0
ridestrong

Do you think small format cameras are generally safe or unsafe???

Recommended Posts

Quote


[:/]
Note that the briefing description says nothing about distractions, while in the previous breath, it indicates cameras are a distraction:S



Even more interesting to me is that "everyone" felt the main concern was distraction, not snag hazards - but "everyone" thought they should lower the jump number requirement because cameras have gotten smaller.
"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

We'll just have to agree to disagree on being able to 'not think about the camera' during the jump.


I am well aware of my equipment, and the camera is part of my equipment



Lets see BillV has 5500 jumps AFF rating, Tandem rating (Expired) , has jumped a camera, has had an issue already.

You have 260 jumps and have already had a camera issue.

Of the two.... Which do YOU think knows more about skydiving?

Lets not forget that you 'created' a malfunction procedure that no one ever suggested.

Quote

I was wearing a GoPro during the jump and after seeing the mal (and being a spinning mal) I decided to unclip my chin strap to avoid having a reserve snag on the camera.



Why is it so hard to grasp that others have more knowledge/skill/experience that you?

I hope you never have a close call, but since you are ignoring everyone who has had one.... You seem to be the type that will only learn from his own experience.... I just hope it does not kill you.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

We'll just have to agree to disagree on being able to 'not think about the camera' during the jump.


I am well aware of my equipment, and the camera is part of my equipment



Lets see BillV has 5500 jumps AFF rating, Tandem rating (Expired) , has jumped a camera, has had an issue already.

You have 260 jumps and have already had a camera issue.

Of the two.... Which do YOU think knows more about skydiving?

Lets not forget that you 'created' a malfunction procedure that no one ever suggested.

Quote

I was wearing a GoPro during the jump and after seeing the mal (and being a spinning mal) I decided to unclip my chin strap to avoid having a reserve snag on the camera.



Why is it so hard to grasp that others have more knowledge/skill/experience that you?

I hope you never have a close call, but since you are ignoring everyone who has had one.... You seem to be the type that will only learn from his own experience.... I just hope it does not kill you.




Bill definitely has more skydiving knowledge, skill, and experience than I do. As for mental focus and 'forgetting about the camera', I think that is more a psychological issue.


You keep saying I ignore everyone... but that is simply not true.


Let me ask you something Ron... During an actual skydive how many times do you actually think about your main canopy in free fall, how many times do you think about your reserve handle?


Let me ask you another question... if you had a student who could not perform a dive flow because they continuously looked at their altimeter every 2 seconds what would you tell them?
*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Bill definitely has more skydiving knowledge, skill, and experience than I do. As for mental focus and 'forgetting about the camera', I think that is more a psychological issue.



And stress in a given situation is also a psychological issue. A person with more experience and more knowledge normally handles stress better than a person with less experience and knowledge.

Lets not forget that you 'imagined' an emergency procedure for dealing with a camera helmet that NO ONE ever suggested.... Unless you can show me where someone told you to unclip your helmet before you cutaway from a spinning mal.......

Quote


You keep saying I ignore everyone... but that is simply not true.



Really???? What does the SIM say about number of jumps before jumping a camera.... and how many jumps did you have before you started jumping a camera?

Quote

Let me ask you something Ron... During an actual skydive how many times do you actually think about your main canopy in free fall, how many times do you think about your reserve handle?



To be fair, I have over 5k jumps. To put that into perspective, I have 18.8 times the skydiving exp that you do.

When I jump a test rig, test main... Etc, I think about them a BUNCH. When I jump a new main, I think about it a BUNCH. If I were going to do an intentional cutaway, I'd think about the reserve a BUNCH.

But, ask me about how often I think about a camera when I make a camera jump?..... I have maybe 200 camera jumps in those 5k jumps.

I almost bounced when I had 200-300 jumps jumping a camera.

Quote

Let me ask you another question... if you had a student who could not perform a dive flow because they continuously looked at their altimeter every 2 seconds what would you tell them?



