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Thedivingdog

Just bought an Argus - What to do??

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I know, I know, I'm a total idiot. Now that that is over with, please help me figure out what I ned to do. Here's the story:
I recently bought an older rig without an aad. Perusing DZ.com last week I found an '09 argus for sale in the used gear section for $750. At the time I thought it was a good deal[:/] I had NO IDEA about this whole argus fiasco when I bought it!! I called the seller, turns out he works at a well known DZ in Canada. I'm sure he knew all about this when he sold it to me, yet he mentioned nothing at all. I payed via credit card through the DZ, and he told me it's in the mail. Only today did I find out about this whole fiasco form looking at the forums. I feel like an idiot! I also feel like he totally took advantage of me. So what are my options??
A - Suck it up and deal. The seller may have done a douche move, but in the end I'm the idiot that bought it.
B - Call and demand a refund, the thought being he knowingly sold me a product with major issues without informing me.
C - If he refuses to issue a refund, call the credit card company, explain the situation and hope for a charge back.

Any thoughts?

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>Suck it up and deal.

This. You got what you paid for.

>The seller may have done a douche move, but in the end I'm the idiot that bought it.

He didn't do "a douche move." He sold you what you asked for. If he was selling a Cypres with six months of life left on it, and you bought it then said "HEY! I just realized it only has six months of life left on it!" that's your fault, not his. His only responsibility is to honestly represent what he's selling, and give it to you when you send him the money. Sounds like he did that.

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Did you do your homework on this brand of AAD before you bought it?

It's been grounded in poland for over a year, it was grounded in australia and britain in november of last year.

It's not like these issues are just comming out now.

The grounding was lifted By both the APF and BPA in a fairly short time and hopefully Argus will get these issues resolved soon.
Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

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How could he have known there were issues with it last week when you paid for it?

The issues (Im assuming you speaking about the unit being grouned by gear manufacturers) only came to be public knowledge this week.
Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

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B - Call and demand ask for a refund,

and if no satisfaction, then...

C - If he refuses to issue a refund, call the credit card company, explain the situation and hope for a charge back.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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The situation really sucks and I'd be upset about losing that much money too. That's a lot of money! That said, your profile says you've been in the sport for 2 years and on these forums for over a year. I think that's a long enough time for you to be an informed consumer.
She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

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It sucks for you. If you bought from a rigger and a service bulletin or official announcement was made prior to you paying (possibly even having the product shipped) then I think ethically you should be refunded.

If it was all legal and good on the day you paid then I think it was just really bad timing, but certain credit cards provide a warranty as part of their terms and it might be possible to make a claim.
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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>If it was all legal and good on the day you paid then I think it was just really bad
>timing, but certain credit cards provide a warranty as part of their terms and it might
>be possible to make a claim.

Think about what you are suggesting here.

Let's say you sold someone an old Micro Raven 150, cheap, so you could upgrade to a PD143. You finally sell it to someone. You mention it's an old Precision reserve that few people use any more. They're OK with that - they're trying to put together a cheap rig - and they send you the money.

They get it and realize "hey, this is a really old crappy reserve!" They ask for their money back, and you tell them "sorry, I already bought the new reserve."

Should the credit card company then go after you legally to recover the money?

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1. This isn't a new issue with the ARGUS. It is a new episode... of a longer story.

2. You didn't do your homework.

3. Hang on to the ARGUS. It is rather likely that they will solve the cutter problem. Once they do... you get a new cutter and your ARGUS will be as good as it ever was. ;)

4. Learn the lesson from this purchase: caveat emptor!
The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

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>If it was all legal and good on the day you paid then I think it was just really bad
>timing, but certain credit cards provide a warranty as part of their terms and it might
>be possible to make a claim.

Think about what you are suggesting here.

Let's say you sold someone an old Micro Raven 150, cheap, so you could upgrade to a PD143. You finally sell it to someone. You mention it's an old Precision reserve that few people use any more. They're OK with that - they're trying to put together a cheap rig - and they send you the money.

They get it and realize "hey, this is a really old crappy reserve!" They ask for their money back, and you tell them "sorry, I already bought the new reserve."

