JohnMitchell 14 #26 June 8, 2010 Quote Maybe someone should tell the Yu-ro-peens that "tracking" does not mean "atmonauti". That's Italian for "crappy tracking", isn't it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sangi 0 #27 June 8, 2010 Quote Maybe someone should tell the Yu-ro-peens that "tracking" does not mean "atmonauti". Maybe someone should tell ameryyykanz that bent legs and arms in wingsuit flight is getting you nowhere fast."Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #28 June 8, 2010 Quote>If the biggest thing you ever do is a 20-way because your country doesn't have the aircraft to do 80-ways, then you don't get as much experience/advice/coaching/motivation to learn to track well. I think that's nuts - you can become a great tracker even if you only do 2-ways. You just have to commit to it and seek out good advice (like 'sg' notes). In every dive, I want to be "that guy at track off" that stands out from all the others due to a good track. The best compliment I ever had was overheard by my wife. We just completed a 20 way and 1 dot was cruising away from all the other 19 dots like they were standing still - someone turned to one of our (lifetime - was raised at the DZ) packers and said "wow, look at that guy", he responded "I bet it's Bill" I think that's neat. And that time it actually was me (other times it could be someone else). We have a handful of super good trackers at our DZ, and we tend to feed on each other to go faster every time. Really big ways can be another animal, where you stick with the zone leader for a ways, and then track like hell from the subgroup - that's more about large group dynamics and following instructions so that the traffic is predictable. If you can't follow the leadership on those-ways, take up another discipline. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,379 #29 June 8, 2010 >I think that's nuts - you can become a great tracker even if you only do >2-ways. Of course you can. Heck, you can become a great tracker if you only do solos. But if you are a poor tracker, you can do 2-ways all day and not get yelled at/grounded. You can't do that on 100-ways. If you're a bad tracker on bigger stuff it WILL get fixed one way or another. >The best compliment I ever had was overheard by my wife. Best compliment I ever got was from a whuffo, who saw me at breakoff from the ground and asked "where's he going?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elightle 8 #30 June 8, 2010 QuoteQuote>In every dive, I want to be "that guy at track off" that stands out from all the others due to a good track. The ability to track like a rocket is not a bad skill, especially on the outside of a big-way; however, if you're close to the base on a 100-plus way, you don't want to over track people in the outer waves. Tracking in groups is a skill too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #31 June 8, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuote>In every dive, I want to be "that guy at track off" that stands out from all the others due to a good track. The ability to track like a rocket is not a bad skill, especially on the outside of a big-way; however, if you're close to the base on a 100-plus way, you don't want to over track people in the outer waves. Tracking in groups is a skill too. oops - totally agree and just finished editing my comment prior to seeing yours. Really Big ways is about everyone doing what they said they would so to minimize surprises. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #32 June 8, 2010 Quote >Best compliment I ever got was from a whuffo, who saw me at breakoff from the ground and asked "where's he going?" isn't it sweet to be appreciated ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elightle 8 #33 June 8, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Quote >In every dive, I want to be "that guy at track off" that stands out from all the others due to a good track. The ability to track like a rocket is not a bad skill, especially on the outside of a big-way; however, if you're close to the base on a 100-plus way, you don't want to over track people in the outer waves. Tracking in groups is a skill too. oops - totally agree and just finished editing my comment prior to seeing yours. Really Big ways is about everyone doing what they said they would so to minimize surprises. ...and I totally agree that it's nice when somebody compliments you on your tracking. Got one of those comments from Karen Wood on the Virginia State Record in 2008. Got to admit my head swelled a bit . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #34 June 8, 2010 Later today, I'll give you a story about an organizer from a couple years ago and his comments about his Mad Trakking Skillz during a big way pre-brief. funny stuff, Kallend was there ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,618 #35 June 8, 2010 QuoteLater today, I'll give you a story about an organizer from a couple years ago and his comments about his Mad Trakking Skillz during a big way pre-brief. funny stuff, Kallend was there Couch Freaks!... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #36 June 8, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Nope..wrong... Us Yuropians just can't track. I thought that was why you went BASE.