Universal Signals between TIs & Camera Flyers

[jumprun1 0]

I am researching some ideas on signal communication between TIs & camera flyers. If something goes wrong with the TI gear, it seems to be instinct to point ~ which results in a ??? response. Some answers so far:
Long spot ~ open high CF extends thumb & forefinger for a capital L. Could also be construed as LOSER!
If something is wrong with gear that is equivalent ~ CF (or TI) can point @ their own gear in location of concern, then point @ Skydiver with potential problem.
The issue is that a Tandem System also has a drogue, drogue bridle, attachment system & student on front and the CF does not.
Are there any TIs or CFs out there who have had issues that needed to be communicated & any ideas on signals that can become universal?
Blue ones!

[bigorangemd 0]

If the spot is long I'll never know it until I flip back belly to earth. I just have to trust the TI notices and deploys high for me (which they do). I never see the ground until after their deployment and go off timing. When I flip over and look at my alti. and it still says 5k+ I know to look for DZ and pull high.

[davelepka 4]

I think you're reaching a little here. There are a couple of universal hand signals, and pointing at something is one of them.

Problem with the gear? Point at it. Big problem with the gear? Point at it over and over while backing up and shaking your head. Problem so big they need to pull immediately, add in a wave off as you back away, and they'll get the message.

You can't really get more specific than that. Let's say you see a problem with the drouge bridle, like it's frayed just above the 3-ring and getting ready to snap. There's no way in hell for a TI to see that, and no way in hell for you to have a hand signal ready for that exact scenario. The best you can do is alert them there is a problem, point to the general area, and let the TI do their thing.

Long spots are one area to consider, however, I have better success simply discussing it in the door before exit. Like any good jumper, I'm watching the group before me exit, and also checking the spot. If it's long, simply lean back toward the approaching TI, and say, 'long spot, can you pull high?'. Then I'll usualyl back that up with some 'meaningful' eye contact and an altimeter tap toward the bottom end as a reminder.

I'm of the opinion that communication in freefall is limited to some general ideas or feeliings. How you point at something, and the look in your eyes says a lot about the situation. It's way easier to manage than trying to establish a collection of hand signals for all to remember.

The other thing about hand signals is that not everyone knows how to throw them. With the exception of some AFF-Is, in an actual emergency situation, most people will qiuckly and franticaly flash hand signals than nobody can understand. Another reason why simple is better.

[davelepka 4]

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If the spot is long I'll never know it until I flip back belly to earth

What your saying is that you get in the door, and lead your tandem to do the same without looking at where you're at? (It's not really a question, that is what you said, I'm just phrasing it that way so you see the error)

Don't be so impressed with your sweet backflying skills that you forget to check the spot.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Dave are you suggesting that each and every group on a large aircraft stop and check the spot before climbing out? Sounds like a good way to ensure that the last tandem out doesn't need to check; they know they are long because everyone else took so fucking long.

[davelepka 4]

I'm suggesting that the first jumper to climb out in each group should be in a position so that as soon as the door is clear, they can look out at the previous group and check the spot. It doesn't take much more than a second or two to confirm that you are where you want to be.

It's each jumper responsibility to check the spot before they jump. What happens when the spot is long, and you're too far from the airport? Not every pilot is assigned max distance from the airport to allow jumping. Seeing as that distance is variable from day to day, and from jumper to jumper, most pilots will hit the green light, and just keep fling the plane until it's empty or someone says 'go around'.

Given that, how do you know when the spot has gone too long? How do you know when the pilot blew it and gave the green light .5 too late? The first half of the load can probably still go, but that last half is hosed. How do they know when they're hosed?

In this case, were talking about tandems. There's certainly more than enough time between tandems for me to confirm the spot. If we're long and pulling high, that gives us even more time because we're already pulling high. When you're too long you take the go-around.

In general and in my exmaple, I do think that one jumper from each group should confirm the spot is still good before climbing out. This isn't rocket science, and nobody is calling out corrections to the cockpit. You know the jumprun direction, you know the spot, and you know the exit order. If the pilot is giving the light .5 past on a heading of 270, and you're in the 4th group out, you can expect to be west of the DZ about .8 or a mile. All you do in the door is double check that guess against reality.

