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tatame101

Injury and AFF

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If you had a student that you knew had injured himself a few days/weeks previously (hurt arm, etc), and they couldn't jump for a while due to said injury, if the person showed up at the dropzone and said he was fine to jump (continue with AFF, etc), would you allow them to jump, even though you see they are wincing a bit with the arm, etc? What if the student said they were fine to jump?

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I cant say one thing or another with the limited info provided, but here is one idea:

Throw them on a creeper and make them go through the entire diveflow 4-5 times. That will wear out any student and if you have a feeling they wont be able to perform then you should see evidence of it there. This way you can use this evidence to back whatever decision you make, and just might, get the student to make the right decision on their own.
"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

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Are you referring to a situation which has already happened? Or are you referring to an injured person who wishes to jump in the near future?

You may have trouble getting a direct answer, because people might suspect that your agenda is to advance a legal claim against someone for something that has already occurred.

It is also a very broad question, and posed in the hypothetical. Perhaps if you identify who you are, and specify, in detail, the facts of the particular scenario that occurred (or that you have in mind), that will help people decide whether/how to answer you. So please fill in the details.

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FWIW, for the UK the BPA Declaration of Fitness to Parachute form states that 'in the event of sickness abscence over 20 consecutive days, incapacitiating injury or confirmation of pregnancy, I willl cease to parachute until I have obtained medical certification.'

Self certification doesn't cut it for injuries that have stopped you from jumping for more than 3 weeks.

If it's only a few days though I'd give them the 'the sky isn't going anywhere, there'll always be other days to jump' speech if it's obvious they're still in pain and try to get them to ground themself.

If they insist, then it's their call - you know the saying: If you're going to be stupid you'd better be tough. ;)

You don't say whether you're the instructor, the student, or a 3rd party - a pretty vital bit of info.

If it's one of the latter two, and the student insisted that they were fine to jump and then hurt themself some more, well, they should suck it up and take it as a lesson not to be an idiot.

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I'm the student. Persnally, I think I should be the one to decide if I can jump or not. If the results aren't good, then I am the one to live with the consequence, right?



This is true, but often early in your skydiving career you don't know what you don't know and it can be difficult to assess the risks of the sport in general, and the risks that your injury may cause specifically. Your instructors are not trying to hold you back, they're trying to keep you as safe as possible so that you're around and healthy to skydive another day. If you're being advised not to jump yet, there's probably a good reason for that advice.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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No instructor likes to have a student injured on a jump. Even if the injury was a re-injury of an old one. So you really want to do that to your instructor? Depending on the injury, it can compromise your ability to exercise emergency procedures, or to get away from the airplane in the event of an aircraft problem.

Yes, injured people jump. Most of them live. But just as you want a doctor that you can be honest with, so that you'll get good medical advice, you want to be able to be honest with your instructor -- that way you'll get good advice and teaching from them.

For example, shoulder injuries are more serious than it would seem for skydiving, because they can make either opening your main or executing your emergency procedures more difficult, or slower -- both of those are bad things.

If you can't be honest with your instructor, then either find one you can be honest with (it could be that the instructor you've been working with has only dealt with perfect physical specimens :P), or try another DZ where you can be honest.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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I'm the student. Persnally, I think I should be the one to decide if I can jump or not. If the results aren't good, then I am the one to live with the consequence, right?



Actually no. It's his (or her) decision. If they knew you were injured & allowed you to jump anyway & you got more injured somehow, they could be held liable, even if you don't think they're liable. Like someone else said, "the sky will still be there". Don't risk further injury.

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I'm the student. Persnally, I think I should be the one to decide if I can jump or not. If the results aren't good, then I am the one to live with the consequence, right?



Nope. Up to a point this does apply to experienced jumpers. But students are the responsibility of their instructors.

If you were any kind of seriously hurt over here, and didn't have your C-license yet, you would be asked to get a new medical. Doc says you're ok to jump? Then you can.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

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I'm the student. Persnally, I think I should be the one to decide if I can jump or not. If the results aren't good, then I am the one to live with the consequence, right?



Thanks for the extra info.

In that case, I'd be suggesting to you that you're doing something that is inherently dangerous, and that you'd be adding more danger to that by jumping in something other than tip top shape. Does that really seem like a good idea? ;)

Until you're qualified the job of an instructor is to look out for you, and that's what they're doing. Believe me, it's not about holding you back - instructors love seeing students progress!

