Spaceland - This CAN'T be true...can it?

[popsjumper 2]

I was reading DZ reviews and saw this.
This just CAN'T be true, can it? I hope not.
Spaceland?

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WARNING Check the weather before you pay if you are out of town, NO REFUNDS due to weather conditions. I had two friends visiting Houston and I took them to spaceland for their first tandem. The weather wasn't great, it was cloudy.

However, they told us very confidently that it usually clears out around noon so we signed in and pay $660. Yes, it cleared out later that morning and we saw nice blue skies for a few hours, but it was still windy. We didn't have idea on the weather conditions required for a safe tandem. It turned out that over 20 knots winds you can't jump. They won't tell you that, as they won't tell you once you pay you won't get your money back!, even if you can't jump due to weather conditions. We waited 7 hours but wind conditions didn't improve and eventually it became cloudy again, they closed the place and gave us rain checks! "SORRY we can't control the weather" was the response of the girl at the desk. Your only option, if you are out of town, is to plan another visit to Houston within 6 months or transfer their f* rain check to another jumper and pay a $50 fee! (if you are lucky to find someone willing to do that without any discount). Later I met a couple in my condo that had the same issue, they had three friends visiting from Mexico that couldn't jump due to the weather, they went back home with spaceland's stupid rain checks after paying almost a 1,000 bucks. So, this is not again the staff, instructors are nice there and very professional, but unfortunately this dishonest and rude way of the owners of making businesses makes the whole place look bad. Some of the guys there looked ashamed that day, it is clear they are just following orders. C'mon owners, your staff knows when it is a bad day to jump, they have weather reports that are normally very accurate, they are very experienced, they have seen bad and good days, they know that over 23 mph winds nobody is going up. We didn't know that. One of the instructors told us that winds usually die by the end of the day, "it is aaaaalways the same" he said. But you ask your staff to keep their mouth shut until you get people signed in. That's low.

You have to be transparent and let people know that it might not be a good day to jump, and let them chose what they want to do with their time and $, instead of trying to be smart and taking people's hard-earned money like this. You give false hopes, made visitors wait the whole day and then come out with this unfair rain check b.s. I'm not bringing friends to spaceland ever again, and I happen to have a lot of friends visiting. Too bad.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[tonyhays 86]

http://www.skydivespaceland.com/policies.php

Tandem Refunds

* Please bring a valid photo ID with you.
* Deposits are refundable until 24 hours before your jump. Cancellations within 24 hours will forfeit the deposit.
* Persons that attend Tandem One class and decide not to skydive immediately following classroom training and prior to boarding aircraft will receive a full refund minus $50.00.
* Once on the airplane, no refunds or transfers are available.
* No refunds on Rain Checks, but they are transferable minus a $50 transfer fee.
* Tandem Level 1 and 2 jumps are transferable (minus $50 fee) but nonrefundable.
* No refunds or transfers on $99 tandem (second tandem purchased the day your first jump is made).
* Gift certificates are transferable, but nonrefundable.
* Video and photos are nonrefundable.
* No double coupons.

Bold emphasis mine. It implies that a refund is available if you don't board the airplane. Looks to me like the customer can dispute this with his CC company, if he paid that way.

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[FanOfFalling 0]

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http://www.skydivespaceland.com/policies.php

Tandem Refunds

* Please bring a valid photo ID with you.
* Deposits are refundable until 24 hours before your jump. Cancellations within 24 hours will forfeit the deposit.
* Persons that attend Tandem One class and decide not to skydive immediately following classroom training and prior to boarding aircraft will receive a full refund minus $50.00.
* Once on the airplane, no refunds or transfers are available.
* No refunds on Rain Checks, but they are transferable minus a $50 transfer fee.
* Tandem Level 1 and 2 jumps are transferable (minus $50 fee) but nonrefundable.
* No refunds or transfers on $99 tandem (second tandem purchased the day your first jump is made).
* Gift certificates are transferable, but nonrefundable.
* Video and photos are nonrefundable.
* No double coupons.

Bold now where I think the refund problem may originate(if there is one).

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Andy, There are alot of DZs that operate that way.

I put money on account in Maine once and then ended up shooting video for a 4-way team all day. Went back at the end of the day and got the no refund speech. Almost had to make an ass of myself to get my $100 back.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Andy, There are alot of DZs that operate that way.

That sucks Donkey.

Our DZ gives weather refunds, even if you get on the plane.

