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nigel99

Advice on DZ.com

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>Is it wrong, as a newbie, to use DZ.com as a sounding board for my fears
>and concerns with skydiving?

Not at all! Chat about whatever you like. Just don't expect good solutions to your problems here.

There was a place in Massachusetts (closed now) that was a combination bookstore/restaurant/bar. I used to like that place because you could get a beer, talk to the bartender, talk to other people there (most of whom were really into books) and browse around. They had books on almost everything, from aviation to eastern medicine to sociology.

I often think of DZ.com like that place. You can find almost any information you want, but it might not be valid; it might be some crazy self-help mumbo jumbo instead of reality. You can talk to some guy at the bar and get his opinion on things. You can get support if you're depressed and want someone to talk to.

But it would be a very bad idea to read a book on the private pilot rating, talk to the bartender about how to fly, then decide you're ready to get in an airplane.

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I'm not going to name names because I don't want to be accused of making a "personal attack" but the fact that there are people on this forum with a couple dozen jumps and THOUSANDS of posts (many of them in skydiving-related threads) is exactly why new jumpers should avoid taking any sort of advice from DZ until they have enough experience to know whose posts to ignore. New skydivers are overwhelmed with information and resources and may see a post by someone with 5000 posts and assume that gives them credibility when they actually don't know shit about skydiving.
http://www.mixcloud.com/prajna
http://vimeo.com/avidya

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I'm not going to name names because I don't want to be accused of making a "personal attack" but the fact that there are people on this forum with a couple dozen jumps and THOUSANDS of posts (many of them in skydiving-related threads) is exactly why new jumpers should avoid taking any sort of advice from DZ until they have enough experience to know whose posts to ignore. New skydivers are overwhelmed with information and resources and may see a post by someone with 5000 posts and assume that gives them credibility when they actually don't know shit about skydiving.



I don't think the posted jump numbers count. They aren't audited and anyone can drop a D license and number of jumps in that gives them so called credibility. Post count is totally irrelevant (but you already know that)
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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Right and that's another reason beginners shouldn't be taking anything literally on this forum and running everything by their instructors. They could be taking advice from someone with 50 jumps and 5000 posts, or someone whose profile says they have 5000 jumps when they actually have 50. And when you are a total beginner at something you don't have the mental framework to determine what is reliable information.
http://www.mixcloud.com/prajna
http://vimeo.com/avidya

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So it is your assertation that nothing on DZ.COM is reliable?



It is less reliable than Wikipedia. The bad information is sometimes corrected, but not removed.

It can be a good read on *basic* information... But technical details should be gotten from a much more reliable source.

You mentioned. SB's.... Well, call the company and get the info directly from the source.

If I 'cited' an FAR, it would be in your best interest to read the FAR for yourself and not assume that my take on it was correct.

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Or is it every rigger/instructor at a dropzone is a more valuable resource than DZ.COM?



Well, am I a rigger? Do I have an AFF rating? Do you *know* this, or are you assuming my profile info is correct? Am I a guy with 5000 jumps and lots of medals, or am I a guy with 5000 jumps of hop n pops?

Fact is... That you do not know anything about me.... The physical people you know are a much better resource than some guy with a cool username and a maybe false profile.

That does not say that good information cannot be found here.... But there is little chance that I would just trust it to be true.... Just like Wiki can give you a good idea, it should not be used as the final word.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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I've been paid decent money as a canopy coach to fix what AFF-I's and USPA Coaches have "taught" for "canopy control."



Is that the fault of the instructor or the fault of the student? If you didn't observe the instruction, how do you know what was or was not taught? It's not unusual for novice jumpers to have forgotten many things that they were taught as students, or to have absorbed incorrect information from other jumpers (IRL or online).



