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Blue Skies Magazine Sponsoring a Skyride Boogie?

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Start here.
I'd imagine that 90% of the companies in that list "support" S-ride through gear sales, maintenance, training or other in some form or fashion.
Don't forget to add Cessna, Beechcraft, DeHavilland, or PAC to that list. While you're at it, you probably need to add Microsoft, Apple, Sony, Canon, to the list too.
I'd imagine you'd have a hard time not adding Ford, Chev, Dodge to the list...
Boycotting a company that sells product to S-ride DZ's is simply silly.

You might try boycotting the Internet too, because that's what ENTIRELY supports the S-ride brands.

Does that mean we won't see you here anymore?:D:P



While it's not feasible to boycott every company that sells to Skyride, it may be feasible to boycott any company that sponsors them. IMO, there's a difference between a company that sells to someone, and one that sponsors them.
If a Skyride DZ paid the same price for a tandem rig as another non-Skyride DZ, sure, we may not like it that the company sold them the rig, but if they donated it under some form of sponsorship, that would be supporting Skyride and their criminal business practices and that's what needs to be targeted! ie; BSM.
Again, that's just my opinion and not the views of Dropzone.com, it's management or sponsors!;)
:D:D

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Start here.
I'd imagine that 90% of the companies in that list "support" S-ride through gear sales, maintenance, training or other in some form or fashion.
Don't forget to add Cessna, Beechcraft, DeHavilland, or PAC to that list. While you're at it, you probably need to add Microsoft, Apple, Sony, Canon, to the list too.
I'd imagine you'd have a hard time not adding Ford, Chev, Dodge to the list...
Boycotting a company that sells product to S-ride DZ's is simply silly.

You might try boycotting the Internet too, because that's what ENTIRELY supports the S-ride brands.

Does that mean we won't see you here anymore?:D:P



More specifically - And mine - if not the standard criteria as common sense should spell it out for you"

Which companies offer:
Free Direct Incentives (discounts, free advertising, free or discounted gear that sort of thing)
Indirect Incentives (Obviously now BSM does)
Accept thier certificates - I know where the list is for that
Allows (sells) Advertising Space to Skyride

Those are the ones that should be shown that we vote with our pocket books and our feet. They, companies that participate in any of the activities listed, will not get my patronage or my money.

Skyride has taken enough good peoples money, they have been proven that they are dishonest.

There really is no reason to help them continue taking other good people's money, is there?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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I get your hatred for S-ride. BTW, everytime you use their name, you promote their sites in search engines, so take a look in the mirror...:P



Turtle, you and 'bamaSkydiver could go to the boogie. Any stickers, Tshirts, pullup cords, chapstick, whatever the heck else you find there; PUNISH those bastards that support funjumpers. Damn, they should be pummelled out of business.
Pettiness knows no bounds. [:/]

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>>>I get your hatred for S-ride. BTW, everytime you use their name, you promote their sites in search engines, so take a look in the mirror...:P
1) It seems now that you are in favor of helping SR in thier endeavors - that is really sad.[:/]
2) Good point - I will use a different way of Identifying them - I was tring to be polite and not use slurs or intentional misspellings, but I guess S-ride or SR will do - Thanks for the tip.


>>>Turtle, you and 'bamaSkydiver could go to the boogie. Any stickers, Tshirts, pullup cords, chapstick, >>>whatever the heck else you find there; PUNISH those bastards that support funjumpers. Damn, they >>>should be pummelled out of business.
>>>Pettiness knows no bounds. [:/]



Punishment? Seriously? Have you lost your mind? On what grounds?

Simple coherant, respectful lobbying and explaning the doings of SR and their affliates is all that would be needed or necessary. That is protest enough, if done enough, and done properly. That is what is being done here. Just get the word out to as many people as you can ans often as you can.

It came to my attention that a distant cousin of mine was thinking about going for a SR, luckily someone in my family heard about it and told them about me. I directed them to a DZ that was close to them, nstead of the one that was reccomended tpo them by SR (Thank goodness that they hadn't commited the Credit Card). They had a wonderful time and still watch the video at least once a week. Cost $225 - saved them 25 to 30%:)

No - they(everyone from Business owners to Fun Jumpers) should simply be convinced to help put SR out of business.
They should be supporting Honest Dropzones and other Honest Skydiving Related Business Owners.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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Simple coherant, respectful lobbying and explaning the doings of SR and their affliates is all that would be needed or necessary. That is protest enough, if done enough, and done properly. That is what is being done here. Just get the word out to as many people as you can ans often as you can.