[airtwardo 6]

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Andy, There are alot of DZs that operate that way.

That sucks Donkey.

Our DZ gives weather refunds, even if you get on the plane.

Spaceland is pretty large volume, I've seen several hundred tandems on a summer Saturday...I think they are trying to encourage a return if weathered out with that policy.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Beachbum 0]

I've run into that when visiting another dz ... wanted me to put money on account without refund possibility, so I just put down enough for the jumps I was SURE I would do, and if I'm there again, will do the same, even if it's one at a time ... LOL! The dz in the OP's post took me for one jump when I was a newbie and went to an event there, and had a ticket left over. The dz I learned at sold tickets which were good until used (I believe, as long as price didn't change, in which case you paid the difference), and it never occurred to me that a ticket at another dz could expire. Lo and behold ... next time I was at Spaceland was a long time, and they would not honor my ticket.

As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[bclark 0]

I disagree with the policy, particularly for people who are out of town visitors and may never come back to use their rainchecks.

However, there IS a large banner right behind the manifest counter where all waivers are turned in and all payments are taken that says, "NO REFUNDS, NO EXCEPTIONS". I don't see how you could miss it. It is also in the waiver. (Yeah, I know. You didn't read it, just signed it.) It's on the website too.

So even if you don't agree with the policy, (which I don't) you can't honestly claim that it is not clearly stated.

[bclark 0]

I disagree with the policy, particularly for people who are out of town visitors and may never come back to use their rainchecks.

However, there IS a large banner right behind the manifest counter where all waivers are turned in and all payments are taken that says, "NO REFUNDS, NO EXCEPTIONS". I don't see how you could miss it. It is also in the waiver. (Yeah, I know. You didn't read it, just signed it.) It's on the website too.

So even if you don't agree with the policy, (which I don't) you can't honestly claim that it is not clearly stated.

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Lo and behold ... next time I was at Spaceland was a long time, and they would not honor my ticket.

I worked there for almost 8 years. During that time Spaceland never sold jump tickets. Experienced jumpers put money on an account which, although nonrefundable, never loses value or expires.

[Heatmiser 0]

I didn't have to give them money. They took my debit card to hold. No jump, no charge.

What you say is reflective of your knowledge...HOW ya say it is reflective of your experience. Airtwardo

Someone's going to be spanked! Hopefully, it will be me. Skymama

[skybytch 259]

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Experienced jumpers put money on an account which, although nonrefundable, never loses value or expires.

Trust not to the dz any amount of money you can't afford to lose. If the dz tanks, your money is gone. If a creative bookkeeper decides that you haven't been to the dz recently, your money can magically disappear.

Same thing with tickets. If the dz is sold, your stack of tickets may be instantly worthless.

All of the above situations have happened more than once.

[obelixtim 100]

No refund policy if weather doesn't co operate seems to equate to theft....

Skydiving used to be run by people with a conscience.

Not so much any more.....

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[wmw999 2,121]

They sold event-specific tickets for Skyfest at least one year. And they did have that policy. I don't remember if the tickets were a different price or not.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[pchapman 261]

I can see how a no refund policy will confuse the person coming in off the street.

I wouldn't want to go to an electronics store, pay for a TV, have a clerk go back to the stock room and come back to say, "Sorry, out of stock, it says no refunds, sucker."

The no refund policy has been an issue at one DZ I'm at too. We can understand some reasons for avoiding refunds or 100% refunds in most cases -- you don't want no-shows at the DZ after the staff have been arranged, and people have to expect to drive back again if the weather didn't work out.

The DZO will sometimes relent after enough complaining in certain cases. Or instructors have to catch the tandem students in time to tell them to specifically ask about a potential refund or not having their card charged until the jump.

What else is someone supposed to do if they are a tourist or exchange student, and flying home to another country next week?

[virgin-burner 1]

as a sportjumper, at my dz, if you only come for the day and put down your creditcard, they wont charge anything. we have an account-thing, you pay money into it and jump for as long as it lasts. no refunds tough. but putting your CC down as a guarantee.. i think it's a good thing.

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[airtwardo 6]

Funny thing...there is a guy with my name, with a tandem on the books for several years now.

Every time I go to put money on they ask which me is ME...


Been some confusion before, I guess he's a school teacher down in your area.

Someone called HIM looking for me once, spoke to his wife...