Mostly it has been stuff that has been taught with wholly incorrect information that has been taught in person or stuff that wasn't covered well enough to give the former student a fundamental understanding of the topic. In a few cases I'm convenience it was the person trying to learn. In a few other cases they were unwilling to learn from people around their DZ until they ended up having to come to me (as in "you're grounded unless you go get coaching from Dave and you change your behavior").
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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I've used dz.com a lot (well there's your problem!) for gathering information but as someone who doesn't consider themselves an expert, I vet that information against experienced people's opinions who I know and trust.

There are different types of information you can gather from dz.com. Some of that information - objective/technical - is relatively easy to verify by going to the original source so, you can take it on face value until it's important and then verify. As an example, a friend asked me about adding an RSL to his rig that had never had one. I looked up on here and found something but because it was actually important and needed information, I called the manufacturer and asked them. He could easily have done it himself but I was curious so just did it for him. He took that information to his rigger (who confirmed without calling the manufacturer - there, two reputable sources) and that was that.

One of the other types of information is more subjective like "why can't I stop a turn" or "how come when I land I flare too high" or (in my case) "why do I suck at skydiving". In all of those cases, you're actually going to need someone instructing you in person like DSE said. When you're dealing with these kinds of issues, any advice you get is more in terms of the possibilities and in reading that information you'll get a wide understanding of the possible causes (keeping in mind that many people could be telling you something that's not accurate without realizing that they're wrong) that you could keep in the back of your head for when you talk to your instructor/coach/etc. For me, in those instances, I'd take the the scenarios that I felt were plausible (keeping in mind, I'm no expert either) and discuss them with my coach or instructor to get their take on it.

A lot of what I read, I consider completely hypothetical because, it's not directly relevant to a current situation, it's not important, not affecting me or is obviously silly (but may still be possible). Those things I file in the back of my head to have a think about but pretty much discard them until something related comes up in future.

This post falls into the second category, which you might summarize as YMMV. ;)

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I'm a newbie AFF student and a lot of times I post on here to vent or sometimes see if others have gone through the same issues I have. I know that with mechanical and technical issues and questions, I should direct those to my instructors.

Is it wrong, as a newbie, to use DZ.com as a sounding board for my fears and concerns with skydiving? Just curious. I really do love the sport and my instructors have been excellent with helping me out.

I don't know where else to talk about skydiving or my worries and concerns, when I am not at the DZ. I can't talk about it with my friends or family. Most of my friends think I am nuts for doing this.



The best answer for that would be "It depends". You have asked questions spanning a wide range of issues. Technical question, procedural questions, medical questions, "sociability" questions (for lack of a better term), "In your experience" questions (again for lack of a better term).

The answers you have gotten have ranged from "ask you instructors (or doctor)" to fairly detailed information on peoples experiences or on the general customs and behaviors you will see.

If you look back at how the different types of questions were answered, and the differences in the answers, you should have a good idea of which kinds of questions are "better" on here.

You are absolutely correct that friends or family won't understand what you are doing or (especially) why.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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And when you are a total beginner at something you don't have the mental framework to determine what is reliable information.



I disagree with this entirely.

I don't even have an A license yet, but I know that a manufacturer is likely a more reliable source of information than some random person on DZ.com. I have the mental capacity to apply logic to things I read here to determine if they make sense. I have the maturity to take those questions to my instructor or experienced people that I trust if I need further clarification.

I'm sure y'all have seen your fair share of idiot student skydivers. In case you haven't noticed though, there are also idiot experienced skydivers, instructors, pilots, packers, etc.

Just because someone's new at something doesn't mean they're gullible and will believe anything they're told. In fact, that's quite an insult to assume that someone that hasn't been skydiving as long as you have lacks "mental framework".

Skill is one thing. Common sense is another.

EDIT: I'm not trying to say that ALL new skydivers have the capacity to make good decisions about the information they get. I'm just saying, don't lump us all into one group.

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And when you are a total beginner at something you don't have the mental framework to determine what is reliable information.



I disagree with this entirely.

I don't even have an A license yet, but I know that a manufacturer is likely a more reliable source of information than some random person on DZ.com. I have the mental capacity to apply logic to things I read here to determine if they make sense. I have the maturity to take those questions to my instructor or experienced people that I trust if I need further clarification.