Somewhere I've missed something...
"Hey everybody! Cancel your BSM subscription because they are advertising their business at a place I don't like."
That's not punishment?
Perhaps I'm not coherent.

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And btw - my point was that it's non-productive to single out one company (or organization) to boycott when other companies are doing the same thing. Either boycott all of them or boycott none. Picking on one while ignoring the others is nothing more than blowing smoke.



If you can't understand the difference between having to be a member to teach and jump at most DZ's, compete at the Nationals.. etc. vs reading or not reading a magazine.... Well, you have a serious issue.

And I already said if I didn't have to be a USPA member to teach and compete at the Nationals... I would not be. But BSM does not have the ability to ground me for not reading their mag.

I have also not once said that a person should cxl their membership to BSM over this.... But, unlike you and a few others, I do support a persons right to refuse to support a company that does things they don't like.... It is called a free market.

You are suggesting that a person quitting skydiving and not reading a magazine are the same thing.

Again... Just because you gave up on the sport does not mean everyone else should.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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I have to agree with you DSE. When the story broke that BSM was "supporting" S-Ride it became apparent very quickly that there were a lot of emotions involved.

As for those that are trying to define support and are willing to let those that sell things to S-Ride slide, I have one question. Will you ever know if those that sold to S-Ride charged full list price? Any kind of discount, break or "throwing something in" would be supporting S-Ride by the definitions being proposed. I doubt there will ever be a way to know who has "supported" S-Ride by the narrow definitions people are trying to define.
"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

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Simple coherant, respectful lobbying and explaning the doings of SR and their affliates is all that would be needed or necessary. That is protest enough, if done enough, and done properly. That is what is being done here. Just get the word out to as many people as you can ans often as you can.



Somewhere I've missed something...
"Hey everybody! Cancel your BSM subscription because they are advertising their business at a place I don't like."
That's not punishment?
Perhaps I'm not coherent.


No - it is not punishment.

I have a hard time believing that you don't know the difference between Boycott and Punishment.

If the actions are changed and the future endeavors set straight, then the boycott ends.

That is how it can be done. It is definately a loud and clear message to the peole that we would ordinarily be doing business with, that if they continue to support SR that they will be lacking some where they should have gains. At that point it becomes a decision of wether the losses from everyone else outweigh the potential gains that SR brings with them and their reputation.

I am sorry if you don't like it, but there it is.

Maybe we should just let SR alone and to thier own devices. I'm sure they will start walking the straight and narrow any time now.:S
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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I have to agree with you DSE. When the story broke that BSM was "supporting" S-Ride it became apparent very quickly that there were a lot of emotions involved.

As for those that are trying to define support and are willing to let those that sell things to S-Ride slide, I have one question. Will you ever know if those that sold to S-Ride charged full list price? Any kind of discount, break or "throwing something in" would be supporting S-Ride by the definitions being proposed. I doubt there will ever be a way to know who has "supported" S-Ride by the narrow definitions people are trying to define.



All you can do is the moral best that you can do. No system is perfect, but if you refuse to fight for what is right and just, which side of the issue are you on?

Too few people actually take a stand in what they believe in - they just let it pass them by.

I refuse to do that.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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Well, you have a serious issue.



First it was my intelligence and now it's my mental status. What's next to attack, my physical appearance?

We disagree. There's no need to attack me personally because I don't agree with you. AFAIK, there used to be a "rule" about that kind of stuff around here.

But if it makes you feel better about yourself...

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Too few people actually take a stand in what they believe in - they just let it pass them by.



I believe that it is critically important to have an independent voice in U.S.-based skydiving publications, one that can discuss the controversial issues (including Skyride) openly, even if that independent voice says/does/publishes things that I don't always agree with or believe in.

Because I believe in this, I subscribe to and will continue to subscribe to, Blue Skies Magazine. I also write for them occasionally as a form of support (and because it's fun).

The thing I believe in may be different than the thing you believe in (or we've prioritized them differently). But please don't accuse me of letting it "pass me by."
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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We disagree. There's no need to attack me personally because I don't agree with you. AFAIK, there used to be a "rule" about that kind of stuff around here.



