Raising minimum deployment altitude

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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Fine then. If people go in - fuck 'em - they deserved it.

We are talking about giving people a little more time when things don't do exactly as planned.

HELLO!!! You have the right to pull whenever you want in most situation. Feel free to pull at 3000ft or higher when ever you like and avoid the situation that require otherwise. Why do you feel the need to control others to your standards or whims?

[matthewcline 0]

So it is a number of flaps issue more than a cutter location issue.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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I've heard from a few people that there may be a change in minimum deployment altitides. Changing things up to 3000'

what are your thoughts on this?

It'd be lousy for guys doing classic accuracy or other hop-and-pops under traditional squares. I don't need more than 1850' to be open in time for the BSR specified 1800' emergency procedure decision altitude but am currently stuck with 2050' passes.

Pulling at 3000' or higher is a fine idea with canopies that usually snivel for 800', where you might have 2-3X the final approach speed of other canopies and want space to either out-float or pass people who opened earlier, and/or you're going to eat 1000' for a predictable pattern after flying half a mile to the drop zone.

Currently you're free to do just that except on certain big-ways where you'd be better off just using gear more appropriate for the jump.

[jtnesbitt 0]

I just fear one day we are going to regulate ourselves out of a sport. We should do whats right because its smart not because we have to.

-I dump at 3k because I want the time.
-I am either the first canopy down or the last canopy down because i dont trust people under canopy
-I dont land in the main landing area (most of the time) but go for the student because again i dont trust people under canopy.

I dont need people telling me to do this, i do it because i have determined it is in my best interest.

"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

[mirage62 0]

+100

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[DocPop 1]

I see what you guys are saying about trying to save people from themselves and over-regulation etc.

I guess it is better to leave people to make their own stupid mistakes if that's what they're going to do. I am still going to pull at 4,000' when I can and hopefully that won't bother anybody.

I know it gets up my nose when the canopy nazis start talking about wingloading/downsizing regulations so I should not be a hypocrite.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[billvon 2,380]

>I am still going to pull at 4,000' when I can and hopefully that won't bother anybody.

No problem. Just make sure that you let people on the airplane know so they can plan where to put you. (Also let manifest know during busier jump days so the risk of close calls can be mitigated.)

[DocPop 1]

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>I am still going to pull at 4,000' when I can and hopefully that won't bother anybody.

No problem. Just make sure that you let people on the airplane know so they can plan where to put you. (Also let manifest know during busier jump days so the risk of close calls can be mitigated.)

Of course. Although we tend to rely on horizontal separation at my regular DZ.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[airtwardo 6]

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I just fear one day we are going to regulate ourselves out of a sport. We should do whats right because its smart not because we have to.

-I dump at 3k because I want the time.
-I am either the first canopy down or the last canopy down because i dont trust people under canopy
-I dont land in the main landing area (most of the time) but go for the student because again i dont trust people under canopy.

I dont need people telling me to do this, i do it because i have determined it is in my best interest.

Thus plainly illustrating the difference between a Skydiver....and someone who skydives.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[billvon 2,380]

>Although we tend to rely on horizontal separation at my regular DZ.

Right - but there are some places where loads are spaced so tightly that if you pull at 4000 and have a big canopy, you may be at 2000 feet when the next load drops above you. That would be bad - and that's why there are sometimes rules on how high you can pull. This used to be a big deal at the World Freefall Convention in its heyday, since loads would sometimes use the same jump run every 2 minutes. Nowadays it's only really an issue at the bigger boogies (i.e. Eloy over Christmas.)

[skybytch 259]

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Although we tend to rely on horizontal separation at my regular DZ.

Far better to work toward every jumper maintaining both horizontal and vertical separation. By working to maintain both horizontal and vertical separation throughout the canopy flight, you can be pretty sure that no one will be on downwind, base or final (or at the initiation point or mid-swoop) at the same time you are, thus reducing the risk of being in a canopy collision in the pattern. Likewise, the possibility of a canopy collision prior to entering the pattern is also reduced - not only because you've succeeded in creating or maintaining separation, but also because doing so forces you to keep your head on a swivel.