Great altitude awareness!!!!!! And since I want them checking every 3-5 seconds they are close to perfect. But that they still need to do the dive flow.

Now, let me ask you a question.


The SIM, most jumpers with tons more EXP than you all are telling you that a camera is a distraction and that the distraction will sneak up on you....

What makes you think THEY are all wrong, and you are correct?

Ever had a close call yet?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

We'll just have to agree to disagree on being able to 'not think about the camera' during the jump.


I am well aware of my equipment, and the camera is part of my equipment



Lets see BillV has 5500 jumps AFF rating, Tandem rating (Expired) , has jumped a camera, has had an issue already.

You have 260 jumps and have already had a camera issue.

Of the two.... Which do YOU think knows more about skydiving?

Lets not forget that you 'created' a malfunction procedure that no one ever suggested.

Quote

I was wearing a GoPro during the jump and after seeing the mal (and being a spinning mal) I decided to unclip my chin strap to avoid having a reserve snag on the camera.



Why is it so hard to grasp that others have more knowledge/skill/experience that you?

I hope you never have a close call, but since you are ignoring everyone who has had one.... You seem to be the type that will only learn from his own experience.... I just hope it does not kill you.



Every one of my low deployments has been camera-related.
One of my two malfunctions are camera-related.
One of the best-known camera people in the skydiving world was killed with thousands of jumps and his own camera distraction. Norman Kent has a few scary camera-distraction stories.
I'd suggest that there are easily 100,000 jumps of experience saying "it's not a good idea."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote


Safety course, great idea. Again, want to change the rules, do something about it. Otherwise, the horse is dead, no need to keep beating it.




I just wrote this email to the Director of Safety and Training at the USPA:

Dear Mr. -------,

I am writing you to propose developing a USPA regulated 'video safety'
course for jumpers that wish to begin jumping with cameras. Any jumper,
after passing the course could then obtain a rating. Or perhaps, as water
training is required for a 'B' license, similarly video training could be
required for a 'C' license. Currently there does not appear to be any
required knowledge before jumping with a camera. Where as many are against
further regulation, I feel this would be a step in making our sport safer
for everyone in the sky with camera flyers. Thank you for your time and
consideration.

Sincerely,

Joshua Anderson
#232118

-----



Joshua,

The next USPA Board of Directors meeting is in July in Denver Colorado, which is in your neighborhood. Please take time out of your budding film career and bring your concerns directly to the Board.

The Board of Directors would love to hear from the younger members (not necessarily age, but in membership/jump years) on how we have lost touch with the advances in video technology, do not understand the higher intelligence of new generation of jumpers, and that USPA is wrongfully holding back skilled skydivers.

Please, the Safety and Training Committee did not ever consider jumpers when they made this rule, just their won selfish agendas. The Board members who voted for this rule were probably not paying attention and did not realize what they were doing, just looking to hurry through the vote and get on to the meeting in the bar.

Seriously now....

Drive on down to the Board meeting and join in. You will find a group of skydivers very concerned about the well-being of the membership, the skydiving community as a whole, and of the organization. The SnT committee wrangled this rule for hours to balance safety, skills, and fun for the jumpers involved. The full Board also debated over the issue and studied it, and came to the same conclusion as well. Some minimum jump number is necessary.

While the Camera Safety Course is a great idea, you left a few questions unanswered. First, what is the minimum number of jumps necessary to take the course? Who is qualified to teach such a course? How do we go about training the trainers? What is the cost to the jumper for the additional rating that they achieve? How do we grandfather that to existing camera jumpers? Lastly, how do we enforce someone jumping a camera without a rating?

As you can see, there is a lot that has to go into writing up new rules, and I haven't even scratched the surface on the number of things that the SnT committee or the full Board would come up with. I'm not saying you have a bad idea, just complicated, like many of the issues face by the Board.

