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matthewcline

Staff Drug Testing as a Condition of Employment.

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I wouldn't say it should be the plan, but mentioned, yes.

And to those who are trying to say it s a bad idea, like it has been, mentioned drug testing for employment is common place now.

So I ask:
Why would we as an Industry want to "avoid" drug testing?

Many DZ's say they are the safest or better than the other DZ nearby. Wouldn't this be part of safety?

Don't you send instructors off to brush their teeth when they smell like a brewery? how about when they smell like they got baked in Spicoli's van?

It is about the perception of a Professional Skydiving Center. How can one look like a Professional Business if it puts on the facade of a counter culture environment?

Skydiving is no longer out of the public eye. WE need to keep up with where we have taken our selves.

Matt



Well, I've been against testing without cause for a long long time now. I've never had to take one.

As far as accepting it as commonplace, well, you can chip away at rights a little at a time, and people will hardly notice. But one day, they realize that their rights are gone.

So, how much of this testing actually reveals anything?

Mandatory testing is, to me, very much admitting that everybody would be a drug fiend if the opportunity presented itself, but we keep it in check by testing.

If your employee smells a brewery or like he just got baked, FIRE HIM!

If you don't have people who look stoned, they probably aren't. Testing didn't do that, good people did that.

And if the same guy gets baked on his days off, what's it to you?

If he demonstrates and impairment, FIRE HIM. If not, leave him alone.

Matt, go have a couple of poppy seed bagels and have your test.

Report back here to tell us how it feels when it shows up positive.

(Yes, it really does happen.)

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I wouldn't say it should be the plan, but mentioned, yes.

And to those who are trying to say it s a bad idea, like it has been, mentioned drug testing for employment is common place now.

So I ask:
Why would we as an Industry want to "avoid" drug testing?

Many DZ's say they are the safest or better than the other DZ nearby. Wouldn't this be part of safety?

Don't you send instructors off to brush their teeth when they smell like a brewery? how about when they smell like they got baked in Spicoli's van?

It is about the perception of a Professional Skydiving Center. How can one look like a Professional Business if it puts on the facade of a counter culture environment?

Skydiving is no longer out of the public eye. WE need to keep up with where we have taken our selves.

Matt



Well, I've been against testing without cause for a long long time now. I've never had to take one.

As far as accepting it as commonplace, well, you can chip away at rights a little at a time, and people will hardly notice. But one day, they realize that their rights are gone.

So, how much of this testing actually reveals anything?

Mandatory testing is, to me, very much admitting that everybody would be a drug fiend if the opportunity presented itself, but we keep it in check by testing.

If your employee smells a brewery or like he just got baked, FIRE HIM!

If you don't have people who look stoned, they probably aren't. Testing didn't do that, good people did that.

And if the same guy gets baked on his days off, what's it to you?

If he demonstrates and impairment, FIRE HIM. If not, leave him alone.

Matt, go have a couple of poppy seed bagels and have your test.

Report back here to tell us how it feels when it shows up positive.

(Yes, it really does happen.)



Yes, I know the poppy seed deal, saw it in the Army at the UADC Course before Mythbusters did their show.

I agree off time should be your time. BUT right now these are ILLEGAL drugs we are talking about.

I see no down side for thew business owner, only the casual user who now has to go find a new job. but that is there choice.

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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>I see no down side for thew business owner

Higher labor costs, resulting in less competitive pricing.

If their product is much more desirable because of that drug testing, then that may be sufficient to make it worthwhile. However, if people shop on price alone, the lower cost DZ will win - making it a bad decision for a business owner.

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I know of a number of non-skydiving companies that stopped testing due to cost. Even those that received an insurance discount for testing found the cost of the testing outweighed the discounts and wasn't worth the administrative costs associated with it.
They made the comment that they trusted their employees given the years of service.

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Not all DZ's do this, but a few do.

I personally think it is a great thing for the DZ to use in its marketing campaign and not a bad thing to keep every one safe.

Any other opinions out there?

Matt



Drug testing is a means by which government forces universal compliance with what in essence is a state religion -- the random prohibition of certain plants and their byproducts to achieve political and religious ends.

Thus any individual or business that supports and/or uses drug testing aids and abets the continuing attack on and destruction of the U.S. Constitution.

As a great American statesman once said, he who would trade essential liberty for (alleged) temporary safety deserves neither, and it is psychotic to support the "right" of government to root through our body wastes in order to assure compliance with its dogma because said support simply hastens that day when there will indeed be neither liberty nor safety -- for anyone.