[jonstark 8]

You cannot mandate my opening altitude. I will decide.

If by participating in a "big way" the team needs me to open at a specified altitude I will do so.

Nobody else is gonna tell me where or when to open.

jon

[Ron 7]

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IF the current AAD settings are a safely problem, wouldn't just setting them a bit higher, say 1000'...kinda 'automatically' raise the recommended opening altitude?

It would cause a bunch of two outs and then eventually people would modify their behavior... Just like when AAD's became popular. Then, someone would claim that raising the AAD firing altitude again would save more lives..... ETC.

The point is the AAD is a LAST chance. Like a hail Mary pass.

Too be totally honest, we could raise the min pull altitude to 4k and set AAD's for 2K and we would save tons of lives.

But the idea is, and should remain IMO, that the AAD is a LAST CHANCE. If you are needing it, you have screwed up several times already.

A MUCH better focus, IMO, would be to work on better training and using better judgment to avoid the need for AAD's.

To the person who refused a slot on a bigway because it was below her pull altitude.... BRAVO!!!!! Way to use your head and not succumb to peer pressure!

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ridestrong 1]

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If they cant make the decision on their own without someone telling them to then SKYDIVING IS NOT FOR THEM. Seriously. WTF ever happened to being responsible for our own actions? If someone needs an organization to tell them what decisions to make regarding their own safety because common sense just isnt enough then please get the hell out of my sport.

Think about it this way... if there were no speed limits any where, half the people on the road would be driving 120 mph every where they went. Endangering the lives of everyone else around them.

All I'm saying is that if there were NO rules or regulations we'd probably have a lot more people doing a lot more stupid shit a lot of the time.


I should add that I am not in favor of raising the min pull alti.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[fasted3 0]

How many people have been taken oiut by a low puller?

But what do I know?

[billvon 2,380]

>If someone needs an organization to tell them what decisions to make regarding their
>own safety because common sense just isnt enough then please get the hell out of my
>sport.

There are an awful lot of recent AFF grads who you would want "out of the sport" in that case.

Rules work as a replacement for experience until you get enough experience to make good decisions. (Yes, even some people with experience make bad decisions, but as a whole people tend to get better.)

[jonstark 8]

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How many people have been taken oiut by a low puller?

The problem now is that Death Comes From Above.
I used to think pulling low was a strategy to avoid conflict in the landing area but not any more. Even if I pull low the high-pulling, snivelly-opening swoopers still get to the landing area at the same time as me. Dammit!

jon

[airtwardo 6]

Suck it down LOWER!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[mjosparky 3]

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Fine then. If people go in - fuck 'em - they deserved it.

We are talking about giving people a little more time when things don't do exactly as planned.

I was able to find 31 fatalities from 2004 to 2010 that would fit the scenario “low cutaway/low reserve. That’s about 6% of the total for that time period. I was able to find 133 that would fit the scenario “low turn from 2004 to 2010. That’s about 30% of the total.

You want make a rule (BSR) to save people by making them open higher and have more time before impacts.

You have 200 jumps over a 4 year period of time. But you jump a Katana 135 loaded at 1.56:1. PD states that this canopy is not for novice or intermediate canopy pilots. Even if we stretch it and say you were advanced you are loaded 30+ lbs over published maximums. “Katana is intended for experienced canopy pilots.” PD Do you think we should make a BSR enforcing WL to protect jumpers who have mad skills from killing themselves? I don’t think so.

Sparky

FYI: After reading some of your posts you would probably take less heat if you spent more listening and learning. Less time handing out jewels of wisdom.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[turtlespeed 212]

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Fine then. If people go in - fuck 'em - they deserved it.

We are talking about giving people a little more time when things don't do exactly as planned.

I was able to find 31 fatalities from 2004 to 2010 that would fit the scenario “low cutaway/low reserve. That’s about 6% of the total for that time period. I was able to find 133 that would fit the scenario “low turn from 2004 to 2010. That’s about 30% of the total.

You want make a rule (BSR) to save people by making them open higher and have more time before impacts.

