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matthewcline

Addressing Safety Concerns (Individuals)

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So, it is Safety Day weekend for most of the US.

How have DZ's, Instructors, S&TA's, DZM's and DZO's approached those Individuals who they where concerned about last year, already concerned about this year?

Did you try further mass education or individual education?

Did you try nice friendly chats?

Did you try the in your face method?

Did you hand them a Incident report and asked them to fill it out and leave the date blank?

Did you add them to your "Bounce Board"?
(Can some one be added to the Board after surviving a "Bounce", if you feel they did not learn from it and are on the same path again?)

What methods did you fellow Managers of Chaos use?

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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I keep a video "log" of "not good stuff" that I use to demonstrate possible issues. In a couple cases, the individuals have argued, but after seeing a video of "bad stuff" they have always re-thought their actions.
Keeping it friendly as possible usually works.
The student with three canopy cutaways in 30 jumps didn't respond well to the friendly approach.:P

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The student with three canopy cutaways in 30 jumps didn't respond well to the friendly approach.



if he is still on student status after 30 jumps then i have to say the instructors are not doing their job right :S:D then again they may not have givin him the proper bowling speech either:)

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if he is still on student status after 30 jumps then i have to say the instructors are not doing their job right :S:D then again they may not have givin him the proper bowling speech either:)



With that statement, I'll assume you hold no ratings.
Some people take longer than others. Some people shouldn't be skydiving, no doubt. And some folks just take longer than others to "get it."
Mabye a different set of instructors changed up the student (who now has their A). ;)

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The student with three canopy cutaways in 30 jumps didn't respond well to the friendly approach.



if he is still on student status after 30 jumps then i have to say the instructors are not doing their job right :S:D then again they may not have givin him the proper bowling speech either:)


Yes, because all students get it in exactly 25 jumps. :|

Good thing I (and my awesome instructors and coaches) didn't believe that when I took 37 to meet the requirements for my A. Since then I've done almost 800 jumps, gotten a D license, earned a coach rating, and competed in 4-way and 8-way at Nationals, learned a lot, and had a hell of a lot of fun. I'm still far from the world's greatest skydiver, but I do my best to be as safe as possible.

But y'know, I probably should have quit at jump 26 because I was still on student status. :D:D
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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I don't hold an instuctor rating but i do have my coach 1 and Rigger Rating :P



"Coach 1" in the US?
if you'd write off a student beyond 25 jumps...it says a lot more about you than the student, and that isn't a positive thing, IMO

Safety issues need to be addressed firmly, but FAIRLY with an eyeball on how the student or other jumper responds.
I had one person with very poor instruction argue with me the other day. This person was allegedly taught to hold a PC "until stable" and argued in favor of it even after being shown a video of the bridle flipping over their helmet and arm. This person argued with several AFFI's and an Examiner.
It's a stupid practice for a low-time skydiver. Should they be grounded? Should they be asked to leave? Should they be shown the right methods with clear explanations of why they are putting themselves in danger and allowed to jump once they clearly understand the risk?

I went with the latter. And if something happens to this skydiver, at least we'll know we did our best as instructors and safety officers.

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The student with three canopy cutaways in 30 jumps didn't respond well to the friendly approach. 



if he is still on student status after 30 jumps then i have to say the instructors are not doing their job right :S:D then again they may not have givin him the proper bowling speech either:)


Please tell me that you are kidding!  Thank heavens nobody booted me out of the sport when I didn't have all my accuracy jumps by jump #25!  Students take as long as they take. There are many excellent jumpers I know who struggled as students, despite competent instruction. 
The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

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Out of curiosity how do you determine if someone needs the "in your face" approach or the "nice" approach. Personally, I don't respond (at least in a positive manner) to the in your face approach.



I base it on the person. It is up to me as an Instructor to figure that out. I ramp it up till I see where I am at your limit.

But "touchy feely" some times leads to a funeral. Knowing where you took AFF and how you started here, I would venture you have had a bit of both?

But your still jumping, so it worked for you, the bit of both thing.

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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if he is still on student status after 30 jumps then i have to say the instructors are not doing their job right :S:D then again they may not have givin him the proper bowling speech either:)



It took me 48 jumps to get off of student status! I have over 7000 jumps now with multiple ratings and multiple world records..