You claimed "If you aren't willing to be inconvenienced by your "protest," then it doesn't really mean anything. If you aren't going to boycott every company and organization that "support" them, you're not taking a stand on anything. You're just blowing smoke."

I said that you seem to be incapable of seeing the difference between never jumping again and not reading a magazine, and it sure seems you are unable to tell the difference. Pointing that out is not a PA.

You are determined to try and stick to your opinion that:

Not reading a magazine is = to not jumping again.

Not being able to see that the comparison between the USPA and BSM,and the relationship between the USPA and skyride is much more complex than you want to make it out....is an issue. Pretending that the consequences of a boycott of both being the same is an issue. Until you admit that the consequences are not equal... then you have an issue that prevents discussion. Pointing that out is not a PA either.

Overall you seem to miss the point I have said over and over:

* I think that an individual has the right to refuse to pay a company that operates in a way they do not like.... This includes not paying a company that supports another company they don't like.

This is one of the very tenants of the idea of free enterprise. This means the person has to make choices and live by those choices.

* I said that I am "forced" to be a member of the USPA... That or I will never be allowed to teach again, or go to the Nationals.

I also said that if I was not "forced", I would not be a member of the USPA.

* Your claim of USPA 'supporting' Skyride is false. The USPA was FORCED.

So me blaming the USPA for being forced to 'support' skyride is not logical and not worth never teaching again.

The fact that you quit jumping seems to make you think everyone should. The fact you hate the USPA is clear.... You quit. I am not blasting you for your choice, but you seem hell bent on blasting anyone else for making their own choice.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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All you can do is the moral best that you can do. No system is perfect, but if you refuse to fight for what is right and just, which side of the issue are you on?

Too few people actually take a stand in what they believe in - they just let it pass them by.

I refuse to do that.



*ANY* time you want to compare taking stands, I'd be happy to oblige you toe to toe, bro.
It's incredibly easy to "take the high road" of morals when there is no toll paid to get on the road.
You don't jump, ergo you pay nothing.

Moral arrogance is refusing to acknowledge that for some controversial moral issues there may be a morally acceptable solution beyond the one that you favor.

It's easy to ignore the consequencesfor the people you're boycotting, and failing to weigh their significantly greater good vs the puny benefit Sride gets because of a pullup cord or a magazine subscription shows a "stand" of moral arrogance vs thinking about what's best for the sport.

I'd much rather have BSM on my coffee table than see them go away because they gave away a subscription or some stickers that benefitted fun jumpers to help promote the sport I love. I suspect any rational, intelligent skydiver would.

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I just purchased a subscription to BSM. If the mag is half as entertaining as this thread than it's money well spent.

I'm anti-slyride but the over-reactions coming from this thread are ridiculous. They sent a few promo items to a boogie for fun jumpers. It's not like they're in bed with SR.
I got nuthin

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I said that you seem to be incapable of seeing the difference between never jumping again and not reading a magazine, and it sure seems you are unable to tell the difference. Pointing that out is not a PA.



Yes. It is.

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You are determined to try and stick to your opinion



As are you. Do I not have the same right as you to have an opinion and express it?

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The fact that you quit jumping seems to make you think everyone should. The fact you hate the USPA is clear....



You're wrong on that point. I don't hate USPA. USPA has done huge things for safety in this sport. USPA has kept the government mostly off our backs for years. Without USPA, lots more skydivers would have died and jumping in the US today would be heavily regulated and even more expensive.

My protest is not against USPA as an organization. It's existence is vital to you being able to continue to skydive. My protest is against things that the organization is doing and not doing to the point that I don't want to support them with my money.

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then you have an issue



Note that not once in any of my replies to you have I questioned your intelligence or mental status, even though you have repeatedly questioned mine.

Do have a nice day.

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I just purchased a subscription to BSM. If the mag is half as entertaining as this thread than it's money well spent.

I'm anti-slyride but the over-reactions coming from this thread are ridiculous. They sent a few promo items to a boogie for fun jumpers. It's not like they're in bed with SR.



We're a little late to this super fun party, and the thread has spun past having much to do with us, but I did want to reply to some things.

First, as people have now figured out, we are sending a subscription and t-shirt to the Adventure Skydiving Tennessee for their upcoming boogie. Where anyone got the idea that we are full-on "sponsoring a SkyRide boogie" is beyond me, and we were never (and still haven't been) asked if that was the case, or what that even entailed.

