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ridestrong

Do you think small format cameras are generally safe or unsafe???

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How many jumps do you think are made each month with small format cameras across the world...? thousands, tens of thousands? After re-reading the Small Format Camera "Incident" list I don't see one single "skydiving" incident that resulted in anything more than minor injuries. Yes, there was the BASE death, which is very unfortunate, however BASE presents a separate set of safety issues and should be discussed in a separate form.

While I don't think that jumping with ANY camera should be taken lightly, I can't help to think that some threads become too focused on small format cameras regardless of incident or not.

If we look at the statistics... it appears as tho in hundreds of thousands of jumps with small format cameras in "skydiving" there has not yet been one single serious incident linked to them, this includes experienced and new jumpers alike. I'm not advocating we change any rules or anything else, just asking the question. Can't we say once and for all that they are indeed, "generally safe"?


JUMPERS SHOULD BE AWARE THAT DESPITE THE POLL RESULTS, JUMPING WITH CAMERAS DOES ADD ANOTHER FACTOR TO THE DIVE... SIM RECOMMENDATIONS SHOULD BE FOLLOWED.
*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

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I can't help to think that some threads become too focused on small format cameras regardless of incident or not.



It has little to do with the camera itself. This has been stated many times.

It is the additional mental task load and mindset that goes with jumping the camera.

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BASE presents a separate set of safety issues and should be discussed in a separate form



Not when the issue (snag hazard) is applicable.

The issue is people think that since the camera is small that it is not a big deal. But the mental load and distraction is the SAME no matter the size of the camera.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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How many jumps do you think are made each month with small format cameras across the world...? thousands, tens of thousands? After re-reading the Small Format Camera "Incident" list I don't see one single "skydiving" incident that resulted in anything more than minor injuries. Yes, there was the BASE death, which is very unfortunate, however BASE presents a separate set of safety issues and should be discussed in a separate form.

While I don't think that jumping with ANY camera should be taken lightly, I can't help to think that some threads become too focused on small format cameras regardless of incident or not.

If we look at the statistics... it appears as tho in hundreds of thousands of jumps with small format cameras in "skydiving" there has not yet been one single serious incident linked to them, this includes experienced and new jumpers alike. I'm not advocating we change any rules or anything else, just asking the question. Can't we say once and for all that they are indeed, "generally safe"?


JUMPERS SHOULD BE AWARE THAT DESPITE THE POLL RESULTS, JUMPING WITH CAMERAS DOES ADD ANOTHER FACTOR TO THE DIVE... SIM RECOMMENDATIONS SHOULD BE FOLLOWED.



Only an idjit can't recognize that a camera adds additional tasks and distractions.
Check out this guy. I'll bet he wishes he hadn't been messing with a camera...
"hundreds of thousands and no incidents?"
You meant "fatalities," right?

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But then you will still always get the same arguments that they will just turn it on and forget about it, so what mental load?



Just because they argue that does not make it true..... Just like the guy with 100 jumps that claims he will only land his velo 90 straight in and never turn low....
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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I don't disagree with you but there are still no significant injuries reported regarding either snag hazard or distraction. If the BASE incident was (instead) skydiving the outcome would likely have been different... with more time/altitude to deploy after snag cleared, the potential use of AAD, reserve, etc.... However, I do not wish to discuss the BASE incident in this thread.
*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

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How many jumps do you think are made each month with small format cameras across the world...? thousands, tens of thousands? After re-reading the Small Format Camera "Incident" list I don't see one single "skydiving" incident that resulted in anything more than minor injuries. Yes, there was the BASE death, which is very unfortunate, however BASE presents a separate set of safety issues and should be discussed in a separate form.

While I don't think that jumping with ANY camera should be taken lightly, I can't help to think that some threads become too focused on small format cameras regardless of incident or not.

If we look at the statistics... it appears as tho in hundreds of thousands of jumps with small format cameras in "skydiving" there has not yet been one single serious incident linked to them, this includes experienced and new jumpers alike. I'm not advocating we change any rules or anything else, just asking the question. Can't we say once and for all that they are indeed, "generally safe"?


JUMPERS SHOULD BE AWARE THAT DESPITE THE POLL RESULTS, JUMPING WITH CAMERAS DOES ADD ANOTHER FACTOR TO THE DIVE... SIM RECOMMENDATIONS SHOULD BE FOLLOWED.



Only an idjit can't recognize that a camera adds additional tasks and distractions.
Check out this guy. I'll bet he wishes he hadn't been messing with a camera...
"hundreds of thousands and no incidents?"
You meant "fatalities," right?




Yeah I saw that skiing video on FB...

Yes... I mean fatalities or any other significant injury, but I don't even see as much as a broken bone attributed directly to wearing a camera.