Glad my instructors didn't give up on me!

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I should clarify; In the cspa, after you get off student status you get your "solo" then your "A" cop.

How does it work in the US? Student then A?



Students are typically cleared for solo status after completion of AFF or their initial set of static line/IAD jumps. They're still considered a student until they have their A license (minimum 25 jumps, completion and documentation of all required skills for the A license).

However, no matter whether we're talking "cleared to solo" or "completed A license," your statement is still not something I'd want to hear from an instructor. Our job is to grow student skydivers into A licensed jumpers, whether that takes 25 jumps or 50 or more, not to tell them to quit just because they aren't progressing at the fastest pace. Of course we have to make judgments about those for whom skydiving really isn't the right sport, but that judgment should come only after trying different teaching techniques (including different teachers, if necessary).

I can't think of too many things that would cause me to give up on working with a student who really wanted to stay in the sport (and working with them might mean handing them off to another instructor or coach if we weren't clicking). About the only time I might consider giving up on a student is if he/she were a constant willful danger to him/herself and/or others and wasn't willing to work with the instructional staff to understand and modify their approach/actions.

Of course, students can be a danger to themselves and others without it being willful, a lot of the time it's just because they're learning and making mistakes (one of our instructors called them "blue-jumpsuited killing machines" at Safety Day when he was strongly encouraging experienced jumpers to assume that students don't see other jumpers in the pattern in the student landing area. :D He's right, but we work with our students to gradually get better at that, and most things.)
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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Thanks for your info. My first post was to be taken sarcastically, however sarcasm doesn't translate well over the internet.



IMO, sarcasm has no place when discussing safety concerns. But that's just me.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Thanks for your info. My first post was to be taken sarcastically, however sarcasm doesn't translate well over the internet.



IMO, sarcasm has no place when discussing safety concerns. But that's just me.



even if it wasn't a sarcastic post, it is still a safety concern when a student who is under instructor supervision has 3 cutaways in thirty jumps

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Thanks for your info. My first post was to be taken sarcastically, however sarcasm doesn't translate well over the internet.



IMO, sarcasm has no place when discussing safety concerns. But that's just me.



even if it wasn't a sarcastic post, it is still a safety concern when a student who is under instructor supervision has 3 cutaways in thirty jumps



If they had 3 mals, whats the problem? Sure, chances are that a jumper will get 3 out of 30 are low, but they're still there.

I'd be more worried if a student DIDN'T want to chop something that they didn't like. Its their ass, their call, right?
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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The student with three canopy cutaways in 30 jumps didn't respond well to the friendly approach.:P



Maybe I'm not hearing things right, but why is everyone fixating on this student's status as a student ? (It also took me something like 34 jumps to get off student status, back in the day.) What concerns me is why this student has had 3 cutaways in just 30 jumps. Who does his/her packing ? Are there stability problems ? Are these real malfunctions or just a very nervous student ? What kind of a student operation is this place running anyway ?

It's not unheard of for a student to have a mal somewhere in their student progression, but three ? I'd be concerned about ANYBODY who was running a 10% malfunction rate, let alone a student. If nothing else, I'd give this student an attaboy for having the sheer determination to stick with it !

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

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Maybe I'm not hearing things right, but why is everyone fixating on this student's status as a student ?

]

This statement doesn't jibe with:

Quote

I'd be concerned about ANYBODY who was running a 10% malfunction rate, let alone a student.



Yeah, others were concerned with this student too (exceptionally nervous person), but then you go on to say "what kind of operation is this..."
The answer to which is "one that will try their best to keep people safe while achieving their dreams."
Obviously they were taught well enough to manage 3 mals, but you can't teach out "over-reacting."
This person passed student status, had an incident, and was encouraged to consider other activities in life, and so they have.
That said, my conversation with the student was along the lines of "we deploy very high so that we have time to deal with malfunctions. There are few reasons to chop a canopy above 4000; you're trained to deal with malfunctions and if you're frightened of line twists, then we have to reconsider your progression."

There are indeed, people that shouldn't be skydiving. We can only help so far, and in some situations, it's not at all a reflection of who is teaching them, but rather their own limitations that create safety concerns.

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