airtwardo 6 #51 June 2, 2011 QuoteQuoteThe pilot has to be properly licensed to fly jumpers. A private pilot can fly jumpers as long as it is not "for hire". QuoteUSPA certifies that existing drop zones meet some minimum requirements in conjunction with the FAA. The FAA does no such thing. QuoteAnyplace other than those have to get waivers from both the FAA and USPA. No and No. If it is not a DEMO, a NOTAM has to be filed with the FAA, but that is about it. QuoteA demonstration jump, also called a display or exhibition jump, is a jump at a location other than an existing drop zone done for the purpose of reward, remuneration, or promotion and principally for the benefit of spectators. One purpose of USPA is to promote successful demonstration jumps as part of an overall public relations program for the sport. A demonstration jump, also called a display or exhibition jump, is a jump at a location other than an existing drop zone done for the purpose of reward, remuneration, or promotion and principally for the benefit of spectators. One purpose of USPA is to promote successful demonstration jumps as part of an overall public relations program for the sport. Bolding makes all all the difference. This was not a "demo" since there were no people in the stands "principally for the benefit of spectators". Spectator defined as n. An observer of an event or person who looks on or watches; onlooker; observer. I think everyone clicking the link is a spectator, who says ya have to see it 'live & in person'...had it not been used to promote the race and not videoed to do so, then yeah...fun jump. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #52 June 3, 2011 QuoteQuoteI'd say if there was a "Waiver of Authorization" filed for the jump with the local FAA FSDO then it was a demo. Maybe. It still might not rise to what USPA has defined a demo jump as. Either way, and the waiver was approved, then the jump was 100% legal. QuoteNo worries, with the track record the BOD has had in the past, the USPA won't do anything about it anyway. If the jump was legal and there were no spectators, why would the BOD need to do anything about it? Because the USPA has held it's self out as the self governing regulating body of skydiving in the USA, and despite the fact he was under the watchful eye of some VERY talented instructor whom I respect highly, it breaks the rules set forth about experience and demo jumps. Rules written both in blood and to keep the FAA at bay. If the USPA does nothing yet again, then the rules are weakened just that much. If there is no consequence then there is no respect for the rule. If a 7711 was issued, it IS a demo jump. If the USPA is going to endorse that through inaction, that will be just one more chink in the armor of protection.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #53 June 3, 2011 QuoteIf a 7711 was issued, it IS a demo jump. If the USPA is going to endorse that through inaction, that will be just one more chink in the armor of protection. I respectfully disgree about the 7711. If they had done the jump without the 7711, would that have been better? - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grimmie 173 #54 June 3, 2011 7711 info; http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/airshow/waiver/media/waiver_auth_info.pdf USPA info;http://www.uspa.org/SIM/Read/Section9/AC9145C/tabid/257/Default.aspx For the folks reading the thread unfamiliar with demo paperwork. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #55 June 3, 2011 the video does not show the vickers dude doing a demo, it show a camera flyer landing at the race trackYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,395 #56 June 3, 2011 >It was a demo jump. I think one thing people are getting hung up over is the word "demo." The FAA doesn't define "demo" in part 105. They do mention the term "Special Provisions for Parachute Demonstration Jumps" in advisory circular 91-45C, but that is specific to jumping into open air assemblies of people or congested areas. USPA generally means something different when it comes to demo jumps. (Actually they now call them "exhibition jumps.") They define it as a "jump at a location other than an existing drop zone done for the purpose of reward, remuneration, or promotion and principally for the benefit of spectators." So there are two very different definitions. When we did the Mojave jump for the Honda commercial, it was definitely a USPA demo jump (outside a DZ, renumeration, spectators, etc) but not an FAA demo jump since we did not need specific authorization from the FAA. Likewise, one could envision a jump that USPA would not consider a demo jump (like a DZ operating very close to a city, over a congested area) that the FAA would require a form 7711 for. Also, if the FAA issues an authorization, then the FAA has determined that everyone involved is OK to do the jump. They even mention that if the FAA guy does have any questions, the "FAA inspector may require a demonstration (not over a congested area) of comparable skill before issuing the