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OIWLPEOJgU&feature=related I think this dude needs to give a few tracking classes to the masses. I can't get youtube, sorry. So, is that guy wearing some of those super-duper inflatable tracking pants, or just a normal jumpsuit? (you know I'm just giving you shit, right?)Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites evilivan 0 #37 June 8, 2010 @ Bill and rehmwa - spotting tracking skills from the ground.... "If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation." David Brent Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pchapman 261 #38 June 8, 2010 Quote Nope..wrong... Us Yuropians just can't track. What are you waiting for... the government to track for you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites evilivan 0 #39 June 8, 2010 ...yes, "Tracking 2" should say "from the west and on level" (before the pedants wade in ) "If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation." David Brent Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rdufokker 6 #40 June 9, 2010 QuoteQuoteI am certain that the thread title will be considered inflammatory. The actual title should have been, "Is opening separation given more emphasis in other parts of the world, or is it just coincidence that there were two collisions this weekend on FS jumps in UK and Italy." That would not fit in the title block. Now that you know the question, please discuss amongst yourselves. All nationalistic sentiments and insults of American jumpers will, as always, be accepted gracefully. Kevin Keenan Titusville, FL, USA Does this happen every weekend in the UK and Italy? When was the last time it happened? You do know that the UK and Italy are two separate countries with different cultures, different languages and separated by a few miles? Coincidence...yes. You asked two questions and then gave a geography lesson. Your definition of clarity is answering questions with questions.Irony: "the History and Trivia section hijacked by the D.B. Cooper thread" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 4chewnate 0 #41 June 9, 2010 So how about that funny story??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites brettski74 0 #42 June 9, 2010 QuoteWhen was the last time you saw someone axed from an event because they tracked badly? It's funny you should ask that. I'm on an event right now where several have been cut and sent to do remedial tracking jumps because of insufficient tracking skills. That said, this is the first time I've seen that, but it's a start. Also, we're not in Europe right now, nor is this a European event. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites timmyfitz 0 #43 June 9, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteI am certain that the thread title will be considered inflammatory. The actual title should have been, "Is opening separation given more emphasis in other parts of the world, or is it just coincidence that there were two collisions this weekend on FS jumps in UK and Italy." That would not fit in the title block. Now that you know the question, please discuss amongst yourselves. All nationalistic sentiments and insults of American jumpers will, as always, be accepted gracefully. Kevin Keenan Titusville, FL, USA Does this happen every weekend in the UK and Italy? When was the last time it happened? You do know that the UK and Italy are two separate countries with different cultures, different languages and separated by a few miles? Coincidence...yes. You asked two questions and then gave a geography lesson. Your definition of clarity is answering questions with questions. I answered the question. Having a reading problem? From the OP: "Is opening separation given more emphasis in other parts of the world, or is it just coincidence that there were two collisions this weekend on FS jumps in UK and Italy." My answer: "Coincidence...yes." I hope that clears it up for you. If you have any more problems understanding the simple text written, don't be afraid to ask. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rdufokker 6 #44 June 9, 2010 Hey Kevin did you get your answer. I had trouble muddling through all the snide remarks and attitude. Apparently it was SIMPLY...coincidence. Great discussion, thanks. BSIrony: "the History and Trivia section hijacked by the D.B. Cooper thread" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites timmyfitz 0 #45 June 9, 2010 QuoteI had trouble muddling through all the snide remarks and attitude. That's only because you seem to have a problem with reading comprehension. It's OK though. If you have anymore questions don't be afraid to ask. QuoteApparently it was SIMPLY...coincidence. Yes, that is my answer. It may not be the right answer, it may not be the wrong answer but it was my answer. Would you like to add something to the discussion instead of just snide remarks and attitude? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #46 June 9, 2010 Quote @ Bill and rehmwa - spotting tracking skills from the ground.... we have one of those guys at the DZ also - not including many of the freeflyers that seem to track like that they tell me they do it "on purpose" to generate speed...... