PLF techniques?

[AlexCrowley 0]

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>Turning before hitting the ground and PLFing stops downward
> movement but does nothing to dampen any horizontal movement -

That's right, and you don't _want_ to stop rapidly, you just want to get yourself into the right position. The position you want to end up in is the same position you see a baseball player sliding into home plate with - feet in front, sliding on one thigh. You can dissipate a lot of speed that way without injury (as baseball spectators know.)

Bill, I know you know what you're talking about, but I've tried to explain about my thoughts on terrain, sliding into home on a baseball field would seem very different than sliding in on a rough part of the LZ ....there are areas of my home LZ that I would be tempting a severe breakage sliding in due to uneven ground, small shrubs etc etc.

I do understand where you're going with this and what you're saying, and I am not dismissing the techniques that are traditional lifesavers. Perhaps I should have started this conversation talking about enhanced PFL-type techniques.

Edited to add: I really didnt think I was suggesting anything revolutionary. But it does kinda suck when people with 4000 jumps are telling you that you're wrong ;0)

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[AlexCrowley 0]

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No kidding: there are freefly coaches, RW coaches, canopy control coaches, but no PLF coaches! I would take paid coaching from somebody who does PLF really well (like you do). I do want my teacher show PLF in real action, though - jump and PLF downwind landing, half-brakes/weak flare landing, rear riser landing, etc.

You can become Scott Miller of PLF!!!!!!!

Mods, please understand the next is not a threat, nor is one implied.

Veter, I would be more than happy to have you come up to our dojo here and do some training with you.

From your posts it seems obvious that you're someone who thrives on asking questions, gaining new knowledge and is always open to people's ideas and opinions, especially those whom you could consider a mentor or veteran. As such you may be just the person needed to bridge the gap between my skills in bumping and your skydiving expertise. While I build up my jump numbers we can work on a crash course of bump training that every pupil here at the school goes through.

With dilligence you could learn what I'm talking about in the space of 4 or 5 training sessions. After learning these skills we'll put them to the test by having Psycho Mike and Brutal Bob Evans (both 6 6+ and 250lb+) assist you by providing the momentum you'll need to take brief flight and land unharmed.........or on your head, its a lot like freefall, you have to also learn how to move your body in midair so you dont snap your neck when things go out of control.

The offer remains open whenever you're ready, if ever you're in Rhode Island.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[billvon 2,909]

>sliding into home on a baseball field would seem very different
>than sliding in on a rough part of the LZ ....

Yes, it's definitely more dangerous. But if a jumper is not comfortable enough with his accuracy skills to ensure he's landing in a decent area, there's no way he should be jumping a canopy that requires a high speed PLF to land safely. If the issue devolves to "how do I do something to make sure I can land my 1.6 to 1 Velocity in a rocky area downwind?" the answer is "go for a tree," not "do a good PLF." And the result will probably be broken bones. The best time to decide you don't want those broken bones is probably before you sign the check for the smaller canopy, not at 40 feet flying downwind over a parking lot. PLF's of any flavor, high speed _or_ low speed, are last ditch methods of reducing injury during bad landings, and can only do so much to protect you. In my experience, rotating at high speeds (i.e. standard PLF's or any sort of a roll) leads to broken necks.

[JohnMitchell 16]

IMHO, Plf's work great for coming in straight down with little forward speed. Coming in with lots of forward speed and low rate of descent, I'll slide on one thigh or the other.

High rate of descent and high forward speed? You're f#*ked.

Haven't people been killed flipping end over end trying to do a high speed PLF?

[freeryde13 0]

cool question that i've wondered about, asked about, and had to deal with on a few ocasions. suffice to say that that the taught plf might be the safest way for someone who hasn't had training in martial arts roll outs and slaps and what not. i would love to some how do some brainstorming and practice on some different techniques for plf's. i wonder what would be the best way to do that. maybe some kind of a swinging harness over mats? on the few jumps i needed a roll out on i don't know exactly what i did, just instict took over.

i know my instinct is to land with my feet apart and bent and then roll over to my right side and roll out until i am slow enough to slap out. i guess the slap out takes the energy to the arm and hand instead of the nech and head?

bottom line is no one is responsible for me surviving but me so i'll do what i feel will keep me alive first and injury free second.

_________________________________________

people see me as a challenge to their balance

[petetheladd 0]

You see Landing speed has a vertical and horizontal component. Hopefully both are brought to 0 smoothly at the end of the landing.

Initially, the PLF was designed for landing rounds where most of the speed in the vertical and using a kiss approach (keep it simple stupid).
It also figures use the largest shock absorbers first and sacrifice them if need be i.e. a broken leg is better than a busted spine is better than a smashed cranium.

I have been involved in martial arts(judo) for about 25 years and find the traditional PLF fine for when the canopy drops out etc and you plunge downwards. it has saved my ass a number of times.

However, when I have had occassion to come in with the horizontal component being high and need to fall, I have ended up rolling it off ( as my judo reactions take over ).

