MakeItHappen 15 #1 January 12, 2011 http://www.in.gov/legislative/bills/2011/IN/IN0387.1.html Info on who to write and what to write to follow within a few days. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 14 #2 January 12, 2011 Wow... I hope all the Indiana jumpers take note of this and reply since its asking the DZ's to front the cost of administering the program. In reality that means that 6 businesses will need to cover the entire cost of this program. That looks to be potentially several hundreds or thousands of dollars per DZ in fees each year. My fear would be that once it passes in one state the neighboring states may want to approve a similar law.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bertt 0 #3 January 12, 2011 I'll see your $10,000 rescue fee and raise you a skydiving fund. The nice thing about extorting money from skydivers is that there aren't very many of them, so they don't have many votes or much political clout.You don't have to outrun the bear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
firemedic 7 #4 January 12, 2011 Now the government wants to impose a skydiving tax. We are not the land of the free, we're the land of the fee. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
anthonyfellows 0 #5 January 12, 2011 QuoteNow the government wants to impose a skydiving tax. We are not the land of the free, we're the land of the fee. +1Serious relationships turn into work after a few weeks and I already got a fucking job :) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ H.A.F. = Hard As Fuck ... Goddamn Amateurs Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
angrypeppers 1 #6 January 12, 2011 Jan, what is the back story on this bill?Burn the land and boil the sea, You can't take the sky from me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gmalanoski 0 #7 January 12, 2011 Personally, I don't see the positive outcome of this. The bill does nothing new. Dropzones are already required to follow FAA guidelines, correct??? And dropzones which are USPA members must follow the USPA BSR's and training, correct??? The only outcome I see is that small struggling dropzones will find it more difficult, if not impossible, to continue operation. Here is the website of the dipshit who authored this bill (sadly my representative): http://www.in.gov/s36/ and here is a link to the fiscal analysis: http://www.in.gov/legislative/bills/2011/PDF/FISCAL/SB0387.001.pdf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #8 January 12, 2011 QuotePersonally, I don't see the positive outcome of this. The bill does nothing new. Dropzones are already required to follow FAA guidelines, correct??? The only 'positive' is the Indiana govt gets to claim they are doing something. [email protected] Even though I am not in IN.... I am going to email him anyway. QuoteSir.... I have to wonder what possible positive outcome can come from this bill? The only thing I see is an increase in the size of the Govt and increased fees to hard working business owners. Your bill is well intended, but skydiving centers are already required to follow Federal Aviation Regulations and each skydiving center that operates as a USPA "group member" promises to follow the rules set forth by that organization as well. Your proposed Bill just holds skydiving centers to the standards they already follow by law and by choice. At best, this seems like it will just hope to hold these small businesses to rules they already have to follow and already volunteer to follow. At worse, it will increase the cost for these small businesses, increase the size of the State Government, and provide a supervisory role trying to regulate something that even your own Fiscal Impact Statement claims: "There are very few comparable requirements for regulation of businesses due to the apparently small number of business and the limited season for parachuting in Indiana" then add in: "INDOT does not currently conduct a program of business certification, and the cost of implementing the program and continuing inspections is unknown." And you get a proposed program that does nothing to actually increase safety, run by people that do not understand the sport, and at a cost that no one is able to even guess at. A noble idea, but fraught with too many issues that could cripple or kill small business's in your State. Respectfully,"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
anthonyfellows 0 #9 January 12, 2011 QuoteHere is the website of the dipshit who authored this bill (sadly my representative): http://www.in.gov/s36/ That guy looks like a homo.Serious relationships turn into work after a few weeks and I already got a fucking job :) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ H.A.F. = Hard As Fuck ... Goddamn Amateurs Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #10 January 12, 2011 Jurisdiction issues? Seems this may be enchroaching on federal responsibilities."