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pinkfairy 0 #47 June 9, 2010 Quote [ The timing was the coincidence, but the problem exists. No doubt a Poisson distribution. Would you care to amplify your comment about poor planning? I have a really good, flat track. I'm built for tracking, and go far and fast. Does that make me safe on every jump? No, not at all, I've had a person in my canopy, even, and I've had to go low on several occasions in order to clear my airspace before I pull. There are many ways in which poor planning can be a problem, I quit doing tracking jumps (you know what the freeflyers do, the entire dive is a deep, steep track) because they weren't safe. People would decide that "ooops, I'm far out, and I have no idea where the rest of the group is, I'll just dump at 4k". This is an extremely bad idea on any kind of jump, not even on a freefly jump. Another example is when people aren't clear about what "turn 180 degrees and track!" means. This is turn 180 from the center of the formation, not from the angle you are in in your slot. I've seen some interesting situations with two facing 8-way lines breaking off and everyone turned 180 degrees. Huge, big chunks of free space that no one were using, and people feeling that they were uncomfortably close when deploying. On the bigger stuff, the break off is very well planned, it has to be, otherwise we couldn't be doing it twice, but we get problems when people don't follow the plan. Having a track team leader who turns and leaves his track team behind before they have time to turn is just as bad as having one who can't track properly at all, IMHO. That way we get people all over the sky, some high, some low, and it's incredibly hard to see if you're right on top of someone if there's a lot of vertical distance. If everyone is on level, it's easy to find a free sector and just wedge yourself in, it's impossible if there's a thousand feet difference, and trust me, 1k quickly turns into nothing when the canopies open. There seems to be something that happens in people's heads when the dytter goes off, people go "I gotta getaway NOW!" People should also be aware of what they should do if things aren't going excactly as planned: "What do I do if there's someone below me and I'm still in my track when my second dytter warning goes off?" "What if I don't even make it to the formation and can't be part of the original breakoff plan? What if I go low?" "Am I OK with pulling a little bit lower in order to get clean air?", "Do I know how to steer my canopy before it's fully open?" These are as important questions on smaller jumps as on bigger. There should be a breakoff plan B. The bad trackers? I've been on a decent tracking team with someone who wasn't really a hot tracker, but we kept it together, and that was what made it work. And on smaller jumps, I just leave them behind. The problems listed above are more serious than not having a perfectly flat track, IMHO. Those are what made the real problems on jumps that I've been on. I hope this clarifies what I mean. And yes, you're right, there is a problem, I've seen a lot of hairy separation. What I also find when it comes to who are good trackers is: experienced and/or current skydivers make better trackers. Many europeans, including norwegians and brits don't jump in winter. So maybe the question that the OP asked isn't so bad after all: this is the time of the year when many uncurrent european skydivers start jumping again. Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet. I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #48 June 10, 2010 A little off topic but kinda relevant, I have noticed that Americans are not receptive to the idea of the discipline called 'Atmonauti', americans seem to simply consider it tracking. By that rationale the Euros shit all over americans at tracking bcause thay can perform vertical type formations at head level on the angle, where americans are still content flying a delta formation in a stiff track. I was on a tracking jump last year organised by a well know freeflyier (who I won't name), he insisted thet flying in a delta formation single layered was the best idea, some of us had been 'running the angle' for a few jumps previos and we felt like we were taking leaps backwards flying this type of formation. Head level multi layered 'Atmo' jumos take much more skill and anre much more fun that some stiff old school gig. these are just my thoughts however, but the Euros are all over it. head level is much more fun! "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Sangi 0 #49 June 10, 2010 haha at least someone realizes something.. good words Rhys. I'm not too surprised with americans mocking europeans for atmonauti.. I wouldn't expect much from conservative fossils.. "Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kkeenan 13 #50 June 10, 2010 QuoteA little off topic but kinda relevant, I have noticed that Americans are not receptive to the idea of the discipline called 'Atmonauti', americans seem to simply consider it tracking. Since we are discussing "tracking" as a means to obtain deployment separation following a jump, are you saying that Atmonauti is the best means to do this ? If that is your point, I think you may find disagreement here. (Although certainly not from the eminent skydiver, Sangi, who is an expert in the field of Atmonauti, and all other forms of skydiving.) Kevin K._____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? 