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blue24

Crowded skies, Landing...Safety?

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At the dropzone this weekend...the skies were very crowded with skydivers. What do you do safety wise to protect yourself from those with too aggressive, or poor canopy skills...and how do you handle crowded landing areas as you approach the landing area?

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At the dropzone this weekend...the skies were very crowded with skydivers. What do you do safety wise to protect yourself from those with too aggressive, or poor canopy skills...and how do you handle crowded landing areas as you approach the landing area?



If I feel like I'm in over my head, I don't jump. If I observe bad canopy behavior from the ground, I don't jump. If I see a cluster-fuck happening over the landing area while I'm already in the air, I land out.
Owned by Remi #?

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At the dropzone this weekend...the skies were very crowded with skydivers. What do you do safety wise to protect yourself from those with too aggressive, or poor canopy skills...and how do you handle crowded landing areas as you approach the landing area?



Plan ahead. From opening read what people are doing. At 3k you can start to get an idea of where people are and if they are on smaller canopies than you. For the most part you can hang back in brakes and let the chaos subside. If the spot is good enough use the time to fly out and away from jump run to give you separation while everyone else gets down and then come in behind everyone. Land further out or in the alternate landing area.

Try and use the time up high as effectively as possible so that your final approach is as stress free as possible.
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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As a new guy, would you advise that we find a nice upwind spot and to into deep breaks and hang out until everyone has landed? Or should we be more aggressive?

My home DZ has a good number of tandems on any given load very few fun jumpers I've practiced both with the understanding of the jump masters.

I have to say on my newly downsized 220 Navigator, I was on a 260 and a 280 before that, I've noticed that "holding" is a bit more sketchy than before requiring a more steady input so as to keep the parachute inflated.

Being aggressive, spiraling down under the traffic, though a bit more fun takes away from any "learning" one does at altitude.

Suggestions for the new guys?

What has worked for you?
Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

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As a new guy, would you advise that we find a nice upwind spot and to into deep breaks and hang out until everyone has landed? Or should we be more aggressive?

My home DZ has a good number of tandems on any given load very few fun jumpers I've practiced both with the understanding of the jump masters.

I have to say on my newly downsized 220 Navigator, I was on a 260 and a 280 before that, I've noticed that "holding" is a bit more sketchy than before requiring a more steady input so as to keep the parachute inflated.

Being aggressive, spiraling down under the traffic, though a bit more fun takes away from any "learning" one does at altitude.

Suggestions for the new guys?

What has worked for you?



Hey I am still a newbie and hopefully an old salt will chip in.

But I would avoid spiraling. We are in-experienced meaning that we take longer to process what we see and react to it. So slower is better.

Points to consider though.

1) AFF students and tandems will probably be higher and slower than you. Tandems aren't really a worry as they are more experienced than us.

2) Watch out for the next load if there are multiple planes or you are high.

3) Don't rush to downsize. Remember the SIM recommends a 1.0:1 wing loading as the MAXIMUM for A & B licenses.
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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I'm 175lbs so I'm not at 1:1 yet.

However I do have to say back when I was on the 280 I could just find a nice thermal and hang out all day untill the tandems landed.
That was nice. But now that I'm on the 220 that seems to be a little harder to do.
Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

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The DZ that I call home now lets out Tandems @ 10.5k and funjumpers & students out @ 13.5k. The extra 3k feet of climbing gives everyone pretty good separation and the students get out last and pull high which gives them a clear pattern (9 times out of 10). When I got off AFF & AFF coached jumps @ 15 jumps, I was a little nervous about the loads with lots of fun jumpers. After a couple of jumps I'm a little less nervous but much more edgy and keep my head on a constant swivel.

I make sure I don't spiral and even watched a guy get chewed out this past weekend by a couple of older jumpers after he spiraled in the landing pattern.

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The DZ that I call home now lets out Tandems @ 10.5k and funjumpers & students out @ 13.5k.
SMART!
Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

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As a new guy, would you advise that we find a nice upwind spot and to into deep breaks and hang out until everyone has landed?



That's a good option. The only way a collision can happen is if two parachutes are in the same place at the same time. To avoid collisions you have two options: land in a different place, or land at a different time.

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I have to say on my newly downsized 220 Navigator, I was on a 260 and a 280 before that, I've noticed that "holding" is a bit more sketchy than before requiring a more steady input so as to keep the parachute inflated.



You might be using too much brakes to hold. Your goal should be a minimal descent rate, which may occur with significantly less than full brakes. The best way to find this sweet spot is to do a two-way canopy jump with an experienced canopy pilot. You can also work on finding the sweet spot yourself by making a series of dedicated canopy jumps. A canopy control course should also cover this topic.