Second, we knew AST was affiliated with SkyRide before we agreed to send shwag to their boogie. We support skydivers wherever they choose to jump, whether we agree with their decision or not. We stand behind our actions -- and respect anyone who doesn't agree.

Third, we started this community of Blue Skies Mag as a group of intelligent, opinionated, respectful people who like beer, boobies and flying under nylon. We absolutely agree on one thing only: To respectfully disagree. If we ever do anything that is so morally reprehensible that you feel you can't be part of our community anymore, you should absolutely leave. The fact that this action is the unacceptable one out of everything else we've done, printed or posted is a bit past our comprehension, but we're not the smartest people on Earth.

Kolla and I just did a 200-mile, 36-hour running relay so our brains are still a bit fuzzy -- and why we haven't replied until now. We will have a more thought out response in our next issue, and please feel free to write letters to the editor (aka me) at [email protected].
Blue Skies Mag

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Yes. It is.



If thinking that makes you feel better.... fine. Sorry if I offended you.

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As are you. Do I not have the same right as you to have an opinion and express it?



Of course you have the right to an opinion.... What I have said is discussing this issue when your opinion is based on the premise of:

Not skydiving is the same as not reading a magazine

Is nonsense. But that is what not joining the USPA pretty much means.

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You're wrong on that point. I don't hate USPA.



http://skybytch.livejournal.com/13166.html

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DZ's have been telling people it's safe for a long time, and now even USPA says it's true. They are wrong and they should know better than to open the doors for lawsuits by advertising it in this manner.

I have to be a USPA member to skydive; I have an issue with providing financial support to this sort of sport promotion.

("issue" the same way I used it... Was it a PA?)

USPA, the organization tasked with policing the sport, is ineffectual at best and dangerously behind the times at worst

Again, I have to be a USPA member to skydive; I have an issue providing financial support to an organization that isn't fulfilling it's most basic function.

(again "issue" the same way I used it... Was it a PA?)



Your comments seem to say otherwise.... and you did use them as one reason you quit the sport. Seems a little silly to quit a sport over an organization you don't hate.

Besides.... you kept saying "I have to be a USPA member to skydive".... But the same cannot be said of BSM... Which was my point all along.

You have said that a person who is not willing to quit the USPA (Quit jumping according to YOU) is just "blowing smoke".

So until you can admit that cxling a magazine subscription != as not being a member of the USPA.... there is nothing we can discuss.

You have a nice day as well.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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I just purchased a subscription to BSM. If the mag is half as entertaining as this thread than it's money well spent.

I'm anti-slyride but the over-reactions coming from this thread are ridiculous. They sent a few promo items to a boogie for fun jumpers. It's not like they're in bed with SR.



We're a little late to this super fun party, and the thread has spun past having much to do with us, but I did want to reply to some things.

First, as people have now figured out, we are sending a subscription and t-shirt to the Adventure Skydiving Tennessee for their upcoming boogie. Where anyone got the idea that we are full-on "sponsoring a SkyRide boogie" is beyond me, and we were never (and still haven't been) asked if that was the case, or what that even entailed.

Second, we knew AST was affiliated with SkyRide before we agreed to send shwag to their boogie. We support skydivers wherever they choose to jump, whether we agree with their decision or not. We stand behind our actions -- and respect anyone who doesn't agree.

Third, we started this community of Blue Skies Mag as a group of intelligent, opinionated, respectful people who like beer, boobies and flying under nylon. We absolutely agree on one thing only: To respectfully disagree. If we ever do anything that is so morally reprehensible that you feel you can't be part of our community anymore, you should absolutely leave. The fact that this action is the unacceptable one out of everything else we've done, printed or posted is a bit past our comprehension, but we're not the smartest people on Earth.

Kolla and I just did a 200-mile, 36-hour running relay so our brains are still a bit fuzzy -- and why we haven't replied until now. We will have a more thought out response in our next issue, and please feel free to write letters to the editor (aka me) at [email protected].


Hey Lara,

I've been waiting to hear from you on this one, as I long ago ran out of cheese to go with all of the whine.

First, congratulations on your spectacular ROI for one subscription and one t-shirt... Madonna will be sending you a fan letter any day now!