Should the credit card company then go after you legally to recover the money?



I very nearly included in my first post that by doing what I suggested in contacting the card company you are almost certainly costing the dz or seller.

I think your analogy is slightly off though, in your example the person was forewarned. I also don't think the intent of a credit card guarantee is simply a case of "I don't like what I bought" but rather that something is "fit for purpose". A grounded AAD is not fit for purpose (unless advertised as such).

Personally I would not move the problem onto the seller unless they had deliberately shafted me (e.g. knew that in a weeks time there would be a recall etc). A nice seller may ring the person up and offer to share some of the loss but they aren't obliged to.

Thinking about your example if the seller knew that the person was trying to put together a cheap rig and knowingly sold them a reserve that was grounded I would support making a claim.
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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>A grounded AAD is not fit for purpose.

It's not grounded. Three manufacturers (out of a dozen) said you couldn't use it in their rig. Someone with a Vector might still choose to use it, or might choose to take it out. Their choice - and not something the seller is responsible for.

>Thinking about your example if the seller knew that the person was trying to
>put together a cheap rig and knowingly sold them a reserve that was
>grounded I would support making a claim.

That's sort of the case here. Some riggers won't pack a 20 year old reserve. Some will. Does that mean that old Micro Raven is airworthy or not?

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>A grounded AAD is not fit for purpose.

It's not grounded. Three manufacturers (out of a dozen) said you couldn't use it in their rig. Someone with a Vector might still choose to use it, or might choose to take it out. Their choice - and not something the seller is responsible for.

>Thinking about your example if the seller knew that the person was trying to
>put together a cheap rig and knowingly sold them a reserve that was
>grounded I would support making a claim.

That's sort of the case here. Some riggers won't pack a 20 year old reserve. Some will. Does that mean that old Micro Raven is airworthy or not?



My communication skills suck[:/]

I agree with you 100%, just because you regret your decision you don't go out and claim your money back. Secondly just because a recall happens within a day or week of you buying used equipment doesn't mean you get your money back either (UNLESS a warranty was offered).

My caveat was that if a seller knowingly sells something not fit for purpose, I support getting your money back. I am NOT suggesting that this seller did this.

Your Micro Raven is airworthy if someone will pack it.
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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I did do my homework, or at least I thought I did. All I found was a recall for cutters on pre 2007 models. The one I bought was a 2009, so I thought I was good to go. I also found a good article by Mike G saying all of them are fine.
http://www.chutingstar.com/expertadvice_en/buying-gear/18-aads-which-one-to-buy.html
Not blaming anyone, I'm just saying that I looked into it. I looked at my phone and the first time I talked to the guy was last Wednesday. I bought it on Thursday and it shipped Friday. Were these issues known then?
I have a Vector 2. From what I understand they haven't issued an sb about Argus, yet. If I decide to keep it, should I have it installed anyway, or just wait this out and jump as I have been, without an aad.

As for the examples about buying an older reserve, then saying "wtf?" when it arrives, I don't think that is the same thing. I knew what I was buying at the time. My concern is wether or not these service bulletins were known at the time of purchase, yet not conveyed to me by the seller. That would be more like buying an un-airworthy reserve, yet the seller "forgetting" to mention that it is in fact un-airworthy.

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I looked at my phone and the first time I talked to the guy was last Wednesday. I bought it on Thursday and it shipped Friday. Were these issues known then?



Your timing was right on the borderline of when things started to be "known." There was a USPA email newsletter released on 3/17/11 outlining an issue with a cutter that apparently happened in late February or early March 2011. However, you could consider that newsletter to be the first time the issue would be more generally "known" to the public. Your seller was in Canada, though, so ... he may not have known at that point. And, that newsletter just addressed one particular incident; it was the PIA bulletin (mentioned below) that was the driver for the recalls.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4080756

The PIA bulletin that seems to have sparked all the recalls was dated 3/21/11, after your Argus was purchased and shipped.

