Poor Tracking Skills in Europe ??

[kkeenan 13]

I am certain that the thread title will be considered inflammatory. The actual title should have been, "Is opening separation given more emphasis in other parts of the world, or is it just coincidence that there were two collisions this weekend on FS jumps in UK and Italy." That would not fit in the title block.

Now that you know the question, please discuss amongst yourselves. All nationalistic sentiments and insults of American jumpers will, as always, be accepted gracefully.

Kevin Keenan
Titusville, FL, USA

[timmyfitz 0]

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I am certain that the thread title will be considered inflammatory. The actual title should have been, "Is opening separation given more emphasis in other parts of the world, or is it just coincidence that there were two collisions this weekend on FS jumps in UK and Italy." That would not fit in the title block.

Now that you know the question, please discuss amongst yourselves. All nationalistic sentiments and insults of American jumpers will, as always, be accepted gracefully.

Kevin Keenan
Titusville, FL, USA

Does this happen every weekend in the UK and Italy? When was the last time it happened? You do know that the UK and Italy are two separate countries with different cultures, different languages and separated by a few miles?

Coincidence...yes.

[flipper 0]

Nope ... Shit tracking happens everywhere

[rdufokker 6]

I think he is looking for discussion on different techniques oversees. Like do some pull in place and others stagger openings with less emphasis on tracking techniques. I have not jumped oversees so can't compare. So Timmyfitz, if you have jumped in different areas of the world please enlighten with contrast or comparison, and enough of the 2nd grade geography.

Burke

Irony: "the History and Trivia section hijacked by the D.B. Cooper thread"

[kallend 1,621]

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I am certain that the thread title will be considered inflammatory. The actual title should have been, "Is opening separation given more emphasis in other parts of the world, or is it just coincidence that there were two collisions this weekend on FS jumps in UK and Italy." That would not fit in the title block.

Now that you know the question, please discuss amongst yourselves. All nationalistic sentiments and insults of American jumpers will, as always, be accepted gracefully.

Kevin Keenan
Titusville, FL, USA

No, it's NOT a coincidence. Insufficient emphasis is placed on tracking.

When was the last time you saw someone axed from an event because they tracked badly?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jakee 1,254]

In my experience, the importance of tracking well is often emphasised in briefs and such for organised skydives, but what is almost completely neglected is making sure each skydiver learns what 'tracking well' actually means.

I was at a DZ recently where an organised event for beginner FS (8/10/12 ways-ish) was going on. The organiser was pulling in place, and I happened to see the video debrief of a jump with one participant turning about 270 from the centre and tracking about 3 feet. The organiser had a long chat with him after the main debrief. I later overheard the jumper chatting to a mate in the packing hall saying something like "He was talking about getting really thin which I thought was a bit wierd. I usually track really wide with my knees bent and it's always been fine before." Who on earth let that guy out into unsupervised skydiving with that level of ability?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[HighJB 0]

I have to disagree, we pay attention in tracking abilities, at least in France (The fatalities in Italy were 2 French) but I'm sure it's the same all around EU.

And yes I have seen people been kicked out of FS camp because of their poor tracking ability.

ça passe ou ça frotte

[kallend 1,621]

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I have to disagree, we pay attention in tracking abilities, at least in France (The fatalities in Italy were 2 French) but I'm sure it's the same all around EU.

And yes I have seen people been kicked out of FS camp because of their poor tracking ability.

I've not observed visiting Europeans to be any better at tracking than US skydivers. Some good, some lousy, most somewhere in between.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[andreeb77 0]

+1 (Germany)

[skyjumpenfool 2]

We might ask the camera flyers doing large formations about this?? They pull in place and watch the rest. I'm betting they have some valuable info. And, I'm betting it's an individual issue as opposed to national/cultural thing.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[timmyfitz 0]

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I think he is looking for discussion on different techniques oversees. Like do some pull in place and others stagger openings with less emphasis on tracking techniques. I have not jumped oversees so can't compare. So Timmyfitz, if you have jumped in different areas of the world please enlighten with contrast or comparison, and enough of the 2nd grade geography.

Burke

I think I made it very clear, obviously not for you.

It is not happening with any frequency that anyone with any intelligence could point a finger and say "this is because people in Europe have bad tracking skills". The last two incidents are just coincidences not a reoccurring theme. When was the last time this happened for each country? How often does this happen world wide?

You can usually find a few people with poor tracking skills at just about any DZ, whether it's in Italy, the UK or North Carolina.

[piisfish 135]

to paraphrase Ippo Fabbi, with his delicious italian accent : If you want to surrrvive, you have to trrrrackk fasssst

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[riggerpaul 1]

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I think he is looking for discussion on different techniques oversees. Like do some pull in place and others stagger openings with less emphasis on tracking techniques. I have not jumped oversees so can't compare. So Timmyfitz, if you have jumped in different areas of the world please enlighten with contrast or comparison, and enough of the 2nd grade geography.

Burke

I think I made it very clear, obviously not for you.

It is not happening with any frequency that anyone with any intelligence could point a finger and say "this is because people in Europe have bad tracking skills". The last two incidents are just coincidences not a reoccurring theme. When was the last time this happened for each country? How often does this happen world wide?

You can usually find a few people with poor tracking skills at just about any DZ, whether it's in Italy, the UK or North Carolina.

Actually, there really is room for 2 questions here.

First, is this a coincidence? Yes, I think it is. I certainly agree with you on this.

But a second question can still be asked without saying this is anything but a coincidence.

