How to TOTALLY screw the pooch on Level 1:

[labrys 0]

There is nothing "new schooll" AFF about anything I saw there. Criticize all you want but modern AFFI training still includes instruction on the best way to deal with that situation. At least the training I had did

And I am in no way saying that instructor did anything wrong because I have no idea what stresses or torque he was trying to deal with.

I'm just saying that its a tad SC to try to characterize all AFFI training like you did.

Owned by Remi #?

[turtlespeed 212]

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its a tad SC

Speakers Corner?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[NickDG 23]

Kev, find another DZ, you got robbed!

Floating Otter exits are less than optimum for early AFF dives (1-3.) Door exits (where you drag it out onto the hill) are much easier and successful (for you!) The Mainside JM should have let go of you much sooner. A rodeo like that is totally 1980s AFF!

Both JMs riding through your deployment is what gave you the dead slow bag lift. If I was scoring this, like I did for twenty years of being an AFF evaluator, I'd give Reserve Side a 2 (for releasing at the right time) and then staying with the dive (he lost a point for the ride through, though) But Mainside get's a big fat frigging zero!

I won't even mention the chance you might have panic pulled and wrapped your bridle around Mainside's GoPro that was hanging out there like a big Matzo Ball!

Is this the end result of the new AFF certification program?

NickD

[ufk22 32]

yeah, I kept reading further and further through this thread thinking, am I missing something by thinking "That ain't right", don't mean the student, mean the M/S I, then see people suggesting buying them beer??????
Kevin, your title about screwing the pooch is correct, but you aren't the one who screwed up.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[pchapman 261]

Any other tips Nick?

It's easy to criticize, but looks like mainside might have been trying to flip the student by rolling himself early on, when it might be better to ball up to drop down below the student and then pop up the other side, level and upright. Who knows what was happening, but for a while on their back, mainside seemed to be trying to counter the turn with his legs but the tilt of the student just kept everything turning. The spin tended to stretch mainside out too, making whatever he was trying harder to do.

I guess you are pointing out that even if one doesn't want to let go, at some point if the plans aren't working to recover the student, letting the student go free still makes sense?

Or, maybe mainside could have let the shoulder grip go, keeping the hip grip, 1/2 roll, then try to do what I know as an 'inverted recovery', grabbing the student to half roll him (tho' he's a solid guy). The spin complicates everything but might have eased if the mainside could try a different body position.

Just working through some of the options on this dive, since I'm new to the AFFI type game...

[popsjumper 2]

So how many points would I have lost on R-side.

I was rooting for the reserve side to stick his ass in there and stop the spin instead of being so timid. That's what I would have done/tried...but then I'm far from being any sort of expert.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

I LOVE your attitude! Wish we had more like that!

That was awesome!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[chuckakers 369]

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its a tad SC

Speakers Corner?

Actually this is all quite relevant to general skydiving. In fact, it's a discussion long overdue.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[piisfish 135]

like it has been said, you got stable very short after your instructor released you
and my... how many linetwists ???

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[chuckakers 369]

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And I am in no way saying that instructor did anything wrong because I have no idea what stresses or torque he was trying to deal with.

You are way behind. The point was and is that it's ludicrous to hang on to an inverted spinning student for 30 seconds doing nothing but getting closer to killing the guy.

What you apparently don't realize is that the instructor was a big contributor to the spin and hanging on doing nothing is about as non-instructor as you can get.

The second instructor was holding excellent proximity and could have easily made a dock, which he did after the clingy instructor finally got thrown off.

For 30 solid seconds, that instructor did NOTHING! That's not poor technique. That's temperol distortion. Had that skydive been an eval, he would have zero'd half way through that mess.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[KevinP 0]

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like it has been said, you got stable very short after your instructor released you
and my... how many linetwists ???

Yeah. When I felt him release, I did what I thought was accentuate my arch, which in reality was actually finally arch. Flipped me right over. Haha And the line twists only took two good kicks to get out. While about 23 years ago, I have kicked out of lots of riser/line twists.

I woke up this morning with a huge grin on my face. I'm ready to do it again, even after reading "getting closer to killing the guy." Thank God my wife doesn't read this forum.

Sincerely,
Kevin

[ufk22 32]

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Any other tips Nick?

It's easy to criticize, but looks like mainside might have been trying to flip the student by rolling himself early on, when it might be better to ball up to drop down below the student and then pop up the other side, level and upright. Who knows what was happening, but for a while on their back, mainside seemed to be trying to counter the turn with his legs but the tilt of the student just kept everything turning. The spin tended to stretch mainside out too, making whatever he was trying harder to do.