However, 5 mins on an FJC would in no way prepare a new jumper for a judo roll type reaction to a high horizontal speed landing and so the sliding in the PLF landing is again kiss based and easier to teach.


Imagine a 3 month class, twice a week for an hour just to get someone signed off on their rolls so they can make a jump.

No, Not without incident

[EvilLurker 2]

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Imagine a 3 month class, twice a week for an hour just to get someone signed off on their rolls so they can make a jump.

Yes, there go all your students, and eventually your DZ. It might be better added as a "step" to getting a B license, then another for a C, etc. It would make sense, you're being allowed to fly higher performance canopies with higher approach speeds and more potential to cripple you during a botched landing. The current PLF training is sufficient for the majority of people landing a lightly loaded square canopy (in most cases), then that's it, you get no more instruction/practice unless you personally find someone and request it (and I've never seen that happen, though I admit it probably does, to a small degree). That leaves a person in a bad situation trying a 60 year old technique at a bad time (and possibly for the first time), and getting busted up. We should be a bit more progressive than that, without going so far overboard we drive away the first-time jumpers. Just an idea.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Bill, I know you know what you're talking about, but I've tried to explain about my thoughts on terrain, sliding into home on a baseball field would seem very different than sliding in on a rough part of the LZ ....there are areas of my home LZ that I would be tempting a severe breakage sliding in due to uneven ground, small shrubs etc etc.

Alex- speaking from my experience with WL's around 1.0 and not always completing the flare.

There is a bit of a difference between a slide on nice grass and vaguely plowed fields - you stop a lot faster on the latter. And get a lot of thorns/stickers in the shoes and socks. Do your best to avoid really ugly landing pitches.

While ballplayers do occasionally mess up their legs on slides, they're also wearing spikes and have a fixed base and [potentially] defender trying to stop em short.

[goose491 0]

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However, 5 mins on an FJC would in no way prepare a new jumper for a judo roll type reaction to a high horizontal speed landing....

I understand what you are saying but the FJC is in no way preparing them for a high horizontal speed landing to begin with. If your landing under a Manta requires a PLF, it is either because 1) you flared too high and (hopefully) held the toggles down until impact, or 2) because you flared too late or not at all. Althought the latter would mean more forward speed then the first, we are still talking minimal amounts under a student canopy. No more than a standard PLF is required.

I would suggest learning and practicing more of a roll or slide as your canopy choice becomes more aggressive. But see, at that point, it is an experienced jumper learning safety technique which applies to the way he/she skydives. IMO, there is no point drilling this into students (IOW drilling students into the ground) when it is clear they will not be using this technique for a while to come.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[LivingLegend 0]

Strange you never heard of that. At RAF Brize Norton they spend a lot of time teaching you not to allow whip lash wack you head back either by "chin on your chest" or "hold your head with neck muscles shrug" techniques.
You , and everybody you watched must have good technique.

________________________________________

1.618 !

[AlexCrowley 0]

This is very much a case of my lack of knowledge leading to a larger discussion I think.

My original question wasnt so much about the FJC but techniques in general. I spent the weekend talking to various people (coaches, instructors and TSO) at my dropzone, including Scott Miller (who's basic canopy course I was taking at the time). I understand a little more now that the FJC PLF is really just something to get you through the basics and that it's expected that you'll develop you're own PLFs as you progress. Having my background I guess I'm just a little further ahead on the subject.

The idea of learning additional methods later seems somewhat logical considering the other special training thats covered (night and water), but I think difficult to standardize generally.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[simulacra 0]

About a week ago I started ground school and today we practised the PLF, the only time I ever managed to do things correctly was when the instructor held me by my wrists and somewhat simulated the upward force of the canopy, at all other times I got banged up since I have no coordination in my legs at all, I just dont know what's happening when I start falling.

At a later stage I even managed to bang the back of my head onto the linoleum floor so hard that I got a few seconds memory lapse.

It kinda feels like I want to find alternatives to the PLF since I can't seem to get that damn hip-to-shoulder roll into muscle memory...

[frost 1]

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From your posts it seems obvious that you're someone who thrives on asking questions, gaining new knowledge and is always open to people's ideas and opinions, especially those whom you could consider a mentor or veteran.

LOL thats a good one!

SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.

[skr 1]

>and dispersing the energy by rolling over my shoulder
>(like a foward somersault but rolling from right shoulder
>to left hip).

This sounds like what I do.

I learned the PLF motion from ex-paratroopers, but when
there is much horizontal speed I do it in the manner of
the judo roll where you're going forward and you sort of
roll up your arm and across your shoulder and diagonally
down your back to your hip and slap the mat.

Except I don't stick my arm out or slap the ground.

I do the standard feet and knees together and lightly
up the leg while bending at the waist and twisting
into it to make it happen and across the shoulder and
diagonally down the back.

I never hit my head because I tuck my chin and do the
bending twisting make it happen motion.


I think sliding in is a really bad idea, but people are doing
it because nobody is teaching them how to do the PLF /
judo roll motion.

( Insert standard rant about the quality of some of
( today's training here.

