to a 150 or 135 it'll probably be time to look for a new rig anyway. But thats just my opinion.

**EDIT- Oh and in reference to your car comparison... If a student rig is a truck then to me my 190 is a porsche and a 135 would be a car with so much horsepower it'd get me killed unless I was a professional driver. Jump what is SAFE for you now and have fun with it. I know the first time I drove a fast car it was fast to me until years later I drove something faster. At your level a 1-1 on a sporty canopy will be plenty agile IMO.

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The car analogy falls down in that it is possible to drive any car slowly. A canopy needs a minimum airspeed to keep flying and generally the smaller the canopy the higher that minimum speed.
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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Hi!

i'm very close to my license and now I'm looking for a new gear.

First, it seems almost impossible to find a decent complete system with a 170sqft or 190 sqft main in Germany. Nothing available or, if you are lucky to find one, its way to expensive.

Second option: Renting a system: Also way to expensive - in my opinion: About 25$ per jump (!)

Third option: Buy a new rig:
I think I have to do so.

So, a new rig is quite expensive and therefore it should last long. Durability is no problem, but the size of the main canopy.

Say, I start with a 170 sqft canopy. I can downsize to 150 and maybe 135 sqft and still use the same container/reserve, right?
Only few selected canopys smaller than 135 will fit, right?

So: How is flying a 135 sqft canopy? I have no idea, if I'll be happy with that or if I want do use a smaller one some time in the future.
Only thing I'm very sure about is, that I won't do swooping. I prefer freeflying and after enough jumps, I want to try a wingsuit.

My questions are:
1. How fast/agile is a 135 sqft canopy? (Maybe compared to a car where a 170sqft canopy is something like a Ford Focus or a Chevy Impala - strange comparison, i know ;) )

2. Using the same container with a 170 or 135 sqft canopy is no problem, is it?

3. Is there anything that contradicts freeflying and wingsuit-flying with the same container?



There's four likely candidates for you right here in the classifieds section. They're all on the first page, & reasonably priced. Do they charge you some type of import tariff in Germany? Personally, I think you should rent for awhile longer. Choosing the wrong canopy could cost you more, later. What do your instructors say? They know how well you fly. They will be the best judges of what size canopy to look at. Forget about a 135.

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The part I'm having trouble with is we've got a new jumper who's already obsessed with this whole idea of "downsizing." As these newbies go through their training and become acclimated to DZ culture, how many highly experienced jumpers do they see who fly larger canopies? Are these people as much a part of the scenery as the high-test swoopers? Or are they regarded as the occasional oddity?

Nobody who visits a DZ to make that first jump is thinking, as they arrive at manifest & fill out the paperwork, "Gee, I wonder how many jumps I'd need to fly something smaller?" At some point this kind of thinking takes hold. When new jumpers are led to believe that downsizing is an inevitable, normal part of the sport, it follows that some of these people will place inordinate emphasis on learning to fly smaller stuff, and many get pretty well banged up in the process.

Just wondering.

Cheers,
Jon S.

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Hi!

well, importing a gear from the United States (or somewhere else) is not that easy.

I have to pay about 25 % import tax, which makes importing not really cheap.
Other thing is, I have no chance to try the gear first - just put it on to see if it fits and so.
Sending it back if it doesn't fit is not really an option.


Well, downsizing:
I know, that I can't downsize fast or soon.
If a buy a new container now I want to use it as long as possible (including the cypres and the reserve).
I'm pretty sure I won't go to 135 sqft in the next 5 - 7 years. (maybe 10 years, maybe never).

I don't think its very clever to buy a new gear now and have to sell it in a couple of years because the new canopy won't fit.

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Hi!

well, importing a gear from the United States (or somewhere else) is not that easy.

I have to pay about 25 % import tax, which makes importing not really cheap.
Other thing is, I have no chance to try the gear first - just put it on to see if it fits and so.
Sending it back if it doesn't fit is not really an option.


Well, downsizing:
I know, that I can't downsize fast or soon.
If a buy a new container now I want to use it as long as possible (including the cypres and the reserve).
I'm pretty sure I won't go to 135 sqft in the next 5 - 7 years. (maybe 10 years, maybe never).

I don't think its very clever to buy a new gear now and have to sell it in a couple of years because the new canopy won't fit.



It's...your future. I see...a plane ride to a Florida-based manufacturer in the next year or two.

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It's...your future. I see...a plane ride to a Florida-based manufacturer in the next year or two.



But I'll definitely not buy a new gear there!
'Cause even with a dollar-euro exchange rate of 1,40:1 a complete new gear is about 400 $ more expensive as if I buy it here (tax, shipping and so included).

