The111 0 #1 August 25, 2005 I have a very good friend who may be going through AFF soon. I am guessing he will tell me about his jump experiences and maybe even ask for advice. Because we are so close, I am anticipating that I will actually be tempted to answer his questions or try to give him little pointers. But I am planning on following the advice I've heard so many times and referring him to his instructors. However, once he graudates AFF and starts doing solos... say he keeps asking me questions then, is it ok to answer? Or what if I get a coach rating and make some 2-ways with him before he gets his A license? After he gets his A license? 30 jumps? 40, 50? When is it ok for me to treat him like an "adult" jumper and have open conversations about things like landing, mals, EP's, or anything else he might ask? The same way we all do with each other on the DZ and on these forums.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #2 August 25, 2005 Personally I'd say once he has his A it's up to him who he listens to. From then on just be very humble and remember who you are - ie don't give advice if you're not absolutely sure of and if you're not sure, say so while providing an alternate source for the advice he's after. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tcnelson 1 #3 August 25, 2005 anytime you can impart knowledge and wisdom to your friend based upon your experience is the correct time."Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #4 August 25, 2005 A few "rules" I try to follow when talking skydiving with students (I do not currently hold any instructional ratings) - 1) Don't discuss emergency procedures. How I do EP's is likely different from how a student has been trained to do EP's. Always refer questions on EP's to the student's instructors. 2) Don't bullshit. If you don't know the answer to a question, say so - and then take them to the person you think will know the answer. 3) Don't tell them that skydiving is safe, but don't tell too many horror stories either. 4) Help them find their own answers. Encourage them to purchase an SIM (in the US). Direct them to the Safety section of this website. There's loads of excellent information out there for them; show them where to find it. 5) Don't offer advice about things you don't have knowledge/experience in. 6) Listen when they tell their own jump stories. Don't offer advice, just listen. Comment based on your own experiences ("yeah, I loved doing backloops but my first one was really bad too"). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #5 August 25, 2005 I agree with all your points, Lisa. However, things like this are what I'm asking about: Quote1) Don't discuss emergency procedures. How I do EP's is likely different from how a student has been trained to do EP's. Always refer questions on EP's to the student's instructors. While I would not discuss that with a student, I would gladly discuss it with you. There would be nothing wrong with you and I comparing our EP's and explaining to each other why we use them (sidenote: I changed EP's when I had my first cutaway at 50 jumps and used my new EP's correctly at 210 jumps). But would this hypothetical conversation between us have been acceptable when I had 300 jumps? 200? 100? 50? 25? My question is basically when can the "no holds barred" conversation begin?www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #6 August 25, 2005 Are they a dumbass? I would feel quite comfortable discussing why I have the cutaway proc I do have with some students on the understanding that they do theirs they way they've been trained. Others I wouldn't trust not to emulate me based on a simple conversation alone because they thought my cutaway drill was the "cool" way "experienced" jumpers did it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #7 August 25, 2005 QuoteAre they a dumbass? No matter how smart you are, it's likely to get overloaded when learning something like skydiving. I observed this first hand taking people on FFC's in wingsuits at Rantoul just earlier this month. I watched some students (some of them VERY experienced skydivers already) struggle to emulate the simple (to me) procedures I trained them to perform. I watched almost all of them make common mistakes on their first jump. My insides were screaming sometimes "c'mon, it's just a simple wingsuit jump, get is straight!" But it wasn't until I thought back to my first WS jump that I realized how overwhelming all that new info seemed at once. There may be a few students who could handle talking to you, as you suggested. But why not err on the side of caution? It can't hurt. The purpose of this post is not to debate what we can talk to students about. It's about WHEN we can remove the zipper from our lips. Sidenote: "he is a dumbass" "they are dumbasses" www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #8 August 25, 2005 QuoteBut would this hypothetical conversation between us have been acceptable when I had 300 jumps? 200? 100? 50? 25? I understand what it is you're trying to ask. But I think only you have the answer being that it's concerning a friend of yours. You see, I have two friends currently in training. I make no reservations about speaking with them openly about any aspect of the sport because I know them and when they ask me something, I have a better understanding of what it is they are looking for and why. That is, I am more comfortable saying something like: "This is what I do now and this is why. You should stick to what Scott (instructor) is telling you now and this is why." then I would speaking to a stranger student. The reason? Because I may not trust that the stranger student isn't going to take my way and apply it... And I'm not sure the stranger "gets me" the way my friends do. You know what I mean? I'm also more privy to their particular progress because I'm hearing about their experiences over and over and over again... lol... and watching their videos over and over and over again... lol. As far as actually giving advice? I'd say not until they are A licencend, and even then, it should be reserved to things you are 110% sure about and 115% sure that it doesn't conflict directly with what they may have been just taught. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,053 #9 August 25, 2005 Go with Lisa's advice. If you need a more definitive line... If you have a Coach rating and they have been handed off, then be a Coach. If you don't have the Coach rating, tell them you can discuss anything they want after they have their "A" License - until then, it would be irresponsible of me not to direct you to your instructors/coach.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #10 August 25, 2005 QuoteMy question is basically when can the "no holds barred" conversation begin? For most people I'd say once they have their A license, since that's when we think they're "grown up" enough to play with others. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #11 August 25, 2005 QuoteSidnote: "he is a dumbass" "they are dumbasses" I used "they" in the colloquial singular gender-neutral pronoun as opposed to the plural. Sadly (or happily depending on how you look at it) English has no neutral singular pronoun only "he" for masculine and "she" for feminine. In fact I believe our language is unique in this respect. If we want to use a gender neutral pronoun we must resort to "they". Whilst technically a third person plural term it is commonly employed in the gender neutral singular. As for if the student could cope with a conversation on reserve drills (eg) you're probably right to err on the side of caution. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EvilLurker 2 #12 August 25, 2005 I guess I'd draw the line when I heard them say something that was dangerously false. That would mean that they had misunderstood what they had been told. If I was at the DZ, I would mention to their JM/I or the DZO what I had heard and have them address it. If not at the DZ, I would explain to the friend why the information was wrong and tell them to discuss it with their JM/I before making another jump. If somebody gets offended by that (and I can't imagine they would), maybe you and your friend are jumping at the wrong DZ. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #13 August 25, 2005 QuoteEnglish has no neutral singular pronoun only "he" for masculine and "she" for feminine. In fact I believe our language is unique in this respect. Hijacking my own thread... We also don't assign genders to inanimate objects. Ever see the Calvin and Hobbes where he tells his teacher he demands to know the gender of his desk? What say you and I invent a non-gendered form of he/she, and see if we can get it to catch on? Any suggestions? How about Xe?www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #14 August 25, 2005 I just to jump an XE... not so happy about telling people I used to jump something between genders. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #15 August 26, 2005 While you're at it, could you come up with a way to distinguish between the singular and plural forms of 'you'? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jtlmd 0 #16 August 26, 2005 Down in Texas we always said "you'all" for the plural. It is pronounced "yawl". JTL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #17 August 26, 2005 QuoteDown in Texas we always said "you'all" for the plural. It is pronounced "yawl". JTL And here I was taught that "y'all" could be singular or plural. "All y'all" is the definitive plural form. Threadjacking aside, as a relative newbie without any instructional ratings, I make it a point to limit what I talk about with current students. I will share my own experiences if asked, but always defer to instructors. I had a student ask me about gear and where to find used gear. I said there were a lot of listings on dropzone.com, but said that before he even came here, he should talk to his instructors about what was appropriate gear for him. I wouldn't even begin to make that kind of a recommendation. If a student said "How do you like your Spectre?" I'd say that I love it but that they should talk to their instructors about whether it's the right canopy for them. As for newly-licensed A jumpers, I think that's when the gloves can come off."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masher 1 #18 August 26, 2005 Turn the question back at them "How should I flare?" "There are lots of ways. How were you taught?" demonstrates "If that's how you were taught, sounds good to me. I grip my toggles differently (or whatever), but it's still as secure. If you want an opinion from an experienced guy, see blah"-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #19 August 26, 2005 Knowing you, if I had a friend that was a student I'd be comfortable with them getting advice from you once they were off student status. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #20 August 26, 2005 QuoteDown in Texas we always said "you'all" for the plural. It is pronounced "yawl". I beleive it was the white trash population who first coined the term: "Yous", pronounced: "Yooz" as in: "Hey, yous-guys gonna be at that there pig-roast this evenin'?" My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #21 August 27, 2005 QuoteQuoteDown in Texas we always said "you'all" for the plural. It is pronounced "yawl". I beleive it was the white trash population who first coined the term: "Yous", pronounced: "Yooz" as in: "Hey, yous-guys gonna be at that there pig-roast this evenin'?" I dunno, that sounds more like a gangster/northerner dialect to me...www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #22 September 1, 2005 QuoteWhat say you and I invent a non-gendered form of he/she, and see if we can get it to catch on? Any suggestions? How about Xe? Doesn't 'it' work well enough? He, she, it.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #23 September 1, 2005 QuoteDoesn't 'it' work well enough? He, she, it. Not if you're talking about a person.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #24 September 2, 2005 I believe that one is originally Irish. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
