0
Tomex

If you think Cypres is better than Argus or any other AAD... Think again.

Recommended Posts

Yeah, the AAD wars are in full swing and we (skydivers) are caught in the middle... If you are an Argus owner and due to the (heck I will say it) PIA ban and you need your AAD teddybear. You might have to drop another $1500 for another manufacturers AAD. If your Cypres owner, your AAD hasn't lived up to the claims of 100% reliability. In fact, Cypres appears to be responsible for a number of fatalities (For exact number, please see link: http://viewer.zoho.com/docs/c6UCg). Please correct me if I am wrong, but it might be more fatalities than Argus and Vigil combined. Plus, Cypres is facing a lawsuit in California, which doesn't look good for Cypres... So I have attached several links that I found on the web that supports the various facts and statements made in this post. Plus additional information for both sides of the argument...

Skydiving is about fun and doing something very few people will ever get to do... Where do drama and politics come into the mix… It shouldn’t. Skydiving is an awesome and amazing sport. The sky is big enough for everyone. B|

http://viewer.zoho.com/docs/c6UCg

http://blueskiesmag.com/2011/03/25/argus-aad-responds-to-service-bulletins/

http://www.uspa.org/NewsEvents/News/tabid/59/Default.aspx

http://www.skysurfer.com.au/wiki/index.php/The_Argus_AAD_Saga

http://www.pia.com/PIAPUBS.htm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Please substantiate the claim of Cypres being responsible for 34 fatalities.

Adrian Nichols - absolutely, that's impossible to argue with.
But people who went in with the Cypres - surely you cannot say that Cypres caused them to go in. Cypres may not have saved them, but it surely did not cause their death.

This is like holding ABS brakes responsible for road deaths.

And just to put things into perspective - how many Cypres units are out there ? How many Vigils are out there ? How many Argus units are out there ? How many jumps are made on each of those brands ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Making AAD's mandatory was stupid.

I am lucky to not have to use one, I am not totally opposed to them but to be forced to use a device that can fail is not just.
We should have aa choice.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
>If your Cypres owner, your AAD hasn't lived up to the claims of 100% reliability.

No AAD claims 100% reliability.

>Plus, Cypres is facing a lawsuit in California, which doesn't look good for Cypres..

Yep. Pretty much every rig and canopy manufacturer out there - and most drop zones - have faced such a lawsuit at one time or another.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


I am lucky to not have to use one, I am not totally opposed to them but to be forced to use a device that can fail is not just.
We should have aa choice.



Unfortunatly we are all forced to use a device on every jump that has failed a lot more often than any AAD. The proven failure of this device is part of the reason why AADs where introduced. We all have this device (more or less) but sometimes chose not to use it on a jump, prior to a jump or when choosing gear. If we would use this device more often and accept that a back up device* makes sense we would all be a lot safer.

This device is called Brain.



*AAD
If it does not cost anything you are the product.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Yeah, the AAD wars are in full swing and we (skydivers) are caught in the middle... If you are an Argus owner and due to the (heck I will say it) PIA ban and you need your AAD teddybear. You might have to drop another $1500 for another manufacturers AAD. If your Cypres owner, your AAD hasn't lived up to the claims of 100% reliability. In fact, Cypres appears to be responsible for a number of fatalities (For exact number, please see link: http://viewer.zoho.com/docs/c6UCg). Please correct me if I am wrong, but it might be more fatalities than Argus and Vigil combined. Plus, Cypres is facing a lawsuit in California, which doesn't look good for Cypres... So I have attached several links that I found on the web that supports the various facts and statements made in this post. Plus additional information for both sides of the argument...

Skydiving is about fun and doing something very few people will ever get to do... Where do drama and politics come into the mix… It shouldn’t. Skydiving is an awesome and amazing sport. The sky is big enough for everyone. B|

http://viewer.zoho.com/docs/c6UCg

http://blueskiesmag.com/2011/03/25/argus-aad-responds-to-service-bulletins/

http://www.uspa.org/NewsEvents/News/tabid/59/Default.aspx

http://www.skysurfer.com.au/wiki/index.php/The_Argus_AAD_Saga

http://www.pia.com/PIAPUBS.htm



Teddy bear? Tell that to Tommy.;)
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That "zoho" link is full of assumptions and unwarranted conclusions. It was the first in your long list of links, the rest are likely junk also.

It should not be represented as an unbiased representation of facts.

