"Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence "

[Ron 7]

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I'm reminded of a stabbing at a Florida DZ when someone stood up to protect a woman.

Yeah, but the stabee was Randy..... So it was hard to pick a side on that one......

Kidding, Randy stepped up and earned some respect from me that day

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Airgump 1]

RICK! going to try to get back down that way first week or so in Feb. will holler as that magical time approaches.

waiting on new gear from Bonehead that should be done by the end of Jan, and had to send the brand new RW suit Tony made me back to get the booties enlarged to fit my huge freaking feets.

got 27 inches of snow up here since i saw you last. this is one time i wish they'd lay me off

[normiss 622]

We need to go back to calling him "Stabby".

[happythoughts 0]

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We need to go back to calling him "Stabby".

I told K, "The party was going well right up until the stabbing."
(Among my social skills, Consolation isn't a strength for me)

[chuckakers 370]

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I can name 10 other places that would provide a better chance at a return.

Please do.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[chuckakers 370]

I have no inside knowledge of this situation, but I have worked with Billy and have some opinions of my own.

I rented turbine aircraft from Billy when I operated a DZ. In my experience, Billy was a gruff sort of guy who didn't waste a lot of words and had no desire to candy-coat anything.

Billy was also a man of his word with whom I conducted business on a handshake. He never failed to have the aircraft I needed, even if he had to shuffle birds around to keep me in a plane while taking one out of service. He worked with me on per-seat pricing and never complained when iffy clouds made for a weekend full of second, third, and even fourth passes.

His planes were in great condition and maintained better than most. When there was a problem, Billy made sure it got fixed in short order regardless of what it cost.

I'm not trying to piss on the anti-Billy parade. I just wanted to pass along my thoughts too.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[popsjumper 2]

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I'm reminded of a stabbing at a Florida DZ when someone stood up to protect a woman.

Why wouldn't you welcome a knife wielding skydiver at your DZ???



A thief? A disease spreading morally lacking jumper??? A seriously unsafe resulting in someone else's injury or death skydiver?

I said: "I hope you don't mean, I can screw up however I want to at one DZ and expect to welcomed with a clean slate at the next."

Just for clarification...
Your post (#122) doesn't read like you understand that I'm agreeing with you.


Oh wait...sarcasm, right?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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Randy stepped up and earned some respect from me that day

I just wish he had done it a different way that had not resulted in a stabbing.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[normiss 622]

Words resulted in the stabbing reaction, nothing more.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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Randy stepped up and earned some respect from me that day

I just wish he had done it a different way that had not resulted in a stabbing.

So you are blaming the guy for getting stabbed?

[skyrider 0]

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Randy stepped up and earned some respect from me that day

I just wish he had done it a different way that had not resulted in a stabbing.

So you are blaming the guy for getting stabbed?

I've stabbed/cut a few people in my life, and Yes, they all caused it!

[danielcroft 2]

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/oct/26/261443/zephyrhills-oks-20-year-lease-for-skydive-city-des/news-pasco/

Based on that article and TK saying that the price hike would put them down $160k/year, you could come to the conclusion that slots would cost ~$2.30 more. That's not counting tandems or AFF obviously. Z-hills charge $24.50 per jump ticket and you can get discounts if you buy them in bulk.

Just wanted to get that out there because I was curious.

As for the "Ranch people aren't welcome at z-hills" anymore, I agree that these issues have nothing to do with the average skydiver. I also agree that people at either DZ will come to some conclusion about this situation. Has it affected the number of people visiting zhills this year? Yes, it has. This situation didn't affect me in any way because I'm not doing a skydiving trip this year.

I would also like to point out that even the Blue Sky Ranch email said Free Fall Express -v- Skydive City, not Blue Sky Ranch so there's a distinction there.

As for "facts to back that up", as I said earlier, I'm basing my comments on information that's in the media, i.e. what's publicly available. Can we trust the media? Probably not but you can probably trust them a little more than hearing from one of the involved parties and we've only heard from one of them. Point is, the truth is normally somewhere in the middle.

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No one is shooting him down for not having a contract. We are saying that without a contract he cannot force an issue that he only *thinks* exists.

Agreed but when you have TK on this board admitting that there were verbal contracts and nothing written down, verbal contracts that go back years apparently then I find myself wondering.

As for Deland, I wouldn't have done that based on what I know about the situation.

I would like to jump at the Farm though.

Anyway, I've been staying away from this thread because almost everything I have to say is off topic (it's about DeLand after all) so apologies for that.

[SkydiveJack 1]

"We have met the enemy and he is us"
Pogo 1970

[normiss 622]

"Has it affected the number of people visiting zhills this year? Yes, it has. "

How do you know this?

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi daniel,

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Agreed but when you have TK on this board admitting that there were verbal contracts and nothing written down, verbal contracts that go back years apparently then I find myself wondering.