If what you see is what you expect, climb on out. If it's not what you expect, yes, take the time confirm your location and proximity to the DZ. If the pilot gave the light early, you have extra time to determine that your spot is good (not what you expected, but good).

If the pilot was late on the light, then yeah, take the time and make the go/no-go call for your group. If you're already long mid-pack, someone on that plane is going around. Nobody cares if it's one, two or three groups that go around, so take the time to ensure you're making the right call for your group based who you're jumping with, what you're doing, and what are you over in the case of an off field landing.

[bigorangemd 0]

Wish I had sweet backflying skills. I belly fly until opening then go to back to film opening but even on belly I'm looking up. True enough I don't spot. I have the luxury of jumping at a place where the pilot has been dropping jumpers so long the spot is nearly always good. Not saying I shouldn't double check but I don't. Never have landed off as our routine is the TI's watch the spot for us and adjust to pull high if needed.

[dragon2 0]

If I'm not sure about the spot while in freefall (because of ahem a bit of haze) I'll point down and "ask". TM checks spot and pulls high or nods for spot OK.
I often ask the TM do do a 360 while I go back&up, giving me a nice visual + a good oppertunity to check the spot should I feel the need

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[davelepka 4]

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I belly fly until opening then go to back to film opening but even on belly I'm looking up.

Got it. That's where you can work in a 'pop up' into your freefall routine.

I like to combine the pop up with an orbit. I'll drive around the tandem, and pop up to a height about 2 or 3 feet above the tandem. Coorditante it so the peak of the pop up occurs when you are directly behind the tandem, at which point you begin to sink back down. By the time you are back 'front and center', you're back in your slot. This gives you, and the cameras, a chance to look down a see where you are. The cameras don't really care, but the perspective for the student is a nice change up.

I know that low and in front is the 'universal' tandem video slot, but the main reason for that is that the original Vector tandem hung the tandem head low in drougefall. You needed to get down and look up, or all you could see was the top of their head. Now that tandems hang more or less level in drougefall, the camera flyer has more flexibility. So in addition to the 'low and looking up' shots, I always try to get a couple 'high and looking down', and 'on level' with the horizon in the back ground. It adds variety and shows multiple perspectives of the event. In real time it only takes a few seconds of manuvering to get the shots, but the stills capture the angle and last 'forever'.

THE DISCLAIMER - know and understand the 'cone of death' that extends above and below the tandem. If you pop up or use an orbit, you need to back off to stay out of 'the cone'. Never get above the tandem, or even close. You can be higher than the tandem, as long as you back off an appropriate amount realtive to the height difference. Pop up 2 or 3 feet, back off a couple feet. Find yourself 100 feet above the tandem, you better be 100 feet out as well.

Also, if you intend to use an orbit, check in with the TI ahead of time. Let them know your intentions so they're on the same page you are. The first couple might not be 'quick and clean', and what that means to the TI is that you are out of their sight line for a bit. It's a problem when that's a mystery to them, not a problem when they know what you're doing.

It's also not a good idea to use such a move on the bottom end. Try to stay 'front and center' from 7k on down, so the TI always knows where you are, and is never thinking about pulling and where you are at the same time. When it gets close to pull time, make that the only thing on the TIs mind by planting yourself right in front, and there's no question as to your whereabouts.

[jimmytavino 16]

years and years ago A few 'tuned in' TM's at our club would at SOME point shortly after doing handle checks, take a look down, while the camera person was busy working...

IF we were long... the TM would signal that fact, by flipping off the video guy... real quick.... and it didn't terribly impact the video for the student...

If we were REALLY Long... then it would be 'the double bird".. as in... "if we don't pull high, we'll be REALLY f*@#'ed"..

in this way the camera guys would know to expect the D release handle to get yanked, a bit higher than normal...
simple AND effective...

One t ime i needed to signal the TM, since i SAW the main D bag, bouncing around over the back of the pair, while they were in droguefall......Neither the Tm nor the student could feel it...

Lines were starting to undo, and so i moved right in front of the TM and pointed aggressively at him with my left hand and simulated a PC handle reach,, with my right hand,... to my Own hip.. I simulated a "pull and throw" over and over....
as in... YOU !!! Pull!!!!!
We were around 7 or 8 grand at the time. and though he later told me we wasn't sure WHY i was signaling him,, the TM DID trust me, and so he pulled the D Release handle.. they had some big time line twists, but were clear and in good shape, by 4 grand or so...THAT was an "improvised signal". but proved to be effective communication between teammates...!!! we all landed safely.

jmy
A 3914
D 12122

[Fast 0]

I like that one.