authorization." That's not to say that the jump will follow USPA rules, but at least concerning experience level of the people involved it is legal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DiverMike 5 #57 June 3, 2011 QuoteA private pilot can fly jumpers as long as it is not "for hire". I'm not sure that is completely true and I'd appreciate any other pilots chiming in, but I feel if any commerce occurs during the flight, you have to have a commerical ticket. That would include coached jumps, AFF's, Tandems, and anybody using rental gear. Further splitting hairs, how about the reserve pack? What if the pilot was also a rigger who was paid to pack the reserve, but only has a private ticket. Could he fly any jumper with his reserve packjob? Taking it further, anybody who doesn't pack their own reserve is engaging in a commericial activity by skydiving, so 99% of skydives could not be flown by a private pilot. For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
velvetjo 0 #58 June 3, 2011 Get real. The issue that made this whole thing so muddy was Private Pilots flying jumpers for no pay to build hours. The FAA then interpreted the flight time itself as compensation, which was a de facto declaration that you need to be a Commercial Pilot to fly for a commercial DZ. On the other hand, if we owned a 182, my Private Pilot wife could fly me and me buddies on jump loads legally all day long since she's not being compensated, even by flight time. We should even be able to split fuel costs among all parties, although there's probably some FSDO bozo willing to make an issue of that if the local hangar tool reported it. If you disagree, please cite the FAR or interpretation you're basing you opinion on. I call BS on the repacks, etc. Lance Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wrightskyguy 1 #59 June 3, 2011 QuoteI am not sure how big the site is, but I would assume that it is large enough to meet the open field or level 1 requirements (effectively 250 000 square foot or bigger). Then the requirements are for a C license plus a few other restrictions. *** I jumped into Daytona on Race day and it was the easiest demo you could ever do. It is absolutely huge!. You could put 1st jump students in there there's so much room. John Wright World's most beloved skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites normiss 622 #60 June 3, 2011 Isn't it considered a stadium though? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites theonlyski 3 #61 June 3, 2011 QuoteI call BS on the repacks, etc. +1"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wolfriverjoe 1,340 #62 June 3, 2011 QuoteQuoteA private pilot can fly jumpers as long as it is not "for hire". I'm not sure that is completely true and I'd appreciate any other pilots chiming in, but I feel if any commerce occurs during the flight, you have to have a commerical ticket. That would include coached jumps, AFF's, Tandems, and anybody using rental gear. Further splitting hairs, how about the reserve pack? What if the pilot was also a rigger who was paid to pack the reserve, but only has a private ticket. Could he fly any jumper with his reserve packjob? Taking it further, anybody who doesn't pack their own reserve is engaging in a commericial activity by skydiving, so 99% of skydives could not be flown by a private pilot. Bolded part is correct. If anybody is paying to be on the plane a commercial ticket is required. Even if it is fun jumpers paying for fuel, they are paying to be on board the plane, and a commercial ticket is required. For passengers to share costs, they and the pilot must be on the plane for a common purpose. Since the jumpers are jumping and the pilot isn't, the flight isn't for a common purpose. Who they pay and for what on the ground (repacks, rental gear, ect.) doesn't count. If a private pilot wishes to take jumpers up and let them jump out, it is perfectly legal, as long as the pilot pays for the flight."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jlmiracle 7 #63 June 3, 2011 reply] Ok you all have me curious: Regardless of whether this was a demo or an exhibition or a bandit jump or whatever, there seems to be a common view here that the Raceway was all but abandoned this day. As I look at the video, am I the only one who sees a ton of people in the stands? The place looks damn well crowded. I have not been inside Daytona Raceway so I can't absolutely swear that those are people. Just looks that way to me. Anyone else? The stands were empty. Brian is sponsored by Red Bull. Video guy was a one of the Redbull guys. This was a promotional/commercial for the race in July. Nothing more, nothing less. The landing area is larger than most if not every dropzone in America. Funny how none of you commented on the "lake" and why you haven't questioned whether or not he had water gear. Several websites that are posting this video have a comment section. Most people who commented thinks is really cool and would like to try it someday. Proof this is good for the sport. This was not a bandit jump. If it was, they are some pretty stealthy guys to make a jump that close to an international airport and then air it without the FAA finding out. Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DanG 1 #64 June 3, 2011 QuoteIf a private pilot wishes to take jumpers up and let them jump out, it is perfectly legal, as long as the pilot pays for the flight. Yep. And even if you argue that they are all on board for a common purpose, the pilot must pay at least his pro rata share of expenses (gas, oil, fees, etc) so the Private Pilot is still barred from taking his buddies up unless the Pilot chips in his share. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DiverMike 5 #65 June 3, 2011 Thanks - your interpretation makes the most sense to me. I guess I would summarize it as: If a private pilot wishes to take jumpers up and let them jump out, it is perfectly legal, as long as the pilot pays for the flight, no commercial activity occurs on the flight, and the pilot is not compensated by trade, cash or barter. I have a private ticket and wouldn't mind paying for the plane and letting people jump out while I build hours if I got something in return (lessons, coaching, pack jobs,beer around the bonfire, etc). I clearly can't do that. Sorry for stealing the thread - back to demos For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #66 June 3, 2011 QuoteQuoteIf a private pilot wishes to take jumpers up and let them jump out, it is perfectly legal, as long as the pilot pays for the flight. Yep. And even if you argue that they are all on board for a common purpose, the pilot must pay at least his pro rata share of expenses (gas, oil, fees, etc) so the Private Pilot is still barred from taking his buddies up unless the Pilot chips in his share. I think it all depends on how the local Fizzdough wants to interpret the wording. I've done literally dozens of demos where the pilot did NOT have a commercial ticket and there wasn't any problem. The latest one in California at a small EAA fly-in, the contracted bird couldn't make it so a guy volunteered to take us up in his 180. I called USPA and they were kind enough to fax out the door off paperwork. The local fed checked the logs on both pilot and plane, asked if he was getting paid...jumper-dumper said no, & we were 'good to go'. Another instance in Dayton, the fed damn near did an annual on the bird, pilot wasn't commercial rated...told the fed he was a volunteer and no questions were asked...they did check the pilots emergency rig data card though, not ours but HIS. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,395 #67 June 3, 2011 >without the FAA finding out. I think there's no question that it was legal. The more important question was - was it a good idea? I don't think it was; the odds of something going wrong were way too high. >and would like to try it someday. Proof this is good for the sport. Fatalities are good for the sport from the point of view of membership; they increase student starts. Doesn't mean they're a good thing overall, though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jlmiracle 7 #68 June 3, 2011 [reply The more important question was - was it a good idea? I don't think it was; the odds of something going wrong were way too high. . Were the odds higher on this jump as opposed to any other? there were only 2 people in the air, they managed to not collide with one another. I think that is pretty successful considering how things are going this year in the sport. Yeah, Brian doesn't have a billion jumps, but the landing area is HUGE. and yes, he fell on landing, but who here hasn't. The grass was wet. The stands were empty - the seats are colored and might look like there are people there, but there are not. Bill - it really feels that you have no point to make but just want to disagree with me, which I really dont' care if you agree with me or not. jBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. 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normiss 622 #60 June 3, 2011 Isn't it considered a stadium though? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #61 June 3, 2011 QuoteI call BS on the repacks, etc. +1"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,340 #62 June 3, 2011 QuoteQuoteA private pilot can fly jumpers as long as it is not "for hire". I'm not sure that is completely true and I'd appreciate any other pilots chiming in, but I feel if any commerce occurs during the flight, you have to have a commerical ticket. That would include coached jumps, AFF's, Tandems, and anybody using rental gear. Further splitting hairs, how about the reserve pack? What if the pilot was also a rigger who was paid to pack the reserve, but only has a private ticket. Could he fly any jumper with his reserve packjob? Taking it further, anybody who doesn't pack their own reserve is engaging in a commericial activity by skydiving, so 99% of skydives could not be flown by a private pilot. Bolded part is correct. If anybody is paying to be on the plane a commercial ticket is required. Even if it is fun jumpers paying for fuel, they are paying to be on board the plane, and a commercial ticket is required. For passengers to share costs, they and the pilot must be on the plane for a common purpose. Since the jumpers are jumping and the pilot isn't, the flight isn't for a common purpose. Who they pay and for what on the ground (repacks, rental gear, ect.) doesn't count. If a private pilot wishes to take jumpers up and let them jump out, it is perfectly legal, as long as the pilot pays for the flight."