I worked in Contract Management for 30 yrs. Verbal contracts can be binding ( in fact, they are binding ) but the problem is just what was said. Therein lies the problem. Most verbal contracts simply do not have sufficient details to make them enforceable unless it is something simple like "I'll give you $30 for that canopy" & 'OK, I'll take it.'

And then there is the age old problem of did one party actually say exactly what the other party says they said.

And I do know that a verbal contract can be binding per the Uniform Commercial Code ( UCC ).

Just for example let us say that FFE agreed to provide aircraft on the weekends for 14 months at some price. And the other party agreed. When ( and I do not know ) FFE did not provide aircraft on any given weekend during that period ( short of a Force Majeure ) then FFE was in breach and the contract was void. A Force Majeure does not have to be actually included but is usually implied. A Force Majeure is usually defined similar to an Act of God, i.e., something that neither party could do anything about nor act around.

Just my thoughts . . . They are worth just about what you paid for them.

NOTE) I do not consider myself an expert on contracts and I do not know anything about the details of any actual contract between these two parties.

JerryBaumchen

[davelepka 4]

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Just for example let us say that FFE agreed to provide aircraft on the weekends for 14 months at some price. And the other party agreed. When ( and I do not know ) FFE did not provide aircraft on any given weekend during that period ( short of a Force Majeure ) then FFE was in breach and the contract was void

Add to that, if FFE was willing to supply the aircraft, but not at the agreed price, that would also void the contract.

That appears to be what happened here. A verbal contract was in place, but FEE nullified it when they presented a new contract with a higher cost. Z-hills declined the new contract.

It's a risk you take when you try to renegotiate any contract. Don't ask a question unless you are equally preparred to hear both 'yes' and 'no' as an answer.

[Ron 7]

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I would also like to point out that even the Blue Sky Ranch email said Free Fall Express -v- Skydive City, not Blue Sky Ranch so there's a distinction there.

The distinction is lost when you look at the fact that the information was in BSR official announcement making claims like, " TK Hayes has lost the plot", "Zhills has been putting jumpers in imminent danger", and then mentioning that the Ranch Hands will not be going to Zhills "for loyalty reasons".

You really trying to claim that it was "only FFE"????

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Probably not but you can probably trust them a little more than hearing from one of the involved parties and we've only heard from one of them.

Actually... I have heard from several of them. I was at Zhills last weekend. Only TK has posted, but there are lots of individuals that are involved both working at Zhills and for the City.

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Agreed but when you have TK on this board admitting that there were verbal contracts and nothing written down, verbal contracts that go back years apparently then I find myself wondering.

And as stated, verbal contracts that one side admits they were trying to change.

Ever notice that the legal issues brought up by Billy have not been over his "exclusive" rights? They have been over the fuel farm, the hanger, and TK's flying the Cessna being 'dangerous'.

The fact is that TK has stated that any Ranch Hand that wants to show up at Zhills is welcome but Billy is trying to get people to avoid Zhills.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[freefalle 0]

so does anyone even know if this business is going to open? Just wondering

[GoHuskers 0]

I have no strong opinions here, but I would like to point out that when standard practices of American banking become the litmus test of business ethics, something has gone awry...

Como se dice ZING

[mjosparky 3]

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so does anyone even know if this business is going to open? Just wondering

What Business?

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[danielcroft 2]

Facebook thread that I've seen on a planned trip. For the record, I had no involvement and made no comment.

[danielcroft 2]

Interesting points. I can certainly see that (and have a very simple understanding of) verbal contracts can be difficult to enforce. How is the legal situation affected by the continuation of transactions showing an agreement on price and services? To put it another way: If FFE and SC had agreed verbally to aircraft supply at a certain rate, FFE had failed to supply planes on one (or more occasions as suggested by someone) then the agreed agreement resumed following this breach, what are the legal implications?

[Andy9o8 0]

Trust me, nobody wants to read a lengthy post that looks like a law school exam answer. All involved have lawyers. Let the lawyers bash it out.

[danielcroft 2]

That's what I was saying about it having very little to do with the average jumper. All of my friends pretty much had the same reaction: "Doesn't have anything to do with me". My comment about this situation affecting the number of people making trips to Zhills was actually regarding a different group of people who apparently were affected by the situation, either via this email suggestion or other factors. As I said, people will make their own minds up as to whether they feel that behavior on either side would lead them to make different plans for jumping.

Fair enough, I haven't heard directly from anyone from zhills other than TK via this thread, I have friends who are very close with people at zhills and ultimately this is not a good situation.

Yes, I have. As the the DZM, TK can decide to go with a different vendor, that's totally his call (unless the board is meant to be involved but I don't know if that's the case or not). I'm not surprised that the legal issues are around the fuel farm and hangar but if you review some of the articles that have been posted you'll see that the legal action around those items is due to the assertion that FFE paid for those facilities and had verbal contracts in place (allegedly) regarding those investments.