As a camera guy, if they are having some major problem that requires that they pull now the signal that I would be using is the AFF pull signal.

Point at them (You're)
Flip the bird (Fucked)
Point again (pull)

Then I would chill to see what happens and be sure to get it on video, maybe signal again if they don't get it.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[jimmytavino 16]

....maybe signal again... if they don't get it....(quote)

well then Here is where it can get interesting. What IF they don't get it??/
now what???

. the longer the fall, the less time and altitude to deal with "whatever it IS " that might be wrong... not sure just what sorta problems could present themselves. To the credit of todays packers and TMs, safe use and correct functioning of the gear , is predominantly the case a huge percentage of the time.
But if something is trailing, or something which shouldn't have,, has come Undone... what should be done???



Used to be , i woullda thought.... time to "save the day" and even now that seems what my impulse would be... EVEN though..... i wouldn't be sure of just WHAT to do....When a camera person starts taking on TM duties mid-skydive... things could get dicey... for all..

so.. today, i'd fight the urge to "join in" and would keep signaling,, stay in place as if for the deployment sequence, and BE attentive to our altitude... if they haven't deployed by a certain time.. i'm waving and pulling....and watching to see their (eventual) main or reserve deployment..
A few times while in freelfall with the drogue safely Out , some TM's i've been with have been in some turns,,, which were starting to look more like a spin!!!.... in which cases i HAve gotten dead level with them, moved in, and when the TMs thigh came by...[/shocked] planted a hand on it to stop the spin.
I've had plenty of practice in "kamikaze Relative Work ... and so was helpful to few Tm's once or twice.
hand signals, basic, understandable and KNOWN.. to all the staff.. seem like a good idea..

Do ANY of the Bigger DZs who have large staff???? employ such non verbal air to air communication...???

[jumprun1 0]

Thanx Jimmy, you have been most helpful. Not sure how the thread has gotten so off topic to discuss popping up & sweet back flying skills. ???
One of the DVDs I show my Tandem Candidates is of all the things that can go wrong ~ including one where the drogue is stretched & the bag is out & flopping around. The TI is looking around & unsure if something is wrong ~ this is the kind of situation I would like to find Universal signals for.
Certainly the CF signalling for the drogue release is good, but would like to brain storm more ~ almost like deaf sign language. Any other situations experienced by TIs or CF out there that would have benefitted from signals?
Thank you!!!

[strop45 0]

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As a camera guy, if they are having some major problem that requires that they pull now the signal that I would be using is the AFF pull signal.

Point at them (You're)
Flip the bird (Fucked)
Point again (pull)

The AFF pull signal used here is a closed fist in front of instructors face moving towards you (pull now or I'll rearrange your face) - very effective when the AFF instructor's other job is as a bouncer at a local nightclub

The usual signal used at my DZ for being deep is to point at the ground.

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[jumprun1 0]

Awesome Jimmy, that is the situation & signal that I was wondering about, thank you for sharing.
I think if we can let TI & Camera aware of what can happen & to be ready for it, just like the handle checks.
If we are prepared & nothing happens, great!
If something does happen & we can save a moment of "WTF is he/she trying to communicate" it just makes a safer world for us & our students!
Thank you!
Will include your experience with others.

[matthewcline 0]

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If the spot is long I'll never know it until I flip back belly to earth. I just have to trust the TI notices and deploys high for me (which they do). I never see the ground until after their deployment and go off timing. When I flip over and look at my alti. and it still says 5k+ I know to look for DZ and pull high.

You should know if the spot is long prior to climbing out, look down, then if it is good, climb out.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[matthewcline 0]

Quote

Dave are you suggesting that each and every group on a large aircraft stop and check the spot before climbing out? Sounds like a good way to ensure that the last tandem out doesn't need to check; they know they are long because everyone else took so fucking long.

YES, Each and every group should confirm their spot. Yes it may mean a long spot for the last Tandem, they can either go around or pull a tad higher if comfortable in their skills.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!