Saber2 Pilots..

[scdiver89 0]

Hey guys I was wondering, at about a one to one wingloading is it more efficient to apply a little brakes, or a little rear-riser to get back from a long spot and flying with the wind on a saber2.
thanks!

[Coreefdiver 0]

just the other day I got back from a >1 mile spot from about 3.5k using ~ 1/3 brakes and ~ 1.04 wl on my Sabre2

don't recall the ground winds exactly, but above 1.5k or so, I know I was going into the wind as I was keeping an eye out for an alternate landing spot

two out before me, 1 made it to the official dz, the other close, but they pulled lower.

none of us were in any danger or at risk for the long spot (upper winds pushed harder than expected) there are trees and ditches, but plenty of open space to land


I wouldn't be too concerned when going with the wind as I would against it.

Don't be affraid to call for a go-around (before you get out) or keep an eye on where you are in relation to the DZ while in freefall, and pull higher if you have to. Some places don't have the luxury of open space options that others do.

DS#727, DB Cooper #41, POPS #11065, SCR #13183, FA #2125, SCS #8306, HALO #309 SRA #5930

[DocPop 1]

I used quite deep brakes when I had my Sabre2. I would hook my thumbs into the harness at around waist level to take the load off my arms.

It worked well for me.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[brucet7 0]

I found this article at PDs website and found it interesting and helpful with the same question. www.performancedesigns.com/docs/survival.pdf

POPS #10623; SOS #1672

[CSpenceFLY 1]

I think PD did a study about this a couple years ago. If I remember right they suggested brakes.

[scdiver89 0]

Thanks for all the answers guys,

[davelepka 4]

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I found this article at PDs website and found it interesting and helpful with the same question. http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/survival.pdf

Good read, however I was surprised to find an important point was overlooked in the discussion of being faced with a headwind when heading back to the DZ. The article states the following -

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3. What about a headwind on a long spot?
If you have a headwind, the special point that doesn't move will be quite close to
you. If you need to fly past this point to get to a safe landing area, you will
probably need to use front risers. (Make sure your canopy is quite stable on front
risers before using this technique) How much front risers? Use the accuracy trick
to find out! Try a little front riser and the special point will move. (The angle will
start changing). Try a little more and it will move again. Try a little more. Did the
point move the wrong direction? That's too much front riser. See how this
3
method works to determine the best control position in any bad spot situation?
How about a headwind coming from slightly from one side?
4. Don't forget to leave yourself plenty of safety margin.
Use the accuracy trick in this way to get back to a safe place, but be careful to
avoid fixating on this technique so much that we forget to use our safe options
while they still exist. Make sure you leave yourself plenty of altitude and
maneuvering room to plan a safe approach and landing

The omission, is that when faced with a headwind when heading back the DZ, if you are finding that your options for a safe LZ are slim, and the accuracy trick isn't helping tp improve your odds, simply turn around.

Doing a 180 will take you from beng downwind of a small selection of LZs to being upwind of a much larger selection of LZs. If the wind is considerable enough to hold you back from making it the DZ, it's also strong enough to push you out to a geographical area 10x bigger behind you than what you can reach if you hold your heading and insist on trying to get closer to the DZ.

Of course, there is always the possibility that there are no alternate LZs behind you, and even if you can reach a much larger geographical area, it's all for naught because it's all water/trees/etc, and in those cases you do need to just motor towards the DZ and take what you can get. However, in those cases, spotting before you leave the aircraft becomes much more important, and DZs with those type of features around them tend to err on the side of safety and lean the spots closer to the DZ than the water/trees/etc, even if it means the last out will be long. If there are more alternates on the other side of the DZ, then the spot should be more in that direction, wind speed not withstanding.

[smooth 0]

It may only be my perception but I seem to have gotten good results using rear risers. My canopy's loaded more than 1:1 though.