I guess you are pointing out that even if one doesn't want to let go, at some point if the plans aren't working to recover the student, letting the student go free still makes sense?

Or, maybe mainside could have let the shoulder grip go, keeping the hip grip, 1/2 roll, then try to do what I know as an 'inverted recovery', grabbing the student to half roll him (tho' he's a solid guy). The spin complicates everything but might have eased if the mainside could try a different body position.

Just working through some of the options on this dive, since I'm new to the AFFI type game...

Just went through AFF 6 months ago, so I'm not a pro at this but my take on what was wrong..
1. exit. I've seen plenty of experienced "Cessna" jumpers that couldn't pull an exit like this off an otter. For a 1st jump student it would be really tough, especially since neither Instructor has a "high" grip on the student on the exit. Plus, looks like the reserve side might have been a little late on exit.
2. As soon as the reserve-side releases, the main should have dropped the high grip, rolled over/grip switched, dug a knee while agressively driving forward to stop the spin, then rolled the student over.
That or let go. The main-side seemed to contributing to the spin, not stopping it.
Just my take on this. Any thoughts from more experienced AFF-I's?

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[peregrinerose 0]

As an AFF I, the only truly major thing that I saw that you did wrong was not pull. Didn't look like you had any altitude awareness either. Remember what you're supposed to do if you find yourself with no instructor in freefall? Even once the instructors re-docked, you did not look at the alti that I could see, and the instructor pulled for you.

Body position can be taught, that's not a biggie, but loss of basic awareness and not pulling... that's vital.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Heatmiser 0]

I saw two looks at his alti, He was staring at it when they deployed him.

What you say is reflective of your knowledge...HOW ya say it is reflective of your experience. Airtwardo

Someone's going to be spanked! Hopefully, it will be me. Skymama

[peregrinerose 0]

Facing it and actually seeing it are entirely different entities

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[PiLFy 0]

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Facing it and actually seeing it are entirely different entities

He was looking at it, watching the numbers roll down. They didn't give him the pull signal. One instructor just yanked it. Maybe that's why the other instructor didn't let go before (causing large burble)?

I don't think the OP has said what altitude he was supposed to pull @. Did the instructor pull early to end it?

[PiLFy 0]

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like it has been said, you got stable very short after your instructor released you
and my... how many linetwists ???

Yeah. When I felt him release, I did what I thought was accentuate my arch, which in reality was actually finally arch. Flipped me right over. Haha And the line twists only took two good kicks to get out. While about 23 years ago, I have kicked out of lots of riser/line twists.

I woke up this morning with a huge grin on my face. I'm ready to do it again, even after reading "getting closer to killing the guy." Thank God my wife doesn't read this forum.

Hey Kevin,
What altitude were you supposed to pull @? What altitude did the instructor toss your chute w/o signaling you? Did he pop it early?

[ufk22 32]

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As an AFF I, the only truly major thing that I saw that you did wrong was not pull. Didn't look like you had any altitude awareness either. Remember what you're supposed to do if you find yourself with no instructor in freefall? Even once the instructors re-docked, you did not look at the alti that I could see, and the instructor pulled for you.

Body position can be taught, that's not a biggie, but loss of basic awareness and not pulling... that's vital.

After the ride he was given, I'm surprised he remembered to look. After that much spinning, then the crash-docks by his "instructors" which seemed to create a lot more instability, then no hand signals, just pull while sticking around creating a burble plus the reserve-sides left hand on the main web at deployment right next to his handle. If he had followed the rules and pulled once on his belly after being released from the spin the M-S (at least original M-S) would have eaten the PC as he skipped over the top of him.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[monkycndo 0]

From the video, it looks like they were way north. Maybe the AFFI wanted to pop the main to give the student(and them) a fighting chance to make it back. Still looks like they landed out.

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[hookitt 0]

That video is making its rounds.

You did fine. Your exit wasn't perfect but what happened next was completely induced by the main side instructor. It was not you. He was out of position right off the step. Woops, but shit happens. He could have still saved it but did a very classic mistake.

Once the reserve side let go, the main side instructor still had a chance. He needed to right himself by turning over onto his own belly. Instead, he tried to flip you over (feet over head) and that was the cause of the spin. Take a look, he flung you several times.

He had one or 2 more chances to right himself. If he had turned over, he could countered the spin pretty quickly and turned you over. You were already arched enough for an easy harness flip. (Reach over you, grab the opposite main lift web and roll you. Poof, back in action, ... heading altimeter, arch reach, touch... and so on.

Well, Once he screwed himself and started spinning, there was nothing he could do to fix it. As hard as it is to release a student, he should have gave up a LOT sooner and let go.