She was quite upset when she learned he was jumping demos!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[theonlyski 3]

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I didn't have to give them money. They took my debit card to hold. No jump, no charge.

Yup, thats how I was used to until I moved to Z-Hills (use paper tickets here)

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[turtlespeed 212]

There are a few companies out there that have "No Refund" Policies -

One on here has been discussed at length - probably not quite enough - but definately at length.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[dqpacker 7]

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I can see how a no refund policy will confuse the person coming in off the street.

I wouldn't want to go to an electronics store, pay for a TV, have a clerk go back to the stock room and come back to say, "Sorry, out of stock, it says no refunds, sucker."

But we don't tell them that they can't jump ever and they are screwed out of their money. We give them a rain check and they can come back anytime they want.

[Divalent 89]

Yeah, a big prominent "no refunds" sign is fine when the buyer actually gets the product they order in the exact condition it was promised. In that case, both sides preformed their duties under the contract, so now a request for a refund would be equivalent to wanting to break the contract. It's another thing where they do what they are supposed to do (hand over the money) don't get anything for reasons that are mostly beyond their comprehension and completely beyond their control.

I'd feel differently if the DZ explained to people that "winds right now have us grounded, but we expect it will clear, but if it doesn't, you only get a raincheck. Do you want to pay now?" (and not by a sign, but by a live person speaking directly to them.) (And a $50 "transfer fee" is bogus. What possibly burden on the DZ is created by another person using the raincheck that causes $50 worth of hassle on the part of the DZ?)

I hope they rethink their policy. It's not good for the industry to have people who were incredibly excited about experiencing the sport come away with the feeling that they were robbed.

[theonlyski 3]

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Funny thing...there is a guy with my name, with a tandem on the books for several years now.

Every time I go to put money on they ask which me is ME...


Been some confusion before, I guess he's a school teacher down in your area.

Someone called HIM looking for me once, spoke to his wife...

She was quite upset when she learned he was jumping demos!

I couldn't believe there was another guy in Houston with MY name too!

Small world that people so close can have the same name. I'm just glad he never got me in trouble with the law

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[Mailed_Fist 0]

From reading this thread, and in my own experience, this is a common practice at US DZs: Client pays, can't jump (weather, wind, whatever) and there is no refund.

Upjumpers buy tickets that aren't usable. Money on accounts goes missing. Deposits aren't refundable.

People are left being unable to use purchased jump assets unless they travel great distances to redeem them.

And the general concensus is, "That's OK. It's how it's done. It's a large-volume facility and they have to do business this way."


Sound familiar? Anyone?

Who's the fox and where is the chicken house?

[billvon 2,400]

>Who's the fox and where is the chicken house?

No one is "guarding" anything. If you don't like it, don't jump there. If you are OK with it, jump there. No foxes or chickens needed.

[NWFlyer 2]

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Trust not to the dz any amount of money you can't afford to lose.

Ding! We have a winner. I have a jump ticket here or there for DZs I don't go to very often, and I have <$50 on account at a couple other places. At any given time I don't have more than a couple hundred dollars worth of tickets at the DZ I jump most frequently. If I lost all of that, I'd be annoyed, but I'd get over it. It's fun to show up somewhere and get the pleasant surprise of a "found" jump or two (because you had money in your account or a ticket buried somewhere) but there's no need to keep a significant amount of your capital tied up in a DZ.

Of course, I guess there are some DZs that do give meaningful enough discounts that buying a large amount of jump tickets might be financially advantageous, but people need to understand that by taking advantage of a discount, they're also taking a risk (think of it as an "investment" that will most likely pay off, but might cause you to lose some or all of what you put in).

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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I can see how a no refund policy will confuse the person coming in off the street.

I wouldn't want to go to an electronics store, pay for a TV, have a clerk go back to the stock room and come back to say, "Sorry, out of stock, it says no refunds, sucker."

The no refund policy has been an issue at one DZ I'm at too. We can understand some reasons for avoiding refunds or 100% refunds in most cases -- you don't want no-shows at the DZ after the staff have been arranged, and people have to expect to drive back again if the weather didn't work out.

The DZO will sometimes relent after enough complaining in certain cases. Or instructors have to catch the tandem students in time to tell them to specifically ask about a potential refund or not having their card charged until the jump.

What else is someone supposed to do if they are a tourist or exchange student, and flying home to another country next week?

The DZO will relent probably because he knows that in Ontario the policy is not legal.