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydived19006 4 #11 January 12, 2011 I don't see any upside of this for the skydiving community. How the hell did this end up on this dip shit's radar? Is/was he a skydiver? Who wrote it? Is there such thing as a skydiving industry lobbyist other than the USPA? I don't really agree with the estimation that it could cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. Realistically one person could administer it, or for that matter a fraction of one person's time could manage it. One guy could spend one day a week, all day at every DZ year round. At least the way it's written it's not an attempt to fund other State infrastructure, the money that goes into "the fund" stays in the fund. At least government is always extremely efficient. Wouldn't it be nice if they would devote this kind of effort to something actually beneficial such as dealing with the skyride issue. This is so stupid it would follow that the State will contract with the Skyride boys to administer the damn thing.Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #12 January 12, 2011 QuoteRealistically one person could administer it, or for that matter a fraction of one person's time could manage it. One guy could spend one day a week, all day at every DZ year round. One person might be able to run the 'department' but that person would have be an educated, qualified individual. If the state is currently employing such a person in a part-time capacity, who can then be bumped up to full time, that would be one thing. I highly doubt that is the case, so this will require a new-hire, and again, of a qualified, college educated person. Add in the time and costs for travel, the related office expenses to be incurred, and even if you could get one person to do this on a part time basis, it could easily cost $60,000/year, which translates into $10,000 per-year per-DZ. Now let's keep in mind that nothing the govt. does is know for being cost-effective, and I would guess that they will require a budget in excess of $100k/year in the best case scenario. Does anyone know if this guy has a reason to try to run skydiving out of Indiana? A $10k+ yearly 'certification fee' would surely be a deal breaker for some of the smaller DZs. Also, did I miss the rash of fatalities or injuries in Indiana that required govt intervention? If you take aircraft related injuries/fatalities out of the equation (that's FAA business) I can't even recall much of anything bad happening in Indiana for the last few years (I'm not even sure about aircraft related incidents, just that they are already overseen by the FAA). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #13 January 12, 2011 and all this imposed on a half dozen business's.... There is no way they could collect enough fee's to cover anything,,,i'll bet they never thought of that....here we go... all states are going to start to panic and start charging for anything and everything,,,, smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydived19006 4 #14 January 12, 2011 Quote and all this imposed on a half dozen business's.... There is no way they could collect enough fee's to cover anything,,,i'll bet they never thought of that....here we go... all states are going to start to panic and start charging for anything and everything,,,, There's no logic in this though. They currently do not have the expense associated with overseeing skydiving and it's not nor does it have the potential to create funding to help with other spending.Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #15 January 12, 2011 Quote How the hell did this end up on this dip shit's radar? When Bob D. got his insurance check for crashing the caravan, they threw a big ass "new airplane" party.... and I just knew sure as shit, when I saw this guy's 14 year old Daughter win the wet t-shirt contest that night, there was going to be a heap of trouble.... Last I heard she had run off with a packer from Jerry's flying circus...you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bertt 0 #16 January 12, 2011 A. On behalf of my many gay friends, I formally protest your comparison between honest, hard-working individuals with fashionable hairstyles and a politician - especially this politician. B. The financial analysis can best be summed up as, "Gee, I dunno". I'd go with Dave's estimate of at least one full-time equivalent and upwards of $10,000 per DZ, but I'm sure there's a way to increase it. C. This is doubly redundant because in addition to USPA and FAA, Indiana DOT has an aviation department already to insure aviation safety. D. Even tho this gives the BSR's the force of law, there's no enforcement provision against individual skydivers. Presumably, if I jump at an Indiana DZ and pull below 2000 feet, the DZ will have to shut down, and I'll be free to continue my path of destruction to the next DZ. E. The number one FAQ on the senator's web site is "How do I file for unemployment." Not sure what that means; somehow it just fits.You don't have to outrun the bear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bdazel 0 #17 January 12, 2011 Bertt, all good points. But perhaps there is an enforcement provision against instructors. There is a colorable argument based on the definition of "skydiving business" that any instructor is an "operator" of a "skydiving business." But under that definition each instructor (tandem/AFF/coach) would be required to obtain a state license from INDOT in order to lawfully