The moment he let you go, you flipped right over. You were in no better position then, than you were earlier in the dive. It was simply easier to arch since you weren't tracking circles around your instructor.

The instructors were schooled on that jump. It should be shown to new instructors as a training aid.

Don't be too harsh on the instructor. I bet they just learned something the hard way.

There's more to it, but I don't have time right now for a step by step.

Good luck on your next jump!

I'd still work with either one of them but we'd go over a few things before the next AFF Jump

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[KevinP 0]

Okay, as best as I can remember:

1:40 - MS Instructor releases and I roll over.

1:44 - I check the altimeter. I was just under 6,500. At that point, I distinctly remember thinking that we were still a few seconds above pull altitude of 5,500. I also remembered that, with no instructor, I was supposed to pull regardless of altitude, but the First Jump Course instructor also said that, if we are above 5,500 and without an instructor, there was nothing wrong with waiting until that altitude to pull. I felt if I were to ride out until 5,500, maybe my attitude in the air would settle down and I would have a cleaner opening. As this thought is completing, I feel contact from an instructor.

1:45 - I feel contact from an instructor and make the determination that they are both on me to get me situated and stable.

1:50 - I see that I'm approaching 5,500, but now, I'm being rocked by the two docking, so I just submitted to it.

1:58 - I am watching the alti for 5,500 and was about to wave off when I felt the container open.

2:00 - I glance at MS in an attempt to acknowledge that he had deployed my canopy.

So, all that being said, he probably deployed it right at, or maybe slightly below the prescribed 5,500.

Contrary to what seems reasonable, I was lucid, alert and very much in tuned to what was going on. Again, I accept total responsibility for the train wreck that was happening between 13K and ~6K. I was prepared to initiate the deployment sequence, BUT I appreciate the instructors doing what they thought was best. There was no way they could assess my frame of mind. Many would probably be freaking out and may not pull on time, if at all. While I won't say that I credit them with anything as dramatic as saving my life, I will say that, in my inexperienced mind, they did their job. I have read quite a bit to the contrary here, but that is for you AFF I folks to debate. I'm going back, hopefully with the same trio (instructors and camera) so that WE can execute that jump the way it was rehearsed on the ground.

Sincerely,
Kevin

[labrys 0]

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You are way behind. The point was and is that it's ludicrous to hang on to an inverted spinning student for 30 seconds doing nothing but getting closer to killing the guy.

What you apparently don't realize is that the instructor was a big contributor to the spin and hanging on doing nothing is about as non-instructor as you can get.

Chuck, I intended 2 things when I said that. The first was to abstain from public criticism of the instructors because I'm not qualified to judge an AFF jump.

That doesn't mean that I'm behind or that I don't have a personal opinion or an understanding of how I was taught to handle being on my back with a student. It isn't what was happening in that video.

I took (and in case you're wondering, failed) a "new school" AFF course and practiced that problem many times. I was taught to release the high grip to get myself back on my belly, then roll the student, just as someone else mentioned in this thread. It worked well for me throughout the course. I failed for other reasons.

So, the second thing I intended when I responded to you was to challenge the idea that "new school" AFF training was the problem.

I don't know when those guys were trained or who trained them or whether they were trained differently or what else was going on. I'm willing to bet that there are bad "old school" examples and good "new school" examples. One of the guys I took my course with kept insisting on trying to roll over with the student as a piece like that and subsequently pissing off the I/E who was teaching us.

FWIW, I failed for releasing my grip on the reserve side too soon after the main deployed on one jump, and for coming back in to dock too aggressively at pull time when I was on main side on another jump. Nothing spectacularly crappy, but enough to hold me back.

I don't feel like I got kid gloves or extra warm fuzzy treatment in the new school course I took.

Owned by Remi #?

[Bodhisattva420 0]

That was badass! You definitely got your money's worth out of that skydive.

[KevinP 0]

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That was badass! You definitely got your money's worth out of that skydive.

Thanks Bro.

My wife just got my USPA membership packet in the mail and was talking about the sticker. She said it was too bad that they didn't have one of a jumper breakdancing on the way down. ROLF

Sincerely,
Kevin

[popsjumper 2]

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So how many points would I have lost on R-side.

I was rooting for the reserve side to stick his ass in there and stop the spin instead of being so timid. That's what I would have done/tried...but then I'm far from being any sort of expert.

Anyone? No comments for me?

FWIW, No difference spinning on back or belly. You can't just hang on forever and let it go on and on and on....you gotta do something.

To MS's credit though...he WAS trying. It just took a long time to figure out that he wasn't getting it done.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239