Come to the meeting, voice your concerns (the Board will listen to intelligent, well thought out discussion), and become part of the process.

Blue skies!
Craig Stapleton,
Pacific Regional Director
Jump more, post less!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If nothing else, in spite of your attitude, you do manage to consistantly prove that the disclaimer at the bottom of your posts is the truth.....
have you read it lately?????
To the original issue, 200 jumps is not just something pulled out of the air. For most jumpers, somewhere around 200 jumps is the point where you can go up, fly your slot, and start to acurately remember what actually went on during the dive. It's the time when you can fly reflexivly rather than having to spend most of the dive thinking about how to do your job. No matter what you think, the very nature of anyone who gets into this sport is to try to get better at anything they try.
Go up, shoot some video, look at it after, realize I missed something. Next time, I'll try to do better, even if I don't conciously make that decision.
It's our nature.
Unfortunately, thinking that "I'm smarter, better, etc than most others in this sport" is also our nature.

Listen and learn, get lucky, or end up a greasy spot.
This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

discussion is not a one way street, but we have hit the low road that goes to a dead end.... :S:S

This entire thread has been turned into being ALL about me and not the subject matter at hand... it's sad really, but I can't expect any better here at dz.com. I'll discuss this all day with people like DSE, and BillV, but there are to many of you that can't stay on topic. If you just want to insult and scold me send me a PM. If you want to continue discussion give it a try. :|

For those of you that think I'm looking for your approval or justification... your dead wrong. If you could read and comprehend what I've written in this post you'd see that I'm actually looking to make jumping with a camera safer and if anything I'd like to see more education available to those thinking about jumping with a camera.

If you want to discuss that, great. If you want to continue with the petty little insults and bs accusations then go down the street to your closest grade school and have a back and forth with someone of a similar mentality. :|

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


For those of you that think I'm looking for your approval or justification... your dead wrong. If you could read and comprehend what I've written in this post you'd see that I'm actually looking to make jumping with a camera safer and if anything I'd like to see more education available to those thinking about jumping with a camera.



The educational resources are there. Most people simply won't avail themselves to it.
I have a course I teach here at Elsinore, my company produced Norman Kent's first set of DVDs and are working on the second set. Norman has one on one and group training camps, so do other 'name' photographers.
I sincerely doubt the USPA will do anything in this direction, simply because the bulk of the USPA takes the ridiculous, stupid, insipid (how many other insulting words can I find) shortsighted, ignorant, arrogant, head-in-sand view that "we shouldn't be considering training for experienced skydivers."
I've heard many members of the board utter this pithy pissy response on several occasions.
Gee whiz...if we DID have advanced training, we actually might increase the retention levels past 300 jumps...

Back to topic...small cameras are generally safe (assuming they don't fall off). The people that use them are generally not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


The educational resources are there. Most people simply won't avail themselves to it.
I have a course I teach here at Elsinore, my company produced Norman Kent's first set of DVDs and are working on the second set. Norman has one on one and group training camps, so do other 'name' photographers.



That is great that there are resources out there... I attended a camera course a few months ago along with other informational/safety courses during a tunnel boogie we had here and thought it was great.

Obviously you can't force people to attend or seek out this information. But, for those that are against making it mandatory in training or certification, you can't really bitch about the ones that don't get the training available. You just can't have it both ways.
*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

But, for those that are against making it mandatory in training or certification, you can't really bitch about the ones that don't get the training available. You just can't have it both ways.



Well..."mandatory" would mean more rules. More rules simply means people will go to greater lengths to hide that they're breaking rules. *Most* DZs enforce recommendations. In at least three instances, DZ's ignored the recommendations for wingsuits (for example) and this led to three very preventable fatalities. In one case, the "instructor" was told that the deceased shouldn't be wingsuiting, and deceased had been turned down by other wingsuit coaches.
While there is now a BSR, I'm aware of at least 3 instances where an "instructor" has taken wingsuits earlier than the mandated 200 jumps.