It's all well and good to say that verbal contracts don't mean a lot in a court of law unless they can be proved in a meaningful way. That's fine, but the fact that they were there (again, TK effectively said as much after Dave's synopsis) and apparently one party has decided to disregard the verbal contracts and use these facilities that were an investment by the other party without providing any remuneration seems to be the problem. Legal action, based on that premise, seems reasonable to me.

I think Chuck's experience with Billy is an interesting piece of information for everyone in this thread as well.

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Trust me, nobody wants to read a lengthy post that looks like a law school exam answer. All involved have lawyers. Let the lawyers bash it out.

Fair enough.

[Ron 7]

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My comment about this situation affecting the number of people making trips to Zhills was actually regarding a different group of people who apparently were affected by the situation, either via this email suggestion or other factors.

And that's my point... Only one group is holding a grudge and trying to make life difficult for the other party.... and it is not TK or anyone at SDC.

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Yes, I have. As the the DZM, TK can decide to go with a different vendor, that's totally his call (unless the board is meant to be involved but I don't know if that's the case or not)

And the board decided to make this move. BR is only one member of the board. The vote didn't go the way he wanted.

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I'm not surprised that the legal issues are around the fuel farm and hangar but if you review some of the articles that have been posted you'll see that the legal action around those items is due to the assertion that FFE paid for those facilities and had verbal contracts in place (allegedly) regarding those investments.

You ignored the lawsuits brought against TK, his aircraft business, the pilots that are still flying here... Etc.

Plus you ignore the fact that the CITY has no 'contract' with BR, or FFE. The only contract that does exist is between SDC and the City.

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That's fine, but the fact that they were there (again, TK effectively said as much after Dave's synopsis) and apparently one party has decided to disregard the verbal contracts and use these facilities that were an investment by the other party without providing any remuneration seems to be the problem.

The facts are:

1. There was a verbal agreement between FFE and SDC. No one knows what the actual agreement was since it was not written down and was put into place 13+ years ago when there was a different manager.

2. FFE tried to renegotiate the contract (never mind that they had failed to comply on their end more than once). And SDC decided not to accept the new terms. FFE seems to think that only they are allowed to change the terms of the 'contract' and anything they want to do has to be accepted.

If FFE had not tried to change the contract to make more money.... Nothing would have happened.

No documentation of a contract pretty much means there is no contract since no one really knows what the terms were. Where there provisions for rate hikes??? No one knows. Heck, maybe TK should take the stance that the original contract was for SDC to pay 8 dollars a slot and sue to make FFE accept those terms????

Changing the terms of a contract invalidates a contract. And FFE tried to do this.

Non-compliance invalidates a contract.

So the exclusivity 'contract' is a non-starter, and the lawyers/rulings have said as much.

3. So then FFE/BR changed tactics and sued saying SDC was "unsafe" and the jumpers were in immediate danger unless FFE was allowed to fly again.

That died a quick death since SDC was able to prove the aircraft they hired are at least as well maintained as FFE AC.

FFE had a point about TK and the Cessna... But that has been resolved.

4. Billy has tried to open DZ's on airports that have DZ's. Speculation is that BR is doing this in an attempt to 'punish' those DZ's. Personally, I could have agreed with BR opening a ZHills DZ if he could prove he 'owned' the hanger. But in reality, the CITY owns the hanger and allows SDC to use it.

But still, if I had payed for a hanger, I'd want to be able to use it.

But the DeLand issue seems to be pure revenge based to me. And others seem to agree.

I have talked to TK, read his stuff, talked to people at the DZ, TALKED TO PEOPLE FROM THE CITY, and I can tell you that the general consensus from the City us the hanger and fuel farm issue is dead in the water.

There are plenty of airports in FL that would like a DZ... Hell, Start just opened one about an hour from Zhills.

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I think Chuck's experience with Billy is an interesting piece of information for everyone in this thread as well.

Of course.... But it is just one piece of info, just like TK's postings.

Why did BR try to sue Marco?

Why did BR tried to build a DZ in DeLand?

If you answer these questions, you might start to see a little more of the picture.

Right now BR looks like a supplier that tried to dictate terms to his customer. When he was told no, he started suing, when the lawsuits didn't work he started trying to compete against them..... In this case he is acting like WalMart.

Hey, I am ALL for a free market. I think the suing is bit dirty. I think trying to guilt your locals into blacklisting the place is a bit dirty.

I fail to see how anyone other than the principals really care.... If I were not bored I would not waste my time. Now this is boring me.... The facts are pretty well laid out.

Suffice to say... I am pretty sure I will never be welcomed at the Ranch. But, I can assure you that I will not hold the Ranch against anyone.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334