There are other things you can be doing on the dz rather than jumping that your injury won't stop you doing. Learn to pack. Learn how all your gear works and how to do flightline checks.

Just don't aggravate your injury more by pushing it. It'd suck to keep yourself out of jumping for longer than you need to! :)

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I'm the student. Persnally, I think I should be the one to decide if I can jump or not. If the results aren't good, then I am the one to live with the consequence, right?



Wrong, that is the tail wagging the dog. The reason you have an instructor is so you can survive the learning period. You need to learn that the consequences of what you do almost always affect other people. In skydiving if you choose to ignore advice given by more experienced jumpers you can end up not just hurt but dead.

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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I'm the student. Persnally, I think I should be the one to decide if I can jump or not. If the results aren't good, then I am the one to live with the consequence, right?



Or "not live" with the consequence, (not to be a wise ass).

If anything at all will possibly hinder your ability to perform your EPs I wouldn't jump.

Im new too, I wont jump if im the least bit tired. I've turned
around a couple times from my hour commute to the DZ because I thought I was too tired to jump. I want to be able to jump again, the safety of myself and others is what's important to me.

When you have a better idea of your capabilities (more experience) I think you can make a sound call if your able to
jump with a minor injury. For now I wouldn't being new to skydiving.

Be safe, hope your arm feels better, good luck with AFF.

Don't wind up in the incidents forum, I hate when I see "1NEW".

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Whats the rush? Is there a reason why you can not wait till you are at 100%? It would be better to wait till you fully healed then possibly putting yourself in a situation where you end up injured for the rest of your life. Skydiving is not a race.
Speedracer~I predict that Michael Jackson will rise from the dead.
And that a giant radioactive duck will emerge from the ocean and eat Baltimore.

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You're not the only one to live with the consequences.
In general, one of the problems with sports injuries is that people won't let them heal. This causes more downtime in the long run than if you just rest and rehab until you're back to normal.
If you're worried about having to repeat a jump from being out more than 30 days, don't worry about it. Every jump adds one to the logbook.
You don't have to outrun the bear.

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I'm the student. Persnally, I think I should be the one to decide if I can jump or not. If the results aren't good, then I am the one to live with the consequence, right?



Hardly! If you die and the AFFI survives ... the AFFI has to "live" with the consequenses. Those consequences can be emotional or legal/economic. You may think that you should be free to make this decision... but your surviving relatives may disagree.

The AFF instructor is in the air with you to make it more likely that you will survive the jump. If your injury is going to make that significantly more difficult... your instructor certainly can choose to not jump with you! If your injury will make it significantly less likely that you can take care of yourself after main deployment, the instructor is absolutely right to not jump with you.

You can assert your right to jump all you want... you have NO right to force your instructor to jump with you! Of course, if you are still in AFF... no instructor... no jump.

Go to the DZ and watch landings, learn to pack, sit in on the AFF briefings, ask questions about the stuff in the SIM which isn't clear to you. If the rigger is packing a reserve... see if you can watch.
The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

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I'm the student. Persnally, I think I should be the one to decide if I can jump or not. If the results aren't good, then I am the one to live with the consequence, right?



Are you really that selfish? Do you really know more than an instructor?

Seriously, if youre that dead set on it, fake a log book, go to a different DZ, rent a rig and teach yourself. [scarcasm please dont]

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Seriously, if youre that dead set on it, fake a log book, go to a different DZ, rent a rig and teach yourself.



+1

....Kidding.

I can respect that you are willing to accept the consequences of your own behavior even if those consequences are as dire as death...or even worse life long paralasis. :S

With some time and experience you will be able to see how your actions affect others. While I have no problem with putting myself in sketchy spots I always try and give consideration to how others my be affected and I'm sure you give try to give others the same consideration.

If something happened to you a world of shit would reign down on other people at the DZ (namely your AFFI).... So chill.

Like someone said, the skies going to be there. In time if you want to start assuming more risk that's up to you, but hopefully you will have a little more experience and begin to see how things in skydive that seem to pose no risk to anyone other than you infact do pose risks to others.

Have fun. Be safe.

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I'm the student. Persnally, I think I should be the one to decide if I can jump or not. If the results aren't good, then I am the one to live with the consequence, right?


Nope.

I've got a simple test for a lot of things in skydiving. I imagine myself sitting in a witness stand, being grilled by a lawyer about anything I might have done with a student. If I can tell the truth with a straight face, then good.