You yourself ignored very strong recommendations both from USPA and from this community. Would a rule have stopped you?
I'd submit no.
The resources have always been there. I'd submit it's too much "hassle" for most people that want to wear a camera. They're lazy, don't give a shit about what more experienced people have to say, they are too inexperienced to understand that their perspectives are generally flawed, history means nothing to them because they are "different" and they come from an "I deserve it now" generation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The SIM, most jumpers with tons more EXP than you all are telling you that a camera is a distraction and that the distraction will sneak up on you....

What makes you think THEY are all wrong, and you are correct?

Ever had a close call yet?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

The SIM, most jumpers with tons more EXP than you all are telling you that a camera is a distraction and that the distraction will sneak up on you....

What makes you think THEY are all wrong, and you are correct?



It's not about 'right and wrong', that's just the way you see it.

Quote

Ever had a close call yet?



I had the cutaway... but other than that I have not had what I would consider a true close call. I imagine every jumper in the sport long enough will experience some 'close calls' regardless of using a camera or not.
*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

It's not about 'right and wrong', that's just the way you see it



Nonsense, you are claiming that the SIM and everyone that does not agree with your views is not correct.

How is that you not seeing others as wrong?

Quote

I had the cutaway... but other than that I have not had what I would consider a true close call. I imagine every jumper in the sport long enough will experience some 'close calls' regardless of using a camera or not.



And who told you your procedure to remove your helmet before cutting away a mal was the correct method?

And don't you think a person who has made mistakes is better able to identify them?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Josh,

You seem to thrive on getting people stirred up.

Here is my two cents on the issue. I personally don't buy the old school argument that a modern camera is distracting in freefall. By the quality of the average go-pro camera shot, I am thoroughly convinced the skydiver not only does not have the skill to frame up a nice camera shot - nor are they trying to. Instead, we get to see minutes of nothing with a spec of a human every few seconds between glances to altis.:o

But in all seriousness, I don't think the modern go-pro mentality is causing a lot of risk in freefall.

Here is what I think are the two biggest risks:

1) Snag hazard. I have never seen such poorly designed snag hazards as the average pendant go-pro mount. When I first flew a camera, I got a helmet that completely enclosed the camera and tested the camera helmet by rubbing dental floss all over it making sure there were no snag hazards. I had 250 jumps at the time I knew I needed to start with a camera that had no snag hazard. Try that test with a go-pro! FAIL. I would personally not jump over half of the mounts I have seen! (If nothing else, I am sick of depressed skydivers walking around the DZ complaining about the go-pro that "fell off" in the door or in freefall. At least they break off and hit the ground.:$)


2) The modern go-pro type camera is VERY distracting in the door. Cameras 5 years ago had a cam-eye that would tell you if the camera was on, and turning it on was as easy. The new go-pro camera style has no viewfinder and a very poor method of telling the user if it is recording. I saw a bunch of 200 jump (I think less actually) guys in the door of the Otter last fall trying to get their cameras to record. The yellow light came on, then the green. Instead of doing a gear check (touching handles/check of threes) - they were struggling to ask their friend, "is this thing recording?" Then they jumped out without spotting.


So in recap. To me, the two biggest problems with these small cameras:

1) HUGE snag hazard
2) Turning it on to record is not easy, no cam-eye, and is distracting in the door.

Free-fall issues, well I am not overly concerned at this point. Yes, I support 200 jumps, but someone with 100 jumps I don't think is dead-man-walking with a go-pro IF the two issues above are addressed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

You seem to thrive on getting people stirred up.



Seems to just come naturally... :DB|B|

Quote

1) HUGE snag hazard
2) Turning it on to record is not easy, no cam-eye, and is distracting in the door.