B|
SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

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Drug testing is a means by which government forces universal compliance with what in essence is a state religion -- the random prohibition of certain plants and their byproducts to achieve political and religious ends.

Thus any individual or business that supports and/or uses drug testing aids and abets the continuing attack on and destruction of the U.S. Constitution.

As a great American statesman once said, he who would trade essential liberty for (alleged) temporary safety deserves neither, and it is psychotic to support the "right" of government to root through our body wastes in order to assure compliance with its dogma because said support simply hastens that day when there will indeed be neither liberty nor safety -- for anyone.



what he said

sc here we come!
"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."

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We are not talking about a Government entity, but a private employer and their rights to hire who they feel most comfortable working with.

Don't want to take the drug test as a condition of employment, don't apply. Simple really.

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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Are you talking about a real DOT testing program with chain of custody or are you talking about one of those over the counter home testing kits?

If you want the use the little bust your high school kid over the counter kits, then fuck off. If your talking about a real DOT testing program, well then the DZO is first in line and lets see the results.

I think the dz's that put that stupid shit on their websites is retarded and only adds to the over all view of the "type" of people in the sport... as well as mostly it's only aimed to bust pot smokers and not those who use XTC & Coke, meth & H regulary as well as abuse booze, in fact I can think of a few people who are now working @ your home dz who eat XTC like it's going out of style. Both of those leave a users system in hours or a day's times.

So maybe you could test everyone on Sunday morning after your big boogies and get a true view on who dose what & when.

I also know a lot of people who smoke weed after working all day and retire to bed, where as there is the drinkers who party all night and then get up a few hours later (8 hrs my ass) and start taking tandems and other students up still stinking of booze and glass eyed, clearly hung over. I would much rather hire and work the ones who bust ass all day and then burn one after dinner and go to bed to wake up fresh shit showered and shaved ready to work, then I would those who drink to excess every weekend and operate on a few hours sleep.

I also find it funny that some of the biggest coke heads I know are DZO's who have drug testing for their staff and are reading the test results in their office while doing lines.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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I have no problem taking a drug test under any circumstances; however, I'm not sure they provide much value other than to say you haven't committed an illegal act (possession), which in and of itself is a good thing.

I'm not sold that they have value from a safety standpoint. I don't think that a positive test result for marijuana that was consumed at an unknown point in the past (30 days?) has more value than some way of determining whether someone has a chronic alcohol abuse problem (which I feel is a far greater danger). I have a huge problem with anyone jumping under the influence of anything (legal or illegal), but a drug test isn't going to show impairment, and you're not testing for legal substances that can cause impairment. I just don't see much value from a safety standpoint.

As far as a marketing scheme, I think it carries an implied message to the general public that skydivers are a bunch of stoners. If you're saying "we're drug free" you're implying others aren't. Personally, I'd rather differentiate my dropzone through other avenues, but, I can't say that this type of marketing is out of bounds.

You asked for opinions:)
Edited to add: I should have read Statostar's post above, first, and saved my energy. Good post.


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right now these are ILLEGAL drugs we are talking about.



That's a completely different issue than your first post. Your first post was about safety. The legal status of a substance is irrelevant to safety; it's only relevant to whether your employee is willing to break the law. You're more than entitled to fire them for their willingness to break the law; however, I don't think the issue should be framed as one of safety when legal substances are just as dangerous.


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I don't see any problem if the DZO wants to do it.

I also do not see a real benefit from a marketing perspective. The only possible benefit (IMO) is in the case of a lawsuit and your focus on safety..... and that is a bit of a stretch.

I also don't mind taking a drug test. I have been in jobs that require drug tests since I was 18. And I have had to take a drug test when I was sponsored by Eloy, and while working at Skydive City.

So I would not care... but I don't see a big marketing angle.

For those that claim that taking a drug test is an "expected" part of a job.... Lot of folks see Pot use as "expected" as well. Hell, it seems everyone does it.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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I asked for opinions and am getting them.

Some seem to have this as a "hot button" issue.

This was not a post asking about any person or DZ. It was to ask about and get opinions on.

I should have been clearer as to legal and illegal drugs.

AS for safety. I was of the mind set that a person would not do any thing that could be in their system and cost them their job. Thus increasing the chance they would be "sober". Thus increasing the chances of them making good decisions.