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #63 June 3, 2011 reply] Ok you all have me curious: Regardless of whether this was a demo or an exhibition or a bandit jump or whatever, there seems to be a common view here that the Raceway was all but abandoned this day. As I look at the video, am I the only one who sees a ton of people in the stands? The place looks damn well crowded. I have not been inside Daytona Raceway so I can't absolutely swear that those are people. Just looks that way to me. Anyone else? The stands were empty. Brian is sponsored by Red Bull. Video guy was a one of the Redbull guys. This was a promotional/commercial for the race in July. Nothing more, nothing less. The landing area is larger than most if not every dropzone in America. Funny how none of you commented on the "lake" and why you haven't questioned whether or not he had water gear. Several websites that are posting this video have a comment section. Most people who commented thinks is really cool and would like to try it someday. Proof this is good for the sport. This was not a bandit jump. If it was, they are some pretty stealthy guys to make a jump that close to an international airport and then air it without the FAA finding out. Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #64 June 3, 2011 QuoteIf a private pilot wishes to take jumpers up and let them jump out, it is perfectly legal, as long as the pilot pays for the flight. Yep. And even if you argue that they are all on board for a common purpose, the pilot must pay at least his pro rata share of expenses (gas, oil, fees, etc) so the Private Pilot is still barred from taking his buddies up unless the Pilot chips in his share. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DiverMike 5 #65 June 3, 2011 Thanks - your interpretation makes the most sense to me. I guess I would summarize it as: If a private pilot wishes to take jumpers up and let them jump out, it is perfectly legal, as long as the pilot pays for the flight, no commercial activity occurs on the flight, and the pilot is not compensated by trade, cash or barter. I have a private ticket and wouldn't mind paying for the plane and letting people jump out while I build hours if I got something in return (lessons, coaching, pack jobs,beer around the bonfire, etc). I clearly can't do that. Sorry for stealing the thread - back to demos For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #66 June 3, 2011 QuoteQuoteIf a private pilot wishes to take jumpers up and let them jump out, it is perfectly legal, as long as the pilot pays for the flight. Yep. And even if you argue that they are all on board for a common purpose, the pilot must pay at least his pro rata share of expenses (gas, oil, fees, etc) so the Private Pilot is still barred from taking his buddies up unless the Pilot chips in his share. I think it all depends on how the local Fizzdough wants to interpret the wording. I've done literally dozens of demos where the pilot did NOT have a commercial ticket and there wasn't any problem. The latest one in California at a small EAA fly-in, the contracted bird couldn't make it so a guy volunteered to take us up in his 180. I called USPA and they were kind enough to fax out the door off paperwork. The local fed checked the logs on both pilot and plane, asked if he was getting paid...jumper-dumper said no, & we were 'good to go'. Another instance in Dayton, the fed damn near did an annual on the bird, pilot wasn't commercial rated...told the fed he was a volunteer and no questions were asked...they did check the pilots emergency rig data card though, not ours but HIS. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,395 #67 June 3, 2011 >without the FAA finding out. I think there's no question that it was legal. The more important question was - was it a good idea? I don't think it was; the odds of something going wrong were way too high. >and would like to try it someday. Proof this is good for the sport. Fatalities are good for the sport from the point of view of membership; they increase student starts. Doesn't mean they're a good thing overall, though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #68 June 3, 2011 [reply The more important question was - was it a good idea? I don't think it was; the odds of something going wrong were way too high. . Were the odds higher on this jump as opposed to any other? there were only 2 people in the air, they managed to not collide with one another. I think that is pretty successful considering how things are going this year in the sport. Yeah, Brian doesn't have a billion