Second, don't retreat -- RELOAD... send more to the next Skyride boogie. As Mike and Sue discovered at SKYDIVING, the best way to deal with whiners was give them more -- much more -- of the same to whine about (some of my faves: 1) when some libber chick whined about "sexism" in the mag, Mike put in a full-page house ad of a smoking hot chick sitting in a bathtub full of hotdogs; 2) someone whined about boobies in the mag and canceled her subscription, so Sue posted a pic of a naked dude in a field of flowers and asked readers to please show it to the girl who canceled her sub; and 3) someone else whined about them putting in an ad featuring machine guns and hot chicks (go figure), so Sue put in a pic of three naked guys holding automatic weapons in phallically suggestive poses to give the gals "equal opportunity" to be, ahem, titillated).

Third, keep on keepin' on! Considering how many business (not moral) mistakes you made out of the gate, I always thought it was amazing that you're still around, but after reading your (allegedly) fuzzy brain post, I can see why you've managed to keep your rag above room temperature so far.

Best of luck going forward.

B|
SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

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Seems a little silly to quit a sport over an organization you don't hate.



Nothing in my blog post says that I hate USPA. USPA isn't fulfilling it's primary role, in my opinion, therefore I choose not to support them with my money. How does that equal hating the organization?

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What I have said is discussing this issue when your opinion is based on the premise of:

Not skydiving is the same as not reading a magazine

Is nonsense.



So why are you continuing to discuss it? :ph34r:

That isn't my premise, btw. My premise is that if a person (the global "You") is so upset about something that they are going to boycott a business, that person should also boycott any other businesses that do the same thing. If PD is sending pullup cords to the boogie and BSM is sending a free subscription and Aerodyne is sending a rep with demo gear, why is it only BSM that some people feel need to be boycotted? (Note - I have no idea if PD or Aerodyne are sending anything or anybody. Just using them as examples)

Because BSM is the most convenient target.

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All you can do is the moral best that you can do. No system is perfect, but if you refuse to fight for what is right and just, which side of the issue are you on?

Too few people actually take a stand in what they believe in - they just let it pass them by.

I refuse to do that.



>>>*ANY* time you want to compare taking stands, I'd be happy to oblige you toe to toe, bro.
>>>It's incredibly easy to "take the high road" of morals when there is no toll paid to get on the road.
Your opportunity is in front of you - what is wrong with this issue?

>>>You don't jump, ergo you pay nothing.
Have you been peeking at my checkbook? Otherwise how would you know?

>>>Moral arrogance is refusing to acknowledge that for some controversial moral issues there may be a >>>morally acceptable solution beyond the one that you favor.
It is also trying to lecture and look down with disdain on an opinion that you do not share and then word your responses with a belittling tone.

>>>It's easy to ignore the consequencesfor the people you're boycotting, and failing to weigh their >>>significantly greater good vs the puny benefit Sride gets because of a pullup cord or a magazine >>>subscription shows a "stand" of moral arrogance vs thinking about what's best for the sport.
OK - let me get this straight . . . If a person in your world disagrees with how someone does business, then, he is not allowed to say anything, or do anything about it. Check.

>>>I'd much rather have BSM on my coffee table than see them go away because they gave away a >>>subscription or some stickers that benefitted fun jumpers to help promote the sport I love. I suspect >>>any rational, intelligent skydiver would.
Obviously I have struck a nerve. That wasn't my intention.
Any Rational, Intelligent, PERSON would take a step back, and not let their emotions rule their keystrokes.
I would rather hae a community that stuck together on the side of truth and integrity.
It may seem small to you, but the fundamentals are what they are.
Anyone making it easier on SR to continue doing business is simply wrong.



I'd rather SR just go away or start doing business as an honest and integrity based organization that doesn't have internet and credit card fraud in it's buisness plan.

If I understand what you wrote correctly, you would rather me not take a stand, and this is based on the premise that you think that I am not aware or at least noncompassionate to the underlying issues.

I am fully aware that Lodi takes a lot of the business away from the other DZs in California.

I have had a conversation about that very issue earlier today.

Getting on YOUR moral high horse and trying to look down at me because I choose to take the stand that you know is right, but you refuse to take the hard road because it is harder, is just ludicris.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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Here is a novel idea.......at the next airport down the road from Waverly, TN.......There could be a Super Otter flying jumpers (on the same dates).....And I guarantee no skyride nor any of there supporters will be on the plane. Only good, honest people with no oddball attitudes will be allowed. This could happen!! And it just might!!
People are crazy. Cuz there's more of 'em.

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