Even the lawsuit against Airtek is also a load of assumptions, specifically that the cypres fired too low. That is not known, at least from the threads on this site it has not been reported to be the case. The reserve PC came out too low, we don't know when the AAD fired.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
From every first jump course I've ever taught....
"An AAD is a machine that will try to give you a second chance if you do everything wrong, but it's only a machine. Machines fail, just like humans fail. NOTHING in this world is 100% reliable."
That said, I've made over 1000 jumps without an AAD. When I started, AAD's were much more likely to fire when they didn't need to.
I've also jumped my last 500 with an AAD (an Argus). I made the decision that I should have some kind of backup. I don't rely on it, I just know it might give me another chance.
Based on everything that is now out there, I won't make another jump with my Argus activated, although I will jump without it. I have a Cypres on the way.
When I purchased the Argus, I asumed it to be as reliable as the Cypres. I now realize that is not the case, and the mode of potential failure to be extremely dangerous.
Anyone who expects 100% reliability from their AAD, their main parachute, their reserve, or themselves should consider other sports.
This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Unfortunately, another skydiving fatality has been reported at Cross Keys, NJ yesterday (3/25)... See article below...

Quote

The Gloucester (GLAH'-stur) County Prosecutor's Office says 45-year-old Carter Scott Shields was killed when his main parachute failed to open and his emergency chute did not fully deploy."



This incident appears to have similarities to previous incidents that started the AAD wars. I am wondering if he had an AAD and what brand? I am also interested in the response from the powers that be?


http://www.abcnews4.com/Global/story.asp?S=14324985

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What do you think the AAD's job is? It opens the container at a set perceived altitude, plus or minus some number of feet or meters.

Because it generally operates when the person doesn't, it's dependent on its sensors and machinery, and on the overall parachute system. That means that if the altitude sensor is stuck in a burble, it will be inaccurate. If the pilot chute hesitates, if the reserve malfunctions, if the person traps the pilot chute due to body position -- none of these have anything to do with the Cypres.

Back before you were jumping (and before the Cypres) the single biggest reason for fatalities was probably "went in without having a reserve out in time." That's no longer the biggest cause. I'll say that readily-available fairly reliable AADs are a large part of the reason for that.

But until we can make all of the other parts of skydiving equipment bullet-proof in bad situations (e.g. bad body position, flailing), a Cypres or any other AAD isn't going to guarantee survival.

The jumper's job is to guarantee their survival. The machine's job is to mitigate, not eliminate, some of the risk when when the jumper fails.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

The jumper's job is to guarantee their survival. The machine's job is to mitigate, not eliminate, some of the risk when when the jumper fails.



True Wendy, but the AAD manufacturers are now falling prey to their own myths. Myths they helped perpetuate in the effort to convince people that jumping sans AAD was not a good idea. We've come full circle and now people are expecting the use of an AAD will prevent them from becoming a fatality. [:/]
Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Yeah, the AAD wars are in full swing and we (skydivers) are caught in the middle... If you are an Argus owner and due to the (heck I will say it) PIA ban and you need your AAD teddybear. You might have to drop another $1500 for another manufacturers AAD. If your Cypres owner, your AAD hasn't lived up to the claims of 100% reliability. In fact, Cypres appears to be responsible for a number of fatalities (For exact number, please see link: http://viewer.zoho.com/docs/c6UCg). Please correct me if I am wrong, but it might be more fatalities than Argus and Vigil combined. Plus, Cypres is facing a lawsuit in California, which doesn't look good for Cypres... So I have attached several links that I found on the web that supports the various facts and statements made in this post. Plus additional information for both sides of the argument...

Skydiving is about fun and doing something very few people will ever get to do... Where do drama and politics come into the mix… It shouldn’t. Skydiving is an awesome and amazing sport. The sky is big enough for everyone. B|

http://viewer.zoho.com/docs/c6UCg

http://blueskiesmag.com/2011/03/25/argus-aad-responds-to-service-bulletins/

http://www.uspa.org/NewsEvents/News/tabid/59/Default.aspx

http://www.skysurfer.com.au/wiki/index.php/The_Argus_AAD_Saga

http://www.pia.com/PIAPUBS.htm



Just read your profile, now your registration and rant makes sense.

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

The jumper's job is to guarantee their survival. The machine's job is to mitigate, not eliminate, some of the risk when when the jumper fails.



True Wendy, but the AAD manufacturers are now falling prey to their own myths. Myths they helped perpetuate in the effort to convince people that jumping sans AAD was not a good idea. We've come full circle and now people are expecting the use of an AAD will prevent them from becoming a fatality. [:/]



You see the same thing in motorcycling, some people strap on helmet and ride like they are invincible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Since this was discussed in another thread, I've wondered how thiis:
I decided to jump with larger groups in wingsuits. Thinking of the increased danger of becoming incapacitated by a midair collision, I decided to get an AAD.
Turns into this:
I am OK jlying in dangerous situations because I know my AAD witll always save me.