I didn't start this thread to argue my opinion, just stating what the statistics seem to show. And, looking to see if the general consensus is 'safe or unsafe'.
*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

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This again? B|

If you spent as much time skydiving as you do worrying and posting about Go-Pro and jump numbers, you'd have the numbers and experience that would make this a moot point. . . for you.

I'll be glad when you tire of this particular topic - or at least keep it in the P&V forum. :S

.02

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

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I don't disagree with you but there are still no significant injuries reported regarding either snag hazard or distraction.



You do disagree since you keep trying to prove otherwise.

Until you realize that it is not the damn camera itself that is the issue but the MINDSET AND DISTRACTION that is the major issue..... There is no point in discussing this ad nauseam every few weeks.

There is not a rash of AFF students dying under Velos.... But that does not mean it is a good idea.

You seem to continually ignore the personal accounts that DSE has collected in the video forum...
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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If the BASE incident was (instead) skydiving the outcome would likely have been different...



Possibly, maybe, maybe not. The highest snag hazard risk presents itself at pull time, when you are at or near the basement. Typically in skydiving you have a LOT more speed at this point than in base. The scariest sky video i ever saw was the one of the guy getting his bridle snagged on his chin cup and fighting to clear it until his AAD fired, then he had time to make one turn and land. Had he had no AAD he would prob be dead. That video made me wait an extra 100 jumps to jump camera.

With that being said I am not anti small format and have one myself. I have only ever used it on BASE jumps though. My opinion is use the right tool for the right job, but no matter what that is ANYTIME you add something you are increasing the risk. I had a close call at the NRG this year because i was distracted, on my back filming jumpers above me with my Sony. The cameras in the LZ show me opening up around 50 ft above the river, which was below the tops of many of the trees.

edit for poor grammer
"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

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Yeah I saw that skiing video on FB...

Yes... I mean fatalities or any other significant injury, but I don't even see as much as a broken bone attributed directly to wearing a camera.

I didn't start this thread to argue my opinion, just stating what the statistics seem to show. And, looking to see if the general consensus is 'safe or unsafe'.



You missed the point, just as you've conveniently missed it for the last 266 jumps. At some point, conveniently missing the point will likely catch up to you.
The skiiing video shows a guy messing with a camera and losing track of his highly hazardous surroundings. In other words, the camera is a distraction. There are similar incidents in several sports activities. Skydiving is not "special." Distractions are distractions regardless of what box you put them in

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just stating what the statistics seem to show



What statistics?

That's the thing, there are no statistics. There is no reliable method for recording injuries in skydiving, only fatalities. Many, many injuries go unreported, and therefore would never appear in any statictics you might be using, calling into question the validity of those statistics.

Beyond that, what about minor injuries? Even if you assume that word 'gets around' about major injures, is it OK to allow things that could incur a minor inury?

None of this is even mentioning the close calls. Ever heard the phrase, 'No shit, there I was...'? What that means is that jumper had a close call, but by virtue of being there to tell the story, survived the incident. Should we allow something that might contribute to close calls? A close call goes from being close to a jumper ending up with a closed head injury and being a lightly functioning retard for the rest of their lives very quickly.

We don't have statistics, or formulas, or even hard facts to go on, what we have is the collective wisdom of those that have come before us, and those that are currently knee-deep in the trenches. I'm amazed by the volumes of information newbies take as the law of the land and never question once, and then the issues that they do take umbridge with, while all of it came from the same source. Good enough to teach you to skydive, and get you this far, but not good enough to recognize that what this jackass thinks is safe should just be left alone because that's what he wants.

Sure pal, whatever you say. What else can you teach me? Can I learn to dance with a video game too?

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The skiiing video shows a guy messing with a camera and losing track of his highly hazardous surroundings.



Yeah Douglas - but you gotta admit that those peeps looked REALLY COOL, and without the camera there, there's absolutely no way they would have been anywhere even near as COOL. Period. It needs to therefore be argued FOR in absolutely every instance, and every opportunity possible - and for any sport / high-risk activity. I mean... why even bother doing the activity at all in the 1st place, if you can't capture it on your really cool (and totally safe - stop saying it's not! >:() small-format camera. :S

You just don't get it, and are trying to hold the newest, most totally cool generation back is all.

Cut it out.

[/sarcasm mode]

Carry on.
coitus non circum - Moab Stone

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I'm amazed by the volumes of information newbies take as the law of the land and never question once, and then the issues that they do take umbridge with, while all of it came from the same source.



I had a Tony Hathaway walk up to me once while I was talking WL with a new jumper..... The jumper had ZERO interest in paying attention to anything I had to say about the subject....

When the new jumper left, Tony looked at me and said something along the lines of, "Funny thing is that if you were to offer a suggestion on how to freefall better.... that guy, and ones like him, would listen to every word you say. But as soon as you talk canopy they ignore you." (To be fair... I do have a ton more FF medals than canopy medals)

Then Tony and I went up and he hooked his Specter in a nice 90* carve, and I went DWD on the pond.