operate his/her "skydiving business." That would also mean that traveling instructors would be prohibited from doing any training whatsoever in Indiana without obtaining a license, including tandem instructor examiners, etc. Can you imagine the difficulty if every state had a statute with this affect? But somehow I don't think this result is what Waltz envisioned with this bill, and I hope he doesn't get that idea. Regardless, the bill as written is unclear. "Operator" is not defined in Title 8 of the Indiana code. The meaning of the word has been litigated in other cases involving different statutes, which may or may not lend guidance to the meaning of the word as used in this bill. Once INDOT creates agency rules for implementing this act, it may become clearer. Hopefully it doesn't get to that point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
topdocker 0 #18 January 12, 2011 QuoteBertt, all good points. But perhaps there is an enforcement provision against instructors. There is a colorable argument based on the definition of "skydiving business" that any instructor is an "operator" of a "skydiving business." But under that definition each instructor (tandem/AFF/coach) would be required to obtain a state license from INDOT in order to lawfully operate his/her "skydiving business." That would also mean that traveling instructors would be prohibited from doing any training whatsoever in Indiana without obtaining a license, including tandem instructor examiners, etc. Can you imagine the difficulty if every state had a statute with this affect? But somehow I don't think this result is what Waltz envisioned with this bill, and I hope he doesn't get that idea. Regardless, the bill as written is unclear. "Operator" is not defined in Title 8 of the Indiana code. The meaning of the word has been litigated in other cases involving different statutes, which may or may not lend guidance to the meaning of the word as used in this bill. Once INDOT creates agency rules for implementing this act, it may become clearer. Hopefully it doesn't get to that point. I would bet it would cover any demos as well. That would mean you would need to get FAA permission and INDOT permission to do a demo in the state. Probably even if you are doing a free demo, it could be considered a skydiving business. I'll send this Randy Ottinger's way at USPA HQ, he probably has some very sound arguments against this bill. topJump more, post less! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 370 #19 January 12, 2011 Quotehttp://www.in.gov/legislative/bills/2011/IN/IN0387.1.html Info on who to write and what to write to follow within a few days. . Hello USPA. Hello? Hello?????Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ahuey 0 #20 January 13, 2011 I spoke with Randy Allison (Regional Director) regarding this bill today. He was aware of the bill and so is the USPA. The Director of Government Relations for the USPA, Randy Ottinger is working on this too. It sounded like this was a high priority for the USPA because it will set a precedence for other states. It's pretty mysterious as to why this bill has came about... I encourage everyone to write Senator Waltz but please be professional. It would be counter productive for name calling and foul language. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TampaPete 35 #21 January 13, 2011 Dave – A little business math: If I am going to pay someone $60k a year I need to collect $180k. $60k goes for salary and the other $120k goes to overhead (building rent, electric, water, companies portion of health insurance, paying the cleaning service, professional insurance, etc.). So, $180k per year equates to $30k per DZ. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #22 January 13, 2011 Is there any timeline on when this would come up in the state legislature? I would think that the AOPA would also be interested in fighting this, as it could spill over into similar battles against them. There is a lot more clout available (lobbyist power and constituent numbers) in politics when it involves airplanes. I sure hope the USPA will try to get them in on fighting this. Maybe also other sport aviation activity groups - hangliders and others.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielcroft 2 #23 January 13, 2011 First thing I thought about when seeing this was "why". It all seems so redundant and unnecessary. IMO, this should be the USPA's highest priority. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivetara 0 #24 January 13, 2011 Maybe Bob Dougherty finally pissed off the wrong person. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #25 January 13, 2011 QuoteJan, what is the back story on this bill? Don't know and the IN lawyer that contacted me has no idea either. The lawyer is asking around in the politico circles. Here is the timeline someone asked for. http://www.in.gov/legislative/2391.htm The attorney will write a sample letter for skydivers to send. Should be out sometime this week. USPA, aka Randy Ottinger, was notified before I made the OP. USPA is on top of this. They will probably also encourage IN jumpers to write their representatives. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