I'm sure y'all have seen your fair share of idiot student skydivers. In case you haven't noticed though, there are also idiot experienced skydivers, instructors, pilots, packers, etc.

Just because someone's new at something doesn't mean they're gullible and will believe anything they're told. In fact, that's quite an insult to assume that someone that hasn't been skydiving as long as you have lacks "mental framework".

Skill is one thing. Common sense is another.

EDIT: I'm not trying to say that ALL new skydivers have the capacity to make good decisions about the information they get. I'm just saying, don't lump us all into one group.



All you say is true, but also remember it's the innerweb and in the interest of safety...it's usually better to consider the lowest common denominator when handing out advise. ;)










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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I have the mental capacity to apply logic to things I read here to determine if they make sense.


When he mentioned "mental framework", I think he meant a foundation of knowledge...not a mental capacity.

Being new at anything, one doesn't have the foundation necessary on which base intelligent decisions. Logic is one thing, knowledge-based logic is another.

For example, based on the knowledge one has at the time, one may reach a logical conclusion only to find out later, after having gained more knowledge, that the original conclusion was wrong.

I think that was all he was trying to say..and yes, I may be wrong on that but the explanation stands as a logical conclusion.
:D:D;)


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In case you haven't noticed though, there are also idiot experienced skydivers, instructors, pilots, packers, etc.


Oh, how unfortunately true.
[:/]

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Just because someone's new at something doesn't mean they're gullible and will believe anything they're told.


You are correct with the caveat that newness makes it more likely...simply because one lacks the foundation of knowledge that filters out the BS from the real.

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I'm just saying, don't lump us all into one group.


Yes, there are exceptions to every rule.

Regardless of experience level, there are both ignorant AND stupid skydivers.

Ignorant - doesn't have the knowledge
Stupid - has the knowledge but chooses to ignore it.

Ignorance can be easily fixed, stupid is hard to fix...very hard, and usually only comes after a personal close-call or an incident.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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I disagree with this entirely.



Does not matter... It still applies in most cases.

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I have the mental capacity to apply logic to things I read here to determine if they make sense. I have the maturity to take those questions to my instructor or experienced people that I trust if I need further clarification.



Every single person likes to think they are smarter than average.

Every single person likes to think they are more skilled than average.

Almost every single person that died in this sport thought they could handle what they were doing (suicides not counted).

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Just because someone's new at something doesn't mean they're gullible and will believe anything they're told.



No, but it does mean that they lack the experience to separate the good information from the bad without outside assistance.

Again, I know you think you are smarter than the average person.... And you might be.... But that does not mean that 99% of the population is as well.

AND it does not mean you know enough to know what you don't know.

Hell, when I had 500 jumps I thought I knew it all... Now with 5,000 jumps I realize all that I don't know.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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If I've given off the impression that I feel that I'm an above average student, or that I know everything about skydiving, I apologize. My skills and knowledge are average at best, really. I have a LOT to learn, and I'm not afraid to admit it. I ask for advice on a very frequent basis, both on and off the DZ.

There are two points that I'm trying to get across.

1.) Many "students" are conscientious enough to take what they read on DZ.com with a grain of salt and run it by a trusted party before they make any changes to their gear, habits, or procedures. Not all "students" are going to run out and immediately try something they read in a YouTube comment or somewhere else on the internet. Most "students" I know have the common sense to check information against multiple trusted sources. WE'RE NOT ALL IMPRESSIONABLE YOUNG CHILDREN THAT WILL DO ANYTHING THAT ANYBODY TELLS US TO DO.

2.) Obviously, anyone of any skill level can post anything they want on the internet, so everything you read on here should be considered carefully and taken with a grain of salt. There is plenty of misinformation, but... DROPZONE.COM DOES STILL CONTAIN GREAT INFORMATION FOR SKYDIVERS, whether you like it or not.