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I'm curious. A lot of pix I see here of European skydiving show American made equipment. Is there a German manufacturer? If not? How do they justify a 25% import tariff? Is it just in case a German company goes into business some day? If you buy new from a German dealer (of American equipment)? Do you still have to pay the tariff? What if you buy it here, & carry it back on the plane?

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the german states is almost bankrupt, so they charge import-taxes and VAT on anything that could even be remotely new and untaxed. so even if he carries it over and doesnt have the paperwork, he'll get busted.

paratec is a fine designer of skydiving equipment, making anything from rigs to canopies and even helmets.

to the OP. forget it, i bought everything abroad and saved something like 2000.- euros..
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

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the german states is almost bankrupt, so they charge import-taxes and VAT on anything that could even be remotely new and untaxed. so even if he carries it over and doesnt have the paperwork, he'll get busted.

paratec is a fine designer of skydiving equipment, making anything from rigs to canopies and even helmets.

to the OP. forget it, i bought everything abroad and saved something like 2000.- euros..



Really? I thought Germany was an economic center for Europe. I'm sorry to hear that.

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the german states is almost bankrupt, so they charge import-taxes and VAT on anything that could even be remotely new and untaxed. so even if he carries it over and doesnt have the paperwork, he'll get busted.

paratec is a fine designer of skydiving equipment, making anything from rigs to canopies and even helmets.

to the OP. forget it, i bought everything abroad and saved something like 2000.- euros..



Really? I thought Germany was an economic center for Europe. I'm sorry to hear that.


it is and you should feel sorry for us swiss; they're swarming over here like there was no tomorrow.. :S
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

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Well, buying US-Gear in Germany is ok.

For example:
I buy these parts in the US (just a random online-store - no names!):

Icarus Safire2: 1905 $
Icarus Reserve: 1280 $
Icon Sport: 2200 $
Cypres2: 1475 $

Total: 6860 $ which is 4900 € (at 1.4$ = 1€). To that I have to add 4.7% import tax (+230 €). To that subtotal (4900 + 230 €) = 5130 € I have to add 19% sales tax. So my total selfimport price is 6105 €.

If I buy everything at a german store I have to pay 5848 €.
Thats a lot more than the US price, but less as if I import the gear.

--
Well, Teuge is not very close - i live in Bavaria.
--

One of my questions is still unanswered:

3. Is there anything that contradicts freeflying and wingsuit-flying with the same container?

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Well, buying US-Gear in Germany is ok.

For example:
I buy these parts in the US (just a random online-store - no names!):

Icarus Safire2: 1905 $
Icarus Reserve: 1280 $
Icon Sport: 2200 $
Cypres2: 1475 $

Total: 6860 $ which is 4900 € (at 1.4$ = 1€). To that I have to add 4.7% import tax (+230 €). To that subtotal (4900 + 230 €) = 5130 € I have to add 19% sales tax. So my total selfimport price is 6105 €.

If I buy everything at a german store I have to pay 5848 €.
Thats a lot more than the US price, but less as if I import the gear.

--
Well, Teuge is not very close - i live in Bavaria.
--

One of my questions is still unanswered:

3. Is there anything that contradicts freeflying and wingsuit-flying with the same container?



Maybe im just reading this wrong but your self import price is 6105 eruos and your price to buy in germany is 5848 euros. am i the only one who doesnt see what the dilemma is here?

if you're going to buy new it's obviously cheaper to buy in germany. So why not buy in germany?
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, all used up, and loudly proclaiming: Wow, what a ride!

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I looked around the 'Net a little bit. Even w/package deals. You're going to pay $1,000USD more than here. Ah Well. It is what it is, right? You could save a thousand by switching to another perfectly good container brand.

FWIW, this Newbie isn't going to downsize so drastically, ever. My body's too battered, & I've nothing to prove. I'm going to stay w/large canopies. You'll need a larger, smooth-opening canopy for wingsuits. Free Flying might not be as much fun w/a bigger backpack on you. Dunno, I've no experience w/that. Good Luck. I hope you find something.

P.S.: Come on. Cypres is made in Germany. We pay about $1450 over here for one. What do they go for there, about 20 Euros? Don't lie. A friend of mine grew up in the Middle East. He said everyone is poor, but they all drive new Mercedes. They're cheap over there.

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Maybe im just reading this wrong but your self import price is 6105 eruos and your price to buy in germany is 5848 euros. am i the only one who doesnt see what the dilemma is here?

if you're going to buy new it's obviously cheaper to buy in germany. So why not buy in germany?