In a situation like this? Sitting in front of a judge? Trying to tell the judge that even thought I saw some guy wincing in pain with basic motions, that he was fit to jump? Nope, couldn't do that with a straight face.

So I wont' do it. Easy decision.

_Am
__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

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If you had a student that you knew had injured himself a few days/weeks previously (hurt arm, etc), and they couldn't jump for a while due to said injury, if the person showed up at the dropzone and said he was fine to jump (continue with AFF, etc), would you allow them to jump, even though you see they are wincing a bit with the arm, etc? What if the student said they were fine to jump?



No. It's not right to expect to jump, and it's a selfish thing to be willing to put that burden on your instructor. In your case, your instructors are aware of your injuries, and they get the benefit of deciding *with* you whether you can jump or not. It's a team thing...:P

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then I am the one to live with the consequence, right?



Not entirely. As a student, you're putting an instructor at risk both for their safety and liability, not to mention their moral dilemma.

You're renting gear and flying in aircraft owned by someone under the "care and supervision" of their student program, and while the waiver says what it says, what really matters is how the jury views it.

So in reality there are others who have to deal with the consequences, and therefore they are not going to take someone who they feel is less than 100% ready.

The good side is the sky isn't going anywhere soon, so when you're better you can jump right back into things. :)
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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I had a student at the beginning of last season who dislocated his shoulder on his second jump. It was his second jump of the day, on the first he had
'tweaked' his shoulder a bit, but he did some practice pulls and ran thru the routine a couple of times and seemed all right for a second jump. A few seconds after exit, just after we'd both dropped the shoulder grips, his shoulder dislocated and he ended up floating up and flipping on to his back - real quick.

Got him on his belly again after the left side instructor dropped off, but never really got back under total control (we had started to spin while he was on his back, and continued after he was flipped onto his stomach, altho' not as fast). In fact when it was time to dump he couldn't with his shoulder, I think he actually reached across with his good arm and pulled the bad arm against his body, ended up going head down, and I had to dump him myself.

Of course I had no idea what had happened other than that everything had gone to shit all of a sudden....

Did surprisingly well on canopy control, considering he had to use one arm only to do everything.

Afterwards I blamed myself for agreeing to let him do the second jump, even tho' he admitted he'd 'tweaked' the shoulder on the first. But he'd paid for the whole program up front, was a really active guy, and there was sort of a culture of 'get it done real quick' with the pff/aff program (that was the big selling point between it and the traditional program at this dz).

I seem to recall that he later admitted he had had problems with the shoulder before, but hadn't thought it would be an issue.

I told the dzo and the other pff instructor that he should probably have a doctor;s note if he came back, but I never saw him the rest of the season.
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

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I would give you the opportunity to make the smart decision on your own. If you couldn't or wouldn't do that after I explained what and why, then...

Nope. No way in hell am I going to let you jump with potentially life-threatening injuries...be it MY life or YOUR life that would be threatened.

No-brainer decision for me and I have no problem with that.

On top of that, you would have put yourself on my "Watch Out For This Less-Than-Smart Guy" list.
:|
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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I'm the student. Persnally, I think I should be the one to decide if I can jump or not. If the results aren't good, then I am the one to live with the consequence, right?



No. If I was your instructor, I have to save you if you don't. If it's due to a known injury that hinders your ability, I'm being negligent. If you prove you can perform well, we get on the plane. If you're noticeably nursing an injury, chances are you're not proving what is necessary.

Some students often require a lot of assistance when they're of sound mind and body. If you're struggling on the ground, it's simply dumb to force it.

Now, you haven't said what your injury is, you've offered minimal information. What is it? I'm easy to work with and most instructors are. We usually don't just make someone stand down without good reason.

As an instructor, I have to determine if I'm going to allow you to jump. It's not just your jump. I have watched students who's performance prior to putting their gear on was top notch. One instance, when we went over it at the mock up fully geared up, the student started rocking back and forth like a child and could not perform the dive flow. He was panicking. Cleverly we had him decide to stand down and try again later.... which he did the next day. No panic attacks.

I've also made the decision myself. Taking someone in the air is always interesting. Taking someone in the air with a known problem that will heal in a few weeks is foolish.

What is your injury? Arms need to work to skydive well. They must steer your body, they must help pull, they must steer the parachute and flare.

I hope you get to go up soon, but understand it's not just you. You and I are skydivers. The difference is time. I have a lot of time in the sport. Should you choose to , then I wish you to get as much time as you want.

Good luck
Hope that helps
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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