That's one of the reasons why I prefer the Contour because there's no question about turning it on.. As for the snag hazard tho it's probably only slightly better if at all, as a bare mounted camera that is. So far the Drift camera mounts are the worst I've seen of the small format cameras... There is a new camera 'the Epic' which is about 1/4th the size of the Drift and looks like it could have some good mounting possibilities. I saw someone at the dz loose their mini Epic HD camera out the door last week... it was mounted with that dual lock but there wasn't enough surface area for a strong hold. It was his 1st jump with that camera I believe.
*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
>Yes, I support 200 jumps, but someone with 100 jumps I don't think is
>dead-man-walking with a go-pro IF the two issues above are addressed.

I think this is the inevitable "creep" in recommendations caused by eager newer jumpers to do what they want when they want.

Take wingsuits. Original recommendation was 500 jumps for someone who was extremely heads-up, could track well etc.

But what about the REALLY exceptional people who had excellent training? Well, perhaps if you gave them intensive training, evaluated them, and then went on the jump with them so you could demonstrate the exit (for example) they'd be OK. It's not for everyone, but some people could probably handle it.

A few years pass.

Now the standard everyone remembers is 200 jumps. Sure, newer jumpers should wait until 200 jumps before wingsuiting, because that's the experience you need to do it safely. But what about the REALLY exceptional people who had excellent training? Why can't they do it at 100 jumps? They don't need to wait to 200 jumps like the average jumper.

And so it goes. In wingsuiting, we've seen the results of people pushing the limits. We're starting to see the results of newbie videographers pushing the limits. I hope we don't start seeing more fatalities from it, but from the attitude I've seen here and at the DZ, I suspect we will.

200 jumps is an ABSOLUTE MINIMUM for someone who is heads-up, who has addressed the above issues, who is exceptionally aware etc. As Spot's list has illustrated, even at 200 jumps people screw themselves both by making the mistakes you list and by making the more standard "figured I'd get video of X" (or a similar issue.) Even the original poster has made such a mistake, but cannot recognize it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

But what about the REALLY exceptional people who had excellent training? Well, perhaps if you gave them intensive training, evaluated them, and then went on the jump with them so you could demonstrate the exit (for example) they'd be OK. It's not for everyone, but some people could probably handle it.

A few years pass.

Now the standard everyone remembers is 200 jumps. Sure, newer jumpers should wait until 200 jumps before wingsuiting, because that's the experience you need to do it safely. But what about the REALLY exceptional people who had excellent training? Why can't they do it at 100 jumps? They don't need to wait to 200 jumps like the average jumper.

And so it goes. In wingsuiting, we've seen the results of people pushing the limits. We're starting to see the results of newbie videographers pushing the limits. I hope we don't start seeing more fatalities from it, but from the attitude I've seen here and at the DZ, I suspect we will.

200 jumps is an ABSOLUTE MINIMUM for someone who is heads-up, who has addressed the above issues, who is exceptionally aware etc. As Spot's list has illustrated, even at 200 jumps people screw themselves both by making the mistakes you list and by making the more standard "figured I'd get video of X" (or a similar issue.) Even the original poster has made such a mistake, but cannot recognize it.



Bill ... excellent post. You used wingsuits as an example, but I like the classic downsizing argument. Same result ... we now have less experienced people jumping high performance canopies who have no business under such wings.

Back to the topic:
I know this was said earlier, but if someone thinks they can or should just 'turn it on and forget it', they're a bad camera-flyer and an unsafe skydiver.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I think this is the inevitable "creep" in recommendations caused by eager newer jumpers to do what they want when they want.

Take wingsuits. Original recommendation was 500 jumps for someone who was extremely heads-up, could track well etc.



And (before my time) I understand you had to have a chunk of jumps before you were allowed to use one of those square parachutes. Creep is normal with changes in technology.