You're reading this wrong. I never said I want to self import.
PiLFy started this by naming the classifieds.
This would be an option, if I had the chance to see that gear first....

Than he added his vision about me flying to Florida. There I said, I will not buy a rig there cause its too expensive.

Than he wanted to know why there are so many Europeans using US-manufactured gear. So I explained.

But I thing this topic is over now.

It's NOT cheap and easy to import a gear. It's way cheaper to buy it here

So any other opinion about freeflying and wingsuit flying with the same gear?

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Well, buying US-Gear in Germany is ok.

For example:
I buy these parts in the US (just a random online-store - no names!):

Icarus Safire2: 1905 $
Icarus Reserve: 1280 $
Icon Sport: 2200 $
Cypres2: 1475 $

Total: 6860 $ which is 4900 € (at 1.4$ = 1€). To that I have to add 4.7% import tax (+230 €). To that subtotal (4900 + 230 €) = 5130 € I have to add 19% sales tax. So my total selfimport price is 6105 €.



Even without VAT, German and French gear is often more expensive than buying american gear in USA...

I've heard that some people buy the gear in the US and asks a buddy to take it home for them in their luggage... For some reason the buddy often forgets to tell the customs about the new gear and sometimes the buddy even get the impression that it is his own used gear that doesn't get any VAT added if questioned by the customs... It can even make a Spanish Icarus canopy become cheaper than buying it in Spain.

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Maybe im just reading this wrong but your self import price is 6105 eruos and your price to buy in germany is 5848 euros. am i the only one who doesnt see what the dilemma is here?

if you're going to buy new it's obviously cheaper to buy in germany. So why not buy in germany?



You're reading this wrong. I never said I want to self import.
PiLFy started this by naming the classifieds.
This would be an option, if I had the chance to see that gear first....

Than he added his vision about me flying to Florida. There I said, I will not buy a rig there cause its too expensive.

Than he wanted to know why there are so many Europeans using US-manufactured gear. So I explained.

But I thing this topic is over now.

It's NOT cheap and easy to import a gear. It's way cheaper to buy it here

So any other opinion about freeflying and wingsuit flying with the same gear?


Oh, here we go... Blame it on the bald guy:o.

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hi,

Quote

So any other opinion about freeflying and wingsuit flying with the same gear?


for the answer look up into wingsuit section. I use to have the same gear for all jumps, but now I have two sets of gear for FF/FS and WS jumps mainly due to the canopy size and harness fit differences.

In terms of the gear choice...

I'm from Europe and I've had the same problem at the beginning. jumping in Ireland where the market is tiny was even more difficult to get a decent beginner gear. So I bought my first system online in ..... Germany. Omega M with 170 Cayenne incl AAD and Smart reserve for just above E 3300. I have put in the container 170 and 150 (Sabre 2) w/o problem (system AFAIK is max for 190 so the 150 was quite loose with the shortest loop). My impression is that the European brands don't keep the value as much as the US made stuff (mostly due to marketing reason) and they are as good as any others. So sometimes is good to buy the non US canopy for example (no choice than European stuff in terms of AAD though ;-)
I agree that if you don't have any close friends travelling to US who would bring the gear for you, it is difficult to get cheaper gear, specially brand new. The point is that everything (including second hand gear) will be taxed if coming from outside the EU (European Union) at approx 25% of the declared value or the invoice. That's the reason why most of the European jumpers buying outside EU are asking the sellers to lower the declared value, which sometimes for lack of understanding by the sellers, is taken as cheating on US customs/government (which obviously is not a case). Thankfully there in the US are also some reasonable ppl who don't have any problem with declaring lower value (including some shops as well).
You can always make a deal/agreement with the seller that if the gear is not up to your expectations or doesn't fit properly will be sent back and the money will be returned. I bought 3/4 rigs online without any issues (well, major issues).
More than likely if you buy a container for 170 9 cell ZP the 135 9 cell ZP might be too loose. If you buy a container for 150 the 170 would be very difficult to pack (unless 7 cell or hybrid) and 135 will be fine.

Have you looked up on UK, French, Dutch, German and other forums for the 2nd hand offers? I can pm you some links if you wish. I agree with plenty of experienced jumpers to buy as the first gear second-hand system and spend the money on jumps.

I also agree with one opinion above that in some time soon (lets say within 2 years) you will be seating in a plane to Florida for some skydiving tour, which would be a great opportunity for shopping around.

Europe is a bloody expensive place to live and jump ;-)

regards
j.
Back to Poland... back home.

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