When it all comes down to it, being a student doesn't stop when you get your A license or any other license. Anytime you're presented with information that's new to you, whether it's a new style of gear, a new procedural best-practice, a new skill or discipline, you should give it a lot of consideration before you make it a part of your skydiving. For instance, you run into some stranger on the dropzone raving about their new magnetic d-bag. Before you go buy one and starting jumping with it, it'd be wise to talk to your rigger or someone you trust about it and any effects it may have on packing procedure or safety. Being prudent in this way isn't something that you should expect from students, it's something you should expect from any skydiver with a sense of self-preservation.

This "us vs them" mentality, this "I have XXXXX jumps so I know everything, you only have XXX so you know nothing" attitude doesn't seem productive. It's one thing to look out for the less experienced and help keep them on the right path, it's another to tell them they have no ability to think for themselves and pound it into their head that they're too slow to understand.

I guess I'm just tired of seeing everyone assume that because you're a student, you're going to be out there on a suicide mission until someone more experienced comes to save your life. Believe it or not, most of us like jumping enough to want to be able to do it tomorrow. Personally, I'm far to stubborn to leave skydiving because of this attitude, but there ARE people that will learn better from a mentor, not an asshole.

My guess is that experience and skill is gradually developed. With that comes the truth that it develops quicker for some than others. Maybe I'm wrong though, and there is some magical thing that happens to every jumper that transitions from "student" to A license holder that makes them immediately able to know exactly what they're doing (at which point they are eligible to receive advice from dz.com).

If not, can someone please let me know what jump number or license is the threshold between "go ask your instructor" and "here's what I think"? I'd like to get there as quick as I can, so that I'll be allowed to participate in conversations without my instructor watching the screen.

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By the way, you don't have XXX jumps. You have
X (9) and 7 more.



lol, that was a generic reference, not one specific to me.

Like I said, I have thick skin. I can handle the criticism.

I've come up in other hobbies and occupations that were dangerous in nature, and I've never seen this dynamic be as strong as it is on dz.com. I just hate to see others have to deal with it. I feel like there are more productive and proactive ways to act. If a student asks an honest question, there's nothing wrong with giving them an honest answer. "This is my opinion on it, but run it by your instructor" seems productive. "You're stupid for trying to learn on the internet, go ask your instructor." does not. If you wouldn't do that to a newbie that approaches you at the DZ, why would you do it on here?

There's nothing wrong with someone thirsty for knowledge using dz.com as a place to discuss things and ask questions, as long as it's not their sole source of information.

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Chill out, your sweating all over my computer.



I'm chill, just having a friendly discussion. B|

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I'm not going to name names because I don't want to be accused of making a "personal attack" but the fact that there are people on this forum with a couple dozen jumps and THOUSANDS of posts (many of them in skydiving-related threads) is exactly why new jumpers should avoid taking any sort of advice from DZ until they have enough experience to know whose posts to ignore. New skydivers are overwhelmed with information and resources and may see a post by someone with 5000 posts and assume that gives them credibility when they actually don't know shit about skydiving.



I recall a few years back when a guy with about 50 jumps wrote a freefall simulation to explain exit order and separation and posted it on the old rec.skydiving newsgroup. It was initially greeted with derision by most experienced jumpers (Bryan Burke, Billvon and Winsor were about the only exceptions). After all, the guy only had some 50 jumps, what did he know? Bryan posted it on the Skydive Arizona website. Now it is still regularly quoted as a good source of information on the subject.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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I recall a few years back when a guy with about 50 jumps wrote a freefall simulation to explain exit order and separation...



Now what newbie with only 50 jumps would know anything about freefall simulation and exit order and separation?
:D:D:P

Hmmmmmm?


Again, for those who don't know...
http://mypages.iit.edu/~kallend/skydive/
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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I don't think the posted jump numbers count. They aren't audited and anyone can drop a D license and number of jumps in that gives them so called credibility. Post count is totally irrelevant (but you already know that)



What???
Are you saying you don't believe my profile?
How DARE you!
:D:D;)
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Nice post bqmassey.