http://www.pia.com/TechnicalSpecialPage.htm

Unfortunately, I'd say you made this purchase under some really shitty timing. A few days later, there was a lot more information openly available to the skydiving industry and community. When you made the purchase, there wasn't very much. [:/]
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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I did do my homework, or at least I thought I did. All I found was a recall for cutters on pre 2007 models. The one I bought was a 2009, so I thought I was good to go. I also found a good article by Mike G saying all of them are fine.
http://www.chutingstar.com/expertadvice_en/buying-gear/18-aads-which-one-to-buy.html
Not blaming anyone, I'm just saying that I looked into it. I looked at my phone and the first time I talked to the guy was last Wednesday. I bought it on Thursday and it shipped Friday. Were these issues known then?
I have a Vector 2. From what I understand they haven't issued an sb about Argus, yet. If I decide to keep it, should I have it installed anyway, or just wait this out and jump as I have been, without an aad.

As for the examples about buying an older reserve, then saying "wtf?" when it arrives, I don't think that is the same thing. I knew what I was buying at the time. My concern is wether or not these service bulletins were known at the time of purchase, yet not conveyed to me by the seller. That would be more like buying an un-airworthy reserve, yet the seller "forgetting" to mention that it is in fact un-airworthy.



Since you did your homework and were aware of the cutter recall, then you knew as much as the seller did.

Have you looked at the dates on the current service bulletins? This has all been happening over the last couple days. Unless the dealer has a functioning crystal ball, he would have no way to know about something that hadn't happened yet.

You made an informed decision with the information that was available at the time. These services bulletins came out after you bought it. And now you're accusing the seller of "taking advantage of me" in a "douche move" because you're "sure he knew all about this when he sold it to me" - but you're "not blaming anyone". Nice.

If it were me, I would keep it on the assumption that they will do something to address the cutter issue. They don't have much choice, with so many of the major manufacturers banning their device - they either fix it or they won't sell any. You did get a great deal on it, and that will still be the case once the cutter issue has been resolved.
"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

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NWFlyer - Thanks for those dates, that's where my confusion came from. I wasn't sure what came out when, and if it was before or after I bought it.
Brian - Relax, I'm not accusing anyone. That's why I didn't mention any names. I said he "may" have done a douche move. Turns out he didn't , and I did my research right. It just looks like a a bad case of super shitty timing. I'm still stuck with a paper weight for now, but at least I know I did my homework and wasn't taken advantage of at the time. On a positive note, it hasn't arrived yet, so maybe the mail lost it and I can still get a refund ;)
Thanks everyone for the help.

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Any thoughts?



Timing sucks.
Suck it up.
He had Argus for sale.
You bought Argus.
Argus deemed (currently) unacceptable for use.
You got what you paid for - an Argus.
Not seller's fault if you can't use it.
-Amazed you would even consider trying to go back after him.

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I have a Vector 2. From what I understand they haven't issued an sb about Argus, yet. If I decide to keep it, should I have it installed anyway, or just wait this out and jump as I have been, without an aad.



http://www.unitedparachutetechnologies.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=223&Itemid=42

Answer your question?
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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I would think a dealer of jump equipment would want to make it right. If his name or company name got out on this deal, it could keep a small amount of jumpers from buying from him. Losing this profit may not be worth, not helping this buyer. Think how good he would look to future customers if he gave a responce publicly on DZ.com. A refund or maybe, at least " Store Credit ". That's worth more customers heading to his store.
Life is short ... jump often.

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I would think a dealer of jump equipment would want to make it right. If his name or company name got out on this deal, it could keep a small amount of jumpers from buying from him. Losing this profit may not be worth, not helping this buyer. Think how good he would look to future customers if he gave a responce publicly on DZ.com. A refund or maybe, at least " Store Credit ". That's worth more customers heading to his store.



Make "what" right?

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>I would think a dealer of jump equipment would want to make it right.

Nothing to "make right" in this case. You could have bought a Cypres2, a device that has a better track record. You decided to save some money and buy an Argus. You took the risk; you suffer the consequences when it doesn't pan out for you.

Of course, he might decide to take pity on you and help you out anyway.

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