- Dan G

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As a new guy, would you advise that we find a nice upwind spot and to into deep breaks and hang out until everyone has landed? Or should we be more aggressive?



Find your place in the natural order of things.

There will be people who exited after you who will be landing before you, by virtue of smaller canopy size, more aggressive landings, and/or just being Muppets with sawdust for brains.

There may be people who exited before you that will be landing later - maybe they opened higher, maybe they're women small enough for you to date under relatively large canopies.

You'll be more relaxed and have less risk of a canopy collision if you descend slower or faster so that the inevitable passing occurs at a higher altitude.

There will also be people who exited before you with some combination of more speed and less altitude that should land before you, and ones who exited later with more altitude/less speed that should naturally land after you. Don't disturb that order.

Getting closer to halfway between the landing times of people before and after you will give you more padding.

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Well, Im pretty new (again) and since my canopy flies and handles like a school bus, Im able to let everyone else get below me and land usually before I even start my pattern. While Im flying, I keep my head on a swivel and look at it the same way I do while Im riding a motorcycle in heavy traffic......they either dont see me or they're trying to kill me....stay out of their way, make sure they see me and proceed as safely as I can.
PHinz up!!! We are the people our parents warned us about!!

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As a new guy, would you advise that we find a nice upwind spot and to into deep breaks and hang out until everyone has landed? Or should we be more aggressive...Being aggressive, spiraling down under the traffic



Please don't try to spiral down to "get past" traffic.

An example would be if you and I were in the air at the same time. My canopy in full flight would probably come out of the sky in full flight at about the same decent rate as you spiraling. So all you will do is loose track of other canopies and create a significant amount of canopy congestion.

Think of canopy traffic as a school of fish. We have to find our place in that school of fish. That begins before we get on the plane. Look around in the loading area and with a little bit of time in the sport you'll be able to pick out most of the people who have a higher and lower wingloading than you. You'll probably be able to pick out which ones will probably have a more aggressive canopy and flying style as well.

The video guy with 5,000 jumps, a tiny rig and a chest strap extension...well, he is probably jumping something highly loaded and ground hungry.

After you open, take the opportunity to do a couple of flat turns to check traffic. Look around, but also below you, behind you and it is very important to check above and behind you (relative to the wind and direction of canopy traffic back to the DZ). That is where you'll find that lone tandem video guy with the small canopy.

Use this time in the holding area as your approaching the entrance to the pattern to place yourself in the school of fish.


Another note: This is not the time to learn new canopy skills. This is the time to fly defensively and safely. If you want to go learn or practice a canopy skill (stalls, riser turns, what ever you want), please conduct a dedicated jump where you have more clear airspace (like a solo hop-n-pop or altitude clear and pull).
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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Think of canopy traffic as a school of fish. We have to find our place in that school of fish. That begins before we get on the plane. Look around in the loading area and with a little bit of time in the sport you'll be able to pick out most of the people who have a higher and lower wingloading than you. You'll probably be able to pick out which ones will probably have a more aggressive canopy and flying style as well.




I also like to think of that part as a multi-lane highway that converges into 1 or 2 lanes, and everybody has a different kind of vehicle. So I find my logical place in the pattern and sort of claim it, or try to. I know Im landing before the school bus and the 18 wheelers. The porshes will land before me and I let them pass and do their thing.
HISPA #93
DS #419.5


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Your goal should be a minimal descent rate, which may occur with significantly less than full brakes.

Shouldn't the goal be to fit into the traffic pattern, not hang in the sky forever? This weekend I got stuck behind someone with a couple of hundred jumps in the pattern flying in half brakes. I front risered to pass him. Outside of the pattern, whatever. Once in the pattern, try to match up with what others are doing.

Also saw a demo once where 2nd to last jumper hung in brakes, forcing last jumper to do the same. The first 6 people were damn near packed by the time the last two landed. :D

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Shouldn't the goal be to fit into the traffic pattern, not hang in the sky forever? This weekend I got stuck behind someone with a couple of hundred jumps in the pattern flying in half brakes. I front risered to pass him. Outside of the pattern, whatever. Once in the pattern, try to match up with what others are doing.

Also saw a demo once where 2nd to last jumper hung in brakes, forcing last jumper to do the same. The first 6 people were damn near packed by the time the last two landed.



Of course you're right. I should have been more specific. I was addressing Shah's comment that it seemed like it was hard for him to hold in brakes without stalling the canopy.

There is a place and time for minimum descent rate, the pattern is generally not that time, although it could be. Imagine what could have happened if the last jumper on the demo you mentioned hadn't known how to slow his descent. The broader point is that the canopy pilot has a lot of tools that can control not only where he lands, but when. Learning to use those tools most effectively is important.

- Dan G

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