There are people who are voluntarily here on a web site who like to say, "Never listen to anything on this site!" It isn't as if one's local instructor / rigger / experienced jumper is the expert on everything, and has better ideas than the best on this web site, even if you should talk to the local folks in the end before jumping.

Sure we have to watch out for the people who get an idea on the web and try to implement it without understanding the context or talking to the local jumpers. But not everyone is like that.

While some people are helpful in adding more to what one posts, at other times one gets jumped on because any given piece of advice does not include all other pieces of advice that are possible, nor every possible caveat.

So if I wrote on dz.com that I was going to walk across the street, someone would accuse me of being unsafe by not planning to look both ways, and making it dangerous for students because they might think they don't need to look both ways. Jeez, I just said I was going to cross the street, not describe a full course on how a person should cross the street safely.

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If I've given off the impression



No, but that does not mean that there are others that do think that.

You do claim to be able to separate the "wheat from the chaff" so to speak, and that may or may not be true, and it may be hit or miss. But just because it may be true for you, does not mean they guy next to you can, yet he may still think he can.

There are two points that I'm trying to get across.

1.) Many "students" are NOT conscientious enough to take what they read on DZ.com with a grain of salt and run it by a trusted party before they make any changes to their gear, habits, or procedures. SOME "students" are going to run out and immediately try something they read in a YouTube comment or somewhere else on the internet. NOT ALL "students" I know have the common sense to check information against multiple trusted sources. WE'RE NOT ALL IMPRESSIONABLE YOUNG CHILDREN THAT WILL DO ANYTHING THAT ANYBODY TELLS US TO DO, BUT SOME OF US ARE.

2.) Obviously, anyone of any skill level can post anything they want on the internet, so everything you read on here should be considered carefully and taken with a grain of salt. There is plenty of good information, but... DROPZONE.COM DOES STILL CONTAIN SOME CRAP INFORMATION FOR SKYDIVERS, whether you like it or not.

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This "us vs them" mentality, this "I have XXXXX jumps so I know everything, you only have XXX so you know nothing" attitude doesn't seem productive.



This "I am a smart guy so I don't have to listen you you and your experiences" attitude is not working either.

I have been skydiving 18 years. I can recall many times dealing with a problem student, or asking a guy that just screwed up where he got the idea to try 'X'. Many times that answer was recdot, DZ.com, my buddy.. etc.

I had a student try to turn bending his spine... Yes, it can be done. Yes, it used to be taught. But it is far from the best method and can easily roll the student over... So, I had to grab and roll the student back over. After grabbing and rolling the student back over 3 times on one jump.... Imagine my surprise when on the ground I ask him what he was doing and he tells me he that his buddy told him to turn that way. It was not what I briefed before the jump, it was not what he showed me on the ground, it is not what was taught by any instructor on the DZ and maybe ANY DZ in the US. But, he did it anyway.

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It's one thing to look out for the less experienced and help keep them on the right path, it's another to tell them they have no ability to think for themselves and pound it into their head that they're too slow to understand.



You keep harping on that..... No one is saying students are stupid (well, some are, but so are some Instructors). We as an experienced group are saying that information without vetting the source, information not TOTALLY understood, information not executed in the right way, information used at the wrong time.... ALL are bad things that in this sport can kill you.

In that light, it is better to get your information from people you know, and that know you than some dude with a cool user name.

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but there ARE people that will learn better from a mentor, not an asshole.



You can't get a mentor online.

You seem to think that I am harping on you... No. But you also seem to think that you have the ability to prevent from taking bad information.... That remains to be seen.

I had a young jumper tell me he bought a new canopy that was ZP and sized correctly for him. When he told me the brand I told him to never jump that canopy. Now he had selected what he thought was a good canopy, and by almost every parameter he had done a good job. But he missed in one very large detail that might have killed him.

He bought a Nova. Do a search and then tell me if he bought a canopy that was good for him.

The point is, that most students do not know what they do not know. For that reason it is best to check with an Instructor and not get advice from an untrusted source.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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