jumps, but the landing area is HUGE. and yes, he fell on landing, but who here hasn't. The grass was wet. The stands were empty - the seats are colored and might look like there are people there, but there are not. Bill - it really feels that you have no point to make but just want to disagree with me, which I really dont' care if you agree with me or not. jBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,395 #69 June 3, 2011 >Were the odds higher on this jump as opposed to any other? Yes. >there were only 2 people in the air, they managed to not collide with >one another. Yes. We had two jumpers jump while pretty drunk one day back in NY. They didn't collide with each other. That's still a very bad idea. "They didn't collide with each other" does not equal "it's a good idea." >it really feels that you have no point to make but just want to disagree with me Nope. My point is that demo jumps are not just like any other jumps. A jump into a stadium, speedway, city park etc etc is not just as safe as a jump into a landing area at a DZ. It is MUCH more dangerous, and low time jumpers should wait until they have the experience to do them safely. That's why there are specific USPA rules for demos. And I don't really care if you agree with me or not either. I do care that the people who organize demos do - which, for the most part, they do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LukeAikins 0 #70 June 4, 2011 I hardly ever check in on Dropezone.com but I was sure that this was going to come up and wanted to see all the comments. I love the gossip. I set this whole thing up and have taken Brian on all but 3 of his jumps. I jumped through all of the hoops including clearing this with USPA. I am surprised no one has pointed out the large lake in the middle of the track and no water gear to be seen. It was called a dz for the day and it was a photo shoot. I have had many of the same type of landing over the years. Yes he flared a little late but when I landed in front of him on that one I must have slid 170ft almost taking a knee. I think it is a great promotion for our sport any time you get that many eyes on skydiving in a positive way it helps us all. Luke Aikins Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LukeAikins 0 #71 June 4, 2011 I like the trash talking though lets pull Vickers license and his instructors too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #72 June 4, 2011 QuoteI hardly ever check in on Dropezone.com but I was sure that this was going to come up and wanted to see all the comments. I love the gossip. I set this whole thing up and have taken Brian on all but 3 of his jumps. I jumped through all of the hoops including clearing this with USPA. I am surprised no one has pointed out the large lake in the middle of the track and no water gear to be seen. It was called a dz for the day and it was a photo shoot. I have had many of the same type of landing over the years. Yes he flared a little late but when I landed in front of him on that one I must have slid 170ft almost taking a knee. I think it is a great promotion for our sport any time you get that many eyes on skydiving in a positive way it helps us all. Luke Aikins Well, looks like a few folks have a bit of egg on their faces. I have known Brian for a few years, back when he was still in High School and driving his family owned Nationwide Car, the #40 AMP/Army sponsored car, we talked about him jumping. Daytona is huge and since all the paperwork was in T's crossed I's dotted etc we can let this rest. Tell Brian I say "Hi". MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SansSuit 1 #73 June 4, 2011 Quote It was called a dz for the day and it was a photo shoot. Thanks for the explanation. I do have a couple questions. What was the size of the actual landing area? Secondly, how does one get a location that arguably meets at least some of the requirements for a demo jump, declared a dropzone for a day? I'm not trying to start anything, just looking for information.Peace, -Dawson. http://www.SansSuit.com The Society for the Advancement of Naked Skydiving Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjames 2 #74 June 6, 2011 Skydivers dissing skydivers...next please. I think if you had that jump under your belt everything would be A-Ok... I wouldn't mind jumping into Daytona Speed Way,any-day anytime; people watching or not :-) Good bad or evil, cool jump! Closest I got was a 10 way sunset jump on the beach during the w/e "Willing To Fly" was released in Daytona area. Never bent/broke any regs/rules eh? So~K, if it hadn't been you posting someone else would have. QuoteDoes anyone else see anything wrong here? http://msn.foxsports.com/nascar/story/NASCAR-driver-Brian-Vickers-parachutes-into-Daytona-Speedway-060111 "exit fast, fly smooth, dock soft and smile" 'nother james Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjames 2 #75 June 6, 2011 BTW, Brian owes BEER! Lots of it. That was a huge 1st "exit fast, fly smooth, dock soft and smile" 'nother james Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