Of course, your results may vary

[tbrown 26]

You can probably get better canopy performance using your rears, but your arms won't be able to hold out for long, it's hard work. Pulling down half brakes and hooking your thumbs into the harness is recommended.

Remember, you want to able to flare for your landing, so don't wear your arms down to jelly.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[goobersnuftda 0]

Performance Designs has two canopies that will get you the best distance from a long spot. I don't know about others, just PD.

Sabre-2
Stiletto

You must not release the brakes on opening. What you do is once the canopy is in flight and everything is OK pointing in the direction you want to go is to slightly, ever so subtly pull on rear risers (brakes still not released) for a second or two then release.

It is more of a feeling as to how to do this properly. Think of it as the typical crayon drawing kids do of a water wave. You slow your descent by getting on your rear risers and achieving more lift. You release the risers moments later and build up more speed. Stay on the risers too long and you defeat the purpose and sink. Many people don't even pull on their rear risers rather just push them outwards (left & right) then release.

The best way to learn this skill is to go on many cross country jumps with your fellow skydivers. Open high and all try to stay together. Just like when you were first learning to fall with someone doing RW, you need that external focus point to see how you are moving in relation to others.

Yup, good old Saber-baby has saved me on many a bad bad spot. Been in Thailand when a guy was much closer to land than I was and through this technique, I made the beach and he had a waist deep water landing :)

[smooth 0]

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You can probably get better canopy performance using your rears, but your arms won't be able to hold out for long, it's hard work. Pulling down half brakes and hooking your thumbs into the harness is recommended.

Remember, you want to able to flare for your landing, so don't wear your arms down to jelly.

Noted! Will try that next time. My arms did get a little tired.

[P-dro 0]

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You must not release the brakes on opening.

I think it's a dangerous bet. If anything is wrong with your brake lines (misrigged, damaged, tension knot) you'll discover it at the last possible moment, transforming a minor incident in a possibly dangerous situtation.

Plus, your canopy may fly better with released brakes and rear input... YMMV....

[phoenixlpr 0]

It is call PD Sabre 2 anyway.

[goobersnuftda 0]

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I think it's a dangerous bet. If anything is wrong with your brake lines (misrigged, damaged, tension knot) you'll discover it at the last possible moment, transforming a minor incident in a possibly dangerous situtation.

Plus, your canopy may fly better with released brakes and rear input... YMMV....

Very true but life as in skydiving, it is all about what you can compromise in order to get what you need. Of course don't leave your brakes stowed until your final at 200 ft, use this technique to get you past a bad situation.

Look up, you will be able to see any tension knot, miss rigging in your brake lines. Give yourself enough time to deal with issues if they happen to come up but the decision to swap distance for flight characteristics is yours to make.

True, your canopy will fly much better with brakes off as it was designed to but your sink rate will be much, much more than using this technique.

All I am saying is that this is an extra tool in your tool box to help you out when you are in trouble (over water, over trees or mangroves). If you are not skilled enough to use the tool properly please dont. But in the mean time, give yourself the ablity to expand on your skydiving skills and do some 10,000 ft hop and pops to see what this PD "tool" can do for you in case one day you may need it :)

[billvon 2,380]

>Of course don't leave your brakes stowed until your final at 200 ft, use this
>technique to get you past a bad situation.

Don't EVER leave your brakes stowed below your hard deck. By your hard deck you must have a controllable parachute. A great many people have died screwing around with minor problems (stuck toggle, etc) until far too low.

>Look up, you will be able to see any tension knot, miss rigging in your brake lines.

On my last cutaway everything looked fine initially. When I went to release my brakes, the excess line looped around the tip of the toggle and locked it off. Couldn't untangle it even with both hands, holding the other toggle in my teeth. I could fly by compensating with the other one, but the risk of the brake deciding to release just before the flare was significant so I cut it away.

That would really suck to discover at 800 feet.