Of course, we have no idea what we are talking about. :S

I for one will freely admit that a camera almost killed me once when I was young and stupid.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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The skiiing video shows a guy messing with a camera and losing track of his highly hazardous surroundings.



Yeah Douglas - but you gotta admit that those peeps looked REALLY COOL, and without the camera there, there's absolutely no way they would have been anywhere even near as COOL. Period. It needs to therefore be argued FOR in absolutely every instance, and every opportunity possible - and for any sport / high-risk activity. I mean... why even bother doing the activity at all in the 1st place, if you can't capture it on your really cool (and totally safe - stop saying it's not! >:() small-format camera. :S

You just don't get it, and are trying to hold the newest, most totally cool generation back is all.

Cut it out.

[/sarcasm mode]

Carry on.


You're absolutely right.
All those great adventurers, pilots, skydivers...they all suck compared to the newbies of today, and the newbies can prove their mad skillz because they have cameras to show their bad azz-nezz. And they'll argue how cool it is until they've seen a few incidents, and then magically, they mostly STFU about it.
If nothing else, this topic is a terrific way to get attention when you're feeling alone on a cold winter day.

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This again? B|

I'll be glad when you tire of this particular topic - or at least keep it in the P&V forum. :S

.02




Actually that's exactly part of the reason I started this thread... I too am tired of anytime a 'GoPro' is seen or mentioned in a post the entire thread is transformed into re-discussing small format cameras.

and I didn't post it in P&V because no one reads that shit... :D:D
*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

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I reckon having an IMAX camera strapped to you would be significantly more distracting that having a mini-bullet camera gaffer taped to your noggin.



The snag hazard is different, but both distract and require thought... In fact the small format cameras may be MORE dangerous in this manner since people do not think they are a big deal and ignore the danger.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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>Can't we say once and for all that they are indeed, "generally safe"?

No, no more so than large format cameras are "generally safe." They're both dangerous, and jumpers must have the training and experience to deal with them during the jump so as to not make the effort _too_ unsafe.

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>I reckon having an IMAX camera strapped to you would be significantly more
>distracting that having a mini-bullet camera gaffer taped to your noggin.

Yep. But the guy with the IMAX camera is, generally, going to be more safe.

Why? Because the guy with the IMAX camera is going to be Tom Sanders, Mike McGowan, Norman Kent or someone of that caliber. He's going to have the entire skydive dedicated to the effort, and it will be planned in great detail. The gear will be appropriate, the angles will be precalculated, and the jumper will have to skill to follow the plan exactly.

Now, consider the guy who "tapes a bullet camera to his noggin" so that he, as a low time jumper, can take video of his girlfriend. He's going to have the desire to do much of what Tom Sanders might do - get a good shot, do a good job. But his experience will not allow him to deliver on that, and the effort may put him into positions that he is unused to - on top of the distraction the camera adds.

The problem is not the shape of the camera. The problem is the jumper's PERCEPTION that the smaller camera can be jumped safely with low jump numbers.

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You are your own worst enemy.

Did you see where I said: If you spent as much time skydiving as you . . . .

That was the part on which I hoped you would focus. :S

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

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You are your own worst enemy.

Did you see where I said: If you spent as much time skydiving as you . . . .

That was the part on which I hoped you would focus. :S




Oh... thanks for clarifying. I already skydive as much as time and weather permits. When I'm not skydiving I like to talk about skydiving, watch videos of skydiving, post about skydiving.... Thank goodness for these kickass forums, right... :)

ETA: or do you just disagree with the part where I agreed with you. :D:D
*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

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Yeah I saw that skiing video on FB...

Yes... I mean fatalities or any other significant injury, but I don't even see as much as a broken bone attributed directly to wearing a camera.

I didn't start this thread to argue my opinion, just stating what the statistics seem to show. And, looking to see if the general consensus is 'safe or unsafe'.



You missed the point, just as you've conveniently missed it for the last 266 jumps. At some point, conveniently missing the point will likely catch up to you.
The skiiing video shows a guy messing with a camera and losing track of his highly hazardous surroundings. In other words, the camera is a distraction. There are similar incidents in several sports activities. Skydiving is not "special." Distractions are distractions regardless of what box you put them in




WRONG--- Watch it again... He wasn't "messing" with the camera at all, and it had NOTHING to do with his accident.

Camera was already on and both hands were on his poles. He clipped into his skies and immediately began to slide backwards, and because he was right on the edge he didn't have time to better position him self.

Nothing to do with the camera...
*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

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Do you think small format cameras are generally safe or unsafe???



I once saw a guy with a small format camera filming his kid's birthday party. Thing blew up in his hands. So I voted "unsafe".

Stop trying to get people to validate your already-made decision. Either listen to the voices of experience, or just do whatever the hell you want. But if you jump a camera with low-ish jump numbers, stay off my jump. End of story.

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