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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>I was of the mind set that a person would not do any thing that could be in
>their system and cost them their job. Thus increasing the chance they would be
>"sober". Thus increasing the chances of them making good decisions.

Well, you could make the same argument about requiring green socks. "If we require green socks, then smart people will decide to wear green socks to keep their jobs - and thus requiring green socks on all instructors will give us instructors who make better decisions." Not sure if that works.

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>I was of the mind set that a person would not do any thing that could be in
>their system and cost them their job. Thus increasing the chance they would be
>"sober". Thus increasing the chances of them making good decisions.

Well, you could make the same argument about requiring green socks. "If we require green socks, then smart people will decide to wear green socks to keep their jobs - and thus requiring green socks on all instructors will give us instructors who make better decisions." Not sure if that works.



Sure it could work if Green socks caused one to be impaired like Alcohol or (pick a drug).

It is the DZO's business. If any of us don't want to get tested we work some where else.

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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My general rule is that I'm very opposed to drug testing in the workplace. (In a nutshell, I agree with Rigger Paul's opinions.)

The exception is jobs whose performance is closely related to, or impacts, safety. Skydiving TM or instructor would be among the exceptions.

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>Sure it could work if Green socks caused one to be impaired like Alcohol or (pick a drug).

Well, you seemed to be making a distinction between safety issues and having an "obedient mind set" that would indicate they are good decision makers.

If anyone shows up actually drunk, no argument at all. They are in fact a safety hazard.

If someone shows up sober, but with blood factors indicating they had been drunk 3 days ago, that's very different. You could fire them because you don't like drunks, or because you are advertising "teetotaling instructors" or whatever - but it's no longer a safety issue. Likewise if someone shows up who smoked pot three days ago. Again, the DZO could fire them because of an image he wants to uphold or whatever, but it has gone from a safety concern to an image one.

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Then the tests need to be "eight hour" tests. Follow the Bottle to Throttle rules.

Again this was for opinions.

I am of the Opinion the Owner can do it if it is a requirement for employment. If a potential employee doesn't like it, apply some where else.

Those who are taking this personal, it is not my problem, I dis not ask this with any knowledge of you in my mind.

Those who are trying to make this a "Government is trying to control me" argument that was not my intent either.

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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Not all DZ's do this, but a few do.

I personally think it is a great thing for the DZ to use in its marketing campaign and not a bad thing to keep every one safe.

Any other opinions out there?

Matt



Drug testing is technically illegitimate, statistically irrelevant, constitutionally dangerous, and Exhibit A for the affirmative that if you tell a big enough lie long enough, people will actually believe it.

B|
SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

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As soon as it's a requirement to get your welfare check.



I am all for that as well. Along with required alcohol and drug counseling.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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I also am stuck in other 'professional' stereotypes.

good breath
haircut
shaved
polite
no smoking in front of/around students

how incredibly close minded, huh?

crazy concept when you are trying to get mainstream business in field where trust is pretty important - it's not about what I, or any other jumper, personally thinks, it's about what the customers will take in so they come and spend their money

be clean and professional, enjoy the experience with the customer and make it fun, take your cues from the customer as to what they are enjoying and being annoyed by, be relaxed, be informative. It's ok for them to see we cut it up after the light goes on just as much as it's good to see we are fun but professional while working

I'm still surprised at the number of 'skydiving professionals' that act like their business/employment is all about them and not about the customer.



If you and Matt start Team Close-Minded, can I be Tail? :P

There are some that think it's OK to be a slob and call themselves "professionals." Glad it's not that way around here.

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Then the tests need to be "eight hour" tests. Follow the Bottle to Throttle rules.

Again this was for opinions.

I am of the Opinion the Owner can do it if it is a requirement for employment. If a potential employee doesn't like it, apply some where else.

Those who are taking this personal, it is not my problem, I dis not ask this with any knowledge of you in my mind.

Those who are trying to make this a "Government is trying to control me" argument that was not my intent either.

Matt



I am not aware of any such "8 hour" tests. Are you?

Sure, you can do what you want. But, there's another factor that you might want to consider.

If you force a person who smokes some weed in a manner that would not affect job performance, to stop smoking that weed, there is bound to be some resentment. Maybe you'll know it, maybe you won't. But that person is a ticking bomb for you and your business. It would not surprise me at all that such a person would arrange a poppy-seed-positive just to have the opportunity to sue you to the poor house.

So, are there really "8 hour" tests?

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