If you really want to cover more distance:

Kill and collapse your slider
Loosen your chest strap as far as is safe
Hold a _little_ bit of brakes
Spread your rear risers with your hands (decreases cathedral and flattens angle of attack)

[DaVinci999 0]

Bill

Do you loosen chest-strap before or after unstowing your toggles?

I always loosen the chest-strap last because I don't want to have a chop with a loose chest-strap and then be unable to find my reserve handle.

Loosening the chest-strap with toggles in hands is slightly more difficult, but it's a hassle I am prepared to endure.

[JanuszPS 0]

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When I went to release my brakes, the excess line looped around the tip of the toggle and locked it off. Couldn't untangle it even with both hands

I think there was a fatality about 2/3 yrs ago in UK due to similar situation. Didn't you want to cut the steering line and fly on your rears?

I have jumped a Sabre 2 150 @ 1.25WL in a place with strong winds (Ireland) for about 100 jumps.
the final outcome was I choose to change the canopy to one with more flat characteristic (glider) due to increased number of off DZ landings. In one jump I remember that the only persons who didn't land on the dz was me on SA2 150, an AFFI on SA2135 and a student on Navigator. Whatever I did, the canopy was sinking as hell with little of ground cover comparing to others except the AFFI on Sabre 2 aswell ;) with similar problem.
So I changed to Cobalt and there was no more off dz landings anymore :D (but this is out of the topic).

j.

Back to Poland... back home.

[billvon 2,380]

>Do you loosen chest-strap before or after unstowing your toggles?

My procedure post opening is (for non camera jumps)
Hands on risers, looking around for traffic
Kill slider, get it down
Look up, check canopy and toggles
Release toggles
Loosen cheststrap

Camera complicates things, but it's similar.

[Throttlebender 0]

What do you find yourself doing differently with a camera?

Life expands or contracts in proportion to one's courage. ~Anais Nin

[ibx 2]

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My procedure post opening is (for non camera jumps)
Hands on risers, looking around for traffic
Kill slider, get it down
Look up, check canopy and toggles
Release toggles
Loosen cheststrap

Do you loosen your chest strap with the toggles in your hand, or do you let go of the toggles ?

If I loosen my chest strap with toggles in my hand, my canopy does some pretty funky shit, and I have sabre2 loaded at 1.45. I don't want to imagine what a more aggressive, more highly loaded canopy would do.

[DocPop 1]

Quote

Quote

My procedure post opening is (for non camera jumps)
Hands on risers, looking around for traffic
Kill slider, get it down
Look up, check canopy and toggles
Release toggles
Loosen cheststrap

Do you loosen your chest strap with the toggles in your hand, or do you let go of the toggles ?

If I loosen my chest strap with toggles in my hand, my canopy does some pretty funky shit, and I have sabre2 loaded at 1.45. I don't want to imagine what a more aggressive, more highly loaded canopy would do.

I never take my hands out of my toggles after they are unstowed. I load my Katana at about 1.5 and I don't have trouble loosening the cheststrap.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[billvon 2,380]

>Do you loosen your chest strap with the toggles in your hand, or do you let go of the toggles ?

Hands in toggles. In one motion I release the brakes, reach for my chest strap and loosen it.

>If I loosen my chest strap with toggles in my hand, my canopy does some pretty funky shit.

If it takes more than about a second my canopy will stall, but it doesn't take that long.

[DocPop 1]

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If it takes more than about a second my canopy will stall, but it doesn't take that long.

Wow - why do you have your brakes set so short as to have the stall point at chest level?

Would you consider lengthening the brakes to deepen the stall point?

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[ibx 2]

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Hands in toggles. In one motion I release the brakes, reach for my chest strap and loosen it.

You can probably consistently do that. I sometimes notice the chest strap being pretty tight. I would definitely put my canopy in an unstable position if I held on to the toggles long enough plus it puts me in a position where I couldn't immediately initiate a turn.

Maybe the difference lies in me tightening my chest strap more for freeflying ?