The second question is "Are there different techniques taught/used elsewhere?" Or, if you prefer, "Is tracking and separation taught the same way somewhere else as it is here?"

Even though the incidents are coincidental, it might still be good to understand if things are done differently when you go somewhere else.

If the answer is "No, they teach and do things the same as we do", then fine, let's drop it.

But if things are done differently somewhere else, I'd like to hear about it.

[pinkfairy 0]

Low altitude canopy collisions have nothing to do with tracking skills. Deployment collisions can have something to do with bad tracking skills, but more often with poor planning of the break off.

Skydiving is a small sport with a relatively small number of participants and few incidents. Small statistical material can sometimes make odd statistics. Remember the canopy collisions just after new year 2007?

So, yes, coincidence.

Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet.

I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you?

[Andy_Copland 0]

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Low altitude canopy collisions have nothing to do with tracking skills. Deployment collisions can have something to do with bad tracking skills, but more often with poor planning of the break off.

I do bigway jumps and have seen shitty tracking from both americans and other nationalities. Most often, the tracking itself isn't the problem, it's that people sink through when they turn to start the track and loose a lot of altitude on that.

Skydiving is a small sport with a relatively small number of participants and few incidents. Small statistical material can sometimes make odd statistics. Remember the canopy collisions just after new year 2007?

So, yes, coincidence.

Nope..wrong... Us Yuropians just can't track.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Nope..wrong... Us Yuropians just can't track.

Hey Andy, I thought you wuz from Britainland, not Urope.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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I've not observed visiting Europeans to be any better at tracking than US skydivers. Some good, some lousy, most somewhere in between.

I've seen jumpers with over a thousand jumps that delta at the ground on break off. When you mention better ways of tracking, they don't want to hear about it. "That's how I track" is a common reply. I want to tell them "Well, that's not really a track." I've had friends on world record jumps talk of their tracking leader not being any good, and finally they give up and just track over/past him on every jump.

In the meantime, I'll keep doing my flat track as far and as fast as I can, far above and beyond the fray. I tell people I track like a scared rabbit at breakoff, 'cause that's what I am at breakoff.

[tkhayes 124]

there's the old saying "That guy tracks like a set of car keys...."

I think it is everywhere; good and bad. I teach my up-and-comings that next to pulling, tracking is the most important skill you will ever learn. get out of Dodge when it is time to open

and it is a lot of fun too.

[mnealtx 0]

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Nope..wrong... Us Yuropians just can't track.

I thought that was why you went BASE....

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 2,381]

>Is opening separation given more emphasis in other parts of the world . . .

Opening separation is often a bigger problem in people coming from other parts of the world, but not because of any inherent lack of skill or attitude. It's just a lack of opportunity to practice.

When you are doing 5 different 100+ ways a year, tracking is critical, and if you track poorly, you'll get advice, coaching, criticism, threats and finally groundings (hopefully in that order.) If the biggest thing you ever do is a 20-way because your country doesn't have the aircraft to do 80-ways, then you don't get as much experience/advice/coaching/motivation to learn to track well.

[Andy_Copland 0]

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Nope..wrong... Us Yuropians just can't track.

I thought that was why you went BASE....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OIWLPEOJgU&feature=related

I think this dude needs to give a few tracking classes to the masses.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[Skydivesg 6]

This is a response I posted to kallend's statement in another thread.
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" a lot of skydivers, even experienced ones, suck at tracking. "

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I would have to agree with the above statement.

Our sport has coaching and "camps" for just about everything, other than the one skill that could and does save our life on any jump with more than two people. TRACKING

At my home DZ a friend of mine and I help out on Safety Day and we spend a good amount of time talking about and teaching how to properly turn out from a formation and then the finer points of tracking. This includes pictures and video of good and bad tracking.

I also go up with people (when asked) and watch and film them while tracking). And then debrief. I only do this if they are willing to spend the entire jump working on tracking.

Seldom a weekend goes by where I'm not talking one-on-one with someone about tracking. Often it's over a beer on the deck or at the fire.

For those of you who think you could improve your tracking skills, I challenge you to seek out someone you trust to have good skills and ask for help.

Then shut up and listen for as long as he or she is willing to talk.

When I see someone who has a kick ass track, I still go up to them and ask them to tell me about their technique. I then shut up and listen.

It's amazing what you can learn while your not talking.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[kallend 1,621]

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Low altitude canopy collisions have nothing to do with tracking skills. Deployment collisions can have something to do with bad tracking skills, but more often with poor planning of the break off.

Skydiving is a small sport with a relatively small number of participants and few incidents. Small statistical material can sometimes make odd statistics. Remember the canopy collisions just after new year 2007?

So, yes, coincidence.

The timing was the coincidence, but the problem exists. No doubt a Poisson distribution.

Would you care to amplify your comment about poor planning?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Andy9o8 0]

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I've not observed visiting Europeans to be any better at tracking than US skydivers. Some good, some lousy, most somewhere in between.

I've seen jumpers with over a thousand jumps that delta at the ground on break off. When you mention better ways of tracking, they don't want to hear about it. "That's how I track" is a common reply. I want to tell them "Well, that's not really a track." I've had friends on world record jumps talk of their tracking leader not being any good, and finally they give up and just track over/past him on every jump.

In the meantime, I'll keep doing my flat track as far and as fast as I can, far above and beyond the fray. I tell people I track like a scared rabbit at breakoff, 'cause that's what I am at breakoff.

Maybe someone should tell the Yu-ro-peens that "tracking" does not mean "atmonauti".

[JohnMitchell 14]

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No doubt a Poisson distribution.

Is that a graph shaped like a fish?