I don't mind the creep of 500 jumps to 200 jumps for certain types of camera work as cameras have gone from huge heavy camcorders (film or VHS) to mini-cameras with memory cards that are small and light weight. With proper safe mounting, they could provide no more snag hazard than any other helmet. Most fail this snag test now, but they could. By certain type of camera work, I am not implying tandem video with stills and video. I am implying "set it and forget it" type jumps, or even video for a RW 4 way team if the skydiver is proficient (trained in the tunnel or sky). I am also not thinking still cameras as the act of taking photos requires action in freefall.

Regarding wingsuits, I also don't mind (some of) the creep there either. When wingsuits were first invented, they were not well understood. They have gotten now to the point that (almost) every known risk has been identified and training can be done to mitigate those risks. So, this creep, unlike the cameras which is rooted in changes in technology, is instead rooted in understanding the equipment, in the same way we now recommend square parachutes for first time jumpers where the old initial recommendation was that jumpers needed experience before using a square.

Where does this creep stop?

I can't imagine technology that will allow wingsuits to creep much past the current accepted protocol of 200 (current) jumps.

But cameras... Look at cell phone cameras. We have technology right now that could allow a camera to be built into a protec helmet without any extra devices mounted on the outside. Wireless video is here. Heck, in 20 years we might equip the AFF instructor and the student with video cameras with sky-to-ground communication. A 4th AFF instructor could be sitting in a room watching all three cameras and announcing verbal commands to the student in a speaker in their ear, "Arch my friend", "Dude, you have line twists, remember what you were taught and start kicking!", "Legs OUT", "You are going to overshoot the landing area, turn to the right". I am not saying I think this technology will be useful or even smart, but technology is allowing cameras to be used in ways we never have before (cell phones are now skype equipped, mobile video conferencing is here).

I suspect the creep in cameras will continue...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I suspect the creep in cameras will continue...


Quote



I think you're right tdog, years ago someone wearing a camera was an oddity, they were bigger, heavier and required a lot more 'general skills' in regard to setting up and flying properly.

With these relatively new, cheap & small format cameras, the set it and forget it mentality of the AAD and audible altimeters is just carried over into one more arena.

Personally I like the 200 jump recommendation currently being quoted, but yeah I do see that coming down as even smaller, lighter, more user friendly units are available.

Is there a need for a camera course requirement?
I think the limited resources could be better used in other areas...like when 70% of the annual fatalities are under open canopies ~ that is a more pressing issue.

I see a lot of these small cameras in use at my DZ, often by people that don't yet fully understand the implications of the added link in the chain of disaster...'odds' are they'll survive, and until we see a rash of camera caused fatalities this trend will continue.

I submit that as this will 'IMO' continue with even greater numbers, those with the experience regarding associated problems should focus more on perhaps developing systems these newer users can utilize, that lower the odds of more obvious dangers...of course the divided attention will be hard to address but the snag hazard might be a good starting point.

There are literally dozens of off the shelf, purpose built camera helmets and hardware available that we see experience vidiots using, that are designed and built to address the associated safely issues.

I think it would be far simpler to, at least short term...recommend certain restrictions aimed at the snag potential and QR chinstraps...ie: when using a freefall camera, a snag reducing cover/mounting system and a cut-away chin strap must be incorporated ...to jump at the DZ.

...there IS an added danger, granted debatable in size, adding extra hardware. Working toward lowing the amount of safety being compromised is something we need to consider.

In the demo jumping arena, there are certain aspects of utilizing additional equipment that have been worked out and are pretty much observed by most all participants...because if for no other reason, they make sense from a safety standpoint and are available.




Some of these tourists I see walking to the plane look like they set up grappling hooks on their head... in HOPE of snagging a a few lines! :S











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 great posts from you guys....

I know that a lot of people are passionate about an increased introduction of cameras in the sport and the people jumping them with lower jump numbers.

The truth is... this is not going to change and the influx of cameras will continue to increase in the sport. We should try to recognise this and address it appropriately. I don't have the best answer to dealing with it, but I also don't think that just telling people 'you shouldn't do that' is the best answer. The best action is likely education, and while there are some resources out there it lacks to say the least.
*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0