Skr

[AlexCrowley 0]

yeah, exactly what I was talking about. It's tough to communicate to someone who's not done this exactly *why* your head/neck aren't in harms way using this method.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[mikeat10500 12]

[steve1 5]

I know little or nothing about the rolls you describe. They may work fine if someone has enough training in them.

I disagree about PLF's not being good for high speed horizontal landings. We used to jump rounds a lot on windy days. Some of those landings were in excess of twenty MPH. Knowing how to do a really good PLF is what saved me on those jumps.

I wonder if new jumpers get enough training in how to do a proper PLF these days. Even new jumpers in the 70's got a minimal amount of training in PLF's. Jumping off a table a few times isn't enough.

I believe the army airborne school has the best PLF training to be found anywhere. Back in the olden days they used a swing land trainer. (I think it's still used at Ft. Benning today.) After stepping off an elevated platform you would swing back and forth several times and then your instructor would drop you into the ground. You practiced this over and over from different angles. You would hit feet and knees together, twist to your side (keeping your elbows in) (chin tucked to your chest) and then flip over on the back of your shoulders.

I believe this is a very valuable technique to learn. In Jump School you spend two weeks practicing these until you could do them perfect from every direction.

I'd like to say I never hit my head. I remember a lot of rear PLF's where I couldn't spin to my side fast enough and did just that. Some of these landings were more feet, rear, and head landings. Noone jumped without a heavy duty helmet back then. I learned some other methods of getting to my side with more experience. But I still relied on doing a basic PLF.

As far as sliding in a modern canopy, I think this works quite well. Maybe they aren't the best for all conditions but I did a lot of them this past summer. My ankle was severely messed up due to a low turn and I had a hard time walking let alone running out a landing. On windless mornings at Lost Prairie, I slid in almost every landing. Mad John was doing the same thing. (I noticed he had a limp this year too.)

So again your method might work better for you, but I'm going to stick with PLF's. It's just too hard to teach an old dog new tricks....Steve1

[mjosparky 4]

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Do you think you have any credibility without filling your profile, Mr Pornstart?

You can check The Ranch DZ for his credibility rating. And check with them if there any slots left in the Dead Pool.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[immanence 0]

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I disagree about PLF's not being good for high speed horizontal landings. We used to jump rounds a lot on windy days. Some of those landings were in excess of twenty MPH. Knowing how to do a really good PLF is what saved me on those jumps

Windy days on rounds you go backwards. Not part of the jump I relished, but I could deal with it. It was zero winds that were the problem, hence this whole discussion of forward PLFs. I remember them on rounds on nil-wind days. It sucked, big time

I'd love to take an optional course at a DZ on various ways of falling forward under hairy conditions. If skydivers could take a few tips from legends like The Clawmaster, The Undertaker or Rick Flair, why not?

I wouldn't have students do this, though. I can't imagine the forward speed of a Manta can ever be that great. It might be useful for people who are working on their landing skills under faster canopies. The consolation of a mucked up swoop would be a gymnastic double flip somersault. We could have Wuffos equipped with scorecards giving marks out of 10

"where danger is appears also that which saves ..." Friedrich Holderlin, 'Patmos'

[steve1 5]

Windy days on rounds you go backwards. Not part of the jump I relished, but I could deal with it. It was zero winds that were the problem, hence this whole discussion of forward PLFs. I remember them on rounds on nil-wind days. It sucked, big time

I'd love to take an optional course at a DZ on various ways of falling forward under hairy conditions. If skydivers could take a few tips from legends like The Clawmaster, The Undertaker or Rick Flair, why not?

That's a good point. I've got in the habit of sliding in some landings rather than PLFing or some type of flip. Sliding it in on uneven ground might be a recipe for injury too. So maybe I shouldn't be saying that's the best thing to do.

So that has me thinking about a forward PLF. A forward PLF works great as long as there isn't a lot of speed built up. It's really hard to twist to your side fast enough to do one if you're going a 100 mph under a hot canopy on a calm day. Same thing with a rear PLF. I could never spin to my side fast enough on high wind days under a rag, so I would face slightly cross wind just so I could do a good PLF.

Coming in really fast under a little canopy, may again be really hard to PLF. (I guess I finally do get the point!) So if sliding is out...maybe some type of roll could be used. I think this might be disasterous though, if done incorrectly. I'd sure hate to land, feet, face, then back. Maybe Hay Stack Calhoon could do it in the ring, but I'm not so sure an old fart like me could do it.

I know on windy days (on rounds) you are supposed to be going backward on landing. When I first started jumping in the army our T-10's had no modification at all. You'd pull down on your risers and slip (very slightly) into the wind. So it was possible to have a very fast forward PLF eve if the wind was blowing hard. That is probably the reason we spent so much time learning a forward PLF in jump school.....Steve1

[AlexCrowley 0]

Would swooping be more exciting if you had to duck a clothesline? It would look great on video if you didnt duck in time.

The fact that I want to get enough jumps so i can start videoing some of this stuff safely is pretty absurd.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[bob.dino 1]

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Would swooping be more exciting if you had to duck a clothesline?

What about the parachute? Does it have to duck too?