BTW the first article linked it bullshit. They blame Artec for people comitting suicide. Come on, if they have to stretch that far to make their point, it makes them look like they have no point at all. Most of the cases they site, in fact, are also bogus.
Some of the adverts are out of line too. They go too far in guaranteeing success. My guess is most do survive, but it is easy not to if you're landing unconsious. Points against the ads.
Some argue against manditory use, and I'm totally with them. Students should have them, but after that for USPA it's a choice. I think it should be.
My personal view is they do more good than harm, It seems that many people that don't want one end up being the ones that could have benefitted by having one. Same with RSL's.
I think one's odds of having a problem or an incident are affected by the choices we make:
Gear selection and maintaining.
Training and experience.
Attitude and awareness.
Each of those things are witin our control. Other things are not. When those times come, the oiutcome can be influenced by the above three things, but there are no guarantees.
Another point on gear selection. My cutter is in the bottom of the tray. That is a selling point to me.
I have been guilty of poor gear selection, and less than perfect maintenence. The problems I encountered from them, I consider preventable.
Training and experience? Yep, I've found myself writing checks my skills had a hard time cashing. Having survived them makes me careful to avoid them in the future.
Attitude and awareness? Sheesh, I got that one.
Well, until I don't anyway. I think there's still some left in my luck bucket, but I don't want to use it at all.
I'm saving it for my wingsuit landing, lol.
My use of an AAD, and RSL reflect my personal gear choices. others are free to make their own, pased in part by the type of jumping they do. I feel the good of these devices outweigh the bad. I do not ignore the bad, or sugar coat it: If I pull stupid low, my AAD will no longer be my friend. Fine, don't pull low. Good idea anyway.

I think that those that jump without an AAD can eliminate a few risks at the cost of being their own last chance. More often than not, a noob with an AAD has better odds, but it should still remain a personal choice.

Carry on.:)
But what do I know?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
in reply to "Making AAD's mandatory was stupid.

I am lucky to not have to use one, I am not totally opposed to them but to be forced to use a device that can fail is not just.
We should have aa choice. "
....................................................


Totally agree.
The only time I've enjoyed jumping with an AAD on the load was while doing tandems or AFF. Being responsible for some-one else's life removed my natural abhorance of the things.
But that responsibility stopped once the student became licenced .

Now AAD manufacturers want us all to be their little scaredy cat students that never gets off their world widely imposed AAD required ratings.

For experienced skydivers I believe the freedom of choice to AAD or not, should never be removed.

In the 80's I can remember people jumping AAD's being kneecapped from loads due to their AAD use being an indicator of that skydiver not being skilled or trustworthy in the sky.i.e. that they were a danger to other skydivers.

Similarly if a skydiver presented with a hard hat they wouldn't be allowed on the good loads due to their helmet choice indicating they couldn't be trusted in the sky. ie that they were a danger to other skydivers.

I can also remember a very talented skydiver predicting that one day AAD's would cause more incidents than they helped.

I think we're approaching that day.

.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I can also remember a very talented skydiver predicting that one day AAD's would cause more incidents than they helped.

I think we're approaching that day.


That's not the trend the statistics tell us.
"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings."
"Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

Just curious, and off topic...
Do you own an Argus?



He has one listed in his profile.

Matt


I guess I'd be pissed off too.[:/]
"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings."
"Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
sayng AADs make people less likely to look after themselves is stupid.
Does wearing a seatbelt make you a reckless driver?

I have an AAD as I dont know what will go wrong in a skydive. Ive trained for a lot of eventualities, thought of loads of scenarios but theres some that no matter what you do you may not be able to open your reserve, having something that MAY open it is much better than having nothing IMHO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

sayng AADs make people less likely to look after themselves is stupid.
Does wearing a seatbelt make you a reckless driver?

I have an AAD as I dont know what will go wrong in a skydive. Ive trained for a lot of eventualities, thought of loads of scenarios but theres some that no matter what you do you may not be able to open your reserve, having something that MAY open it is much better than having nothing IMHO


I agree with your post, although I'm not sure why you're replying to me...
"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings."
"Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This is pure and simply a political witch hunt. A great product is being attacked by a group of hacks that have everything to gain from taking out Argus. Atlas is shrugging within the skydiving community.
Blues Skies,

Ronn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0