You have 200 jumps over a 4 year period of time. But you jump a Katana 135 loaded at 1.56:1. PD states that this canopy is not for novice or intermediate canopy pilots. Even if we stretch it and say you were advanced you are loaded 30+ lbs over published maximums. “Katana is intended for experienced canopy pilots.” PD Do you think we should make a BSR enforcing WL to protect jumpers who have mad skills from killing themselves? I don’t think so.

Sparky

FYI: After reading some of your posts you would probably take less heat if you spent more listening and learning. Less time handing out jewels of wisdom.

You forgot to include the Mad Skillz factor multiplier of at least 3 when you do the final equasions.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[SkyTango 0]

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I agree that minimum deployment altitudes should be raised to 3000'

So are you saying that on those nice and cloudy days with cloud cover @ 2500 you don’t want to jump?

JC

If you woke up breathing, congratulations!
You get another chance.

[hcsvader 1]

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I agree that minimum deployment altitudes should be raised to 3000'

So are you saying that on those nice and cloudy days with cloud cover @ 2500 you don’t want to jump?

JC

Ha, Haven't been on a dropzppne recently that has the lift capacity for that.

Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

[danielcroft 2]

Raising pull altitudes is a waste of time.

I pull between 3 & 3.5 if I'm on a working jump. I pull higher if traffic will allow because I want to fly my canopy but I'd pull at 2.5 without any problem. I'd start to become less interested in jumping if people were telling me I had to pull at 2. If I get a canopy that snivels forever, I need to open higher.

To me, raising minimum pack opening won't solve the problem because the minimum pack opening altitude isn't the issue now. The issue is that we're all human and make mistakes. You can't stop people making mistakes.

My only suggestion would be to try to educate people on what the issue is and why they might think about opening higher and under what circumstances they may change their opening altitude. The Perris fatality is definitely doing that, especially considering the jumper's experience, ratings and time in the sport. The jumper's experience shouldn't make people think the rules are broken, it should be a reminder of what we should all already know: anyone can die in this sport, even when you do everything right.

[hcsvader 1]

I realized that although I have been doing alot of jumping the past year where minimum deployment altitudes are very often around 2500. I haven't once been told that deploying at this altitude may change my EPs. Honestly the thought never really occured to me. No one ever mentioned that if I spend an extra few seconds trying to clear my airspace that I could quickly find myself below my hard deck.

There has been briefings about about break off procedures and what to after opening to avoid collisions etc but not once have I heard a LO talk about how EPs can change when pulling lower. Yes I know that this is basic stuff but I honestly never thought about it when I did a 40 way camp with airspeed last year when I had 180 jumps. I was asked if I was comfortable with pulling at 2500 and say, ya sure why not. No further discussion took place about canopy opening times and what altitude I might find myself under a malfunctioning canopy.

Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

[Rugby82 0]

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Fine then. If people go in - fuck 'em - they deserved it.

We are talking about giving people a little more time when things don't do exactly as planned.

I was able to find 31 fatalities from 2004 to 2010 that would fit the scenario “low cutaway/low reserve. That’s about 6% of the total for that time period. I was able to find 133 that would fit the scenario “low turn from 2004 to 2010. That’s about 30% of the total.

You want make a rule (BSR) to save people by making them open higher and have more time before impacts.

You have 200 jumps over a 4 year period of time. But you jump a Katana 135 loaded at 1.56:1. PD states that this canopy is not for novice or intermediate canopy pilots. Even if we stretch it and say you were advanced you are loaded 30+ lbs over published maximums. “Katana is intended for experienced canopy pilots.” PD Do you think we should make a BSR enforcing WL to protect jumpers who have mad skills from killing themselves? I don’t think so.

Sparky

FYI: After reading some of your posts you would probably take less heat if you spent more listening and learning. Less time handing out jewels of wisdom.

You forgot to include the Mad Skillz factor multiplier of at least 3 when you do the final equasions.

He's lucky to live in the US. Here in the Netherlands you aren't allowed to jump a Katana with less then 700 jumps.

Blue skies!