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rehmwa 2 #31 June 8, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuote>In every dive, I want to be "that guy at track off" that stands out from all the others due to a good track. The ability to track like a rocket is not a bad skill, especially on the outside of a big-way; however, if you're close to the base on a 100-plus way, you don't want to over track people in the outer waves. Tracking in groups is a skill too. oops - totally agree and just finished editing my comment prior to seeing yours. Really Big ways is about everyone doing what they said they would so to minimize surprises. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #32 June 8, 2010 Quote >Best compliment I ever got was from a whuffo, who saw me at breakoff from the ground and asked "where's he going?" isn't it sweet to be appreciated ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elightle 8 #33 June 8, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Quote >In every dive, I want to be "that guy at track off" that stands out from all the others due to a good track. The ability to track like a rocket is not a bad skill, especially on the outside of a big-way; however, if you're close to the base on a 100-plus way, you don't want to over track people in the outer waves. Tracking in groups is a skill too. oops - totally agree and just finished editing my comment prior to seeing yours. Really Big ways is about everyone doing what they said they would so to minimize surprises. ...and I totally agree that it's nice when somebody compliments you on your tracking. Got one of those comments from Karen Wood on the Virginia State Record in 2008. Got to admit my head swelled a bit . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #34 June 8, 2010 Later today, I'll give you a story about an organizer from a couple years ago and his comments about his Mad Trakking Skillz during a big way pre-brief. funny stuff, Kallend was there ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,618 #35 June 8, 2010 QuoteLater today, I'll give you a story about an organizer from a couple years ago and his comments about his Mad Trakking Skillz during a big way pre-brief. funny stuff, Kallend was there Couch Freaks!... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #36 June 8, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Nope..wrong... Us Yuropians just can't track. I thought that was why you went BASE.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OIWLPEOJgU&feature=related I think this dude needs to give a few tracking classes to the masses. I can't get youtube, sorry. So, is that guy wearing some of those super-duper inflatable tracking pants, or just a normal jumpsuit? (you know I'm just giving you shit, right?)Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites evilivan 0 #37 June 8, 2010 @ Bill and rehmwa - spotting tracking skills from the ground.... "If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation." David Brent Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pchapman 261 #38 June 8, 2010 Quote Nope..wrong... Us Yuropians just can't track. What are you waiting for... the government to track for you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites evilivan 0 #39 June 8, 2010 ...yes, "Tracking 2" should say "from the west and on level" (before the pedants wade in ) "If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation." David Brent Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rdufokker 6 #40 June 9, 2010 QuoteQuoteI am certain that the thread title will be considered inflammatory. The actual title should have been, "Is opening separation given more emphasis in other parts of the world, or is it just coincidence that there were two collisions this weekend on FS jumps in UK and Italy." That would not fit in the title block. Now that you know the question, please discuss amongst yourselves. All nationalistic sentiments and insults of American jumpers will, as always, be accepted gracefully. Kevin Keenan Titusville, FL, USA Does this happen every weekend in the UK and Italy? When was the last time it happened? You do know that the UK and Italy are two separate countries with different cultures, different languages and separated by a few miles? Coincidence...yes. You asked two questions and then gave a geography lesson. Your definition of clarity is answering questions with questions.Irony: "the History and Trivia section hijacked by the D.B. Cooper thread" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 4chewnate 0 #41 June 9, 2010 So how about that funny story??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites brettski74 0 #42 June 9, 2010 QuoteWhen was the last time you saw someone axed from an event because they tracked badly? It's funny you should ask that. I'm on an event right now where several have been cut and sent to do remedial tracking jumps because of insufficient tracking skills. That said, this is the first time I've seen that, but it's a start. Also, we're not in Europe right now, nor is this a European event. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites timmyfitz 0 #43 June 9, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteI am certain that the thread title will be considered inflammatory. The actual title should have been, "Is opening separation given more emphasis in other parts of the world, or is it just coincidence that there were two collisions this weekend on FS jumps in UK and Italy." That would not fit in the title block. Now that you know the question, please discuss amongst yourselves. All nationalistic sentiments and insults of American jumpers will, as always, be accepted gracefully. Kevin Keenan Titusville, FL, USA Does this happen every weekend in the UK and Italy? When was the last time it happened? You do know that the UK and Italy are two separate countries with different cultures, different languages and separated by a few miles? Coincidence...yes. You asked two questions and then gave a geography lesson. Your definition of clarity is answering questions with questions. I answered the question. Having a reading problem? From the OP: "Is opening separation given more emphasis in other parts of the world, or is it just coincidence that there were two collisions this weekend on FS jumps in UK and Italy." My answer: "Coincidence...yes." I hope that clears it up for you. If you have any more problems understanding the simple text written, don't be afraid to ask. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rdufokker 6 #44 June 9, 2010 Hey Kevin did you get your answer. I had trouble muddling through all the snide remarks and attitude. Apparently it was SIMPLY...coincidence. Great discussion, thanks. BSIrony: "the History and Trivia section hijacked by the D.B. Cooper thread" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites timmyfitz 0 #45 June 9, 2010 QuoteI had trouble muddling through all the snide remarks and attitude. That's only because you seem to have a problem with reading comprehension. It's OK though. If you have anymore questions don't be afraid to ask. QuoteApparently it was SIMPLY...coincidence. Yes, that is my answer. It may not be the right answer, it may not be the wrong answer but it was my answer. Would you like to add something to the discussion instead of just snide remarks and attitude? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #46 June 9, 2010 Quote @ Bill and rehmwa - spotting tracking skills from the ground.... we have one of those guys at the DZ also - not including many of the freeflyers that seem to track like that they tell me they do it "on purpose" to generate speed...... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pinkfairy 0 #47 June 9, 2010 Quote [ The timing was the coincidence, but the problem exists. No doubt a Poisson distribution. Would you care to amplify your comment about poor planning? I have a really good, flat track. I'm built for tracking, and go far and fast. Does that make me safe on every jump? No, not at all, I've had a person in my canopy, even, and I've had to go low on several occasions in order to clear my airspace before I pull. There are many ways in which poor planning can be a problem, I quit doing tracking jumps (you know what the freeflyers do, the entire dive is a deep, steep track) because they weren't safe. People would decide that "ooops, I'm far out, and I have no idea where the rest of the group is, I'll just dump at 4k". This is an extremely bad idea on any kind of jump, not even on a freefly jump. Another example is when people aren't clear about what "turn 180 degrees and track!" means. This is turn 180 from the center of the formation, not from the angle you are in in your slot. I've seen some interesting situations with two facing 8-way lines breaking off and everyone turned 180 degrees. Huge, big chunks of free space that no one were using, and people feeling that they were uncomfortably close when deploying. On the bigger stuff, the break off is very well planned, it has to be, otherwise we couldn't be doing it twice, but we get problems when people don't follow the plan. Having a track team leader who turns and leaves his track team behind before they have time to turn is just as bad as having one who can't track properly at all, IMHO. That way we get people all over the sky, some high, some low, and it's incredibly hard to see if you're right on top of someone if there's a lot of vertical distance. If everyone is on level, it's easy to find a free sector and just wedge yourself in, it's impossible if there's a thousand feet difference, and trust me, 1k quickly turns into nothing when the canopies open. There seems to be something that happens in people's heads when the dytter goes off, people go "I gotta getaway NOW!" People should also be aware of what they should do if things aren't going excactly as planned: "What do I do if there's someone below me and I'm still in my track when my second dytter warning goes off?" "What if I don't even make it to the formation and can't be part of the original breakoff plan? What if I go low?" "Am I OK with pulling a little bit lower in order to get clean air?", "Do I know how to steer my canopy before it's fully open?" These are as important questions on smaller jumps as on bigger. There should be a breakoff plan B. The bad trackers? I've been on a decent tracking team with someone who wasn't really a hot tracker, but we kept it together, and that was what made it work. And on smaller jumps, I just leave them behind. The problems listed above are more serious than not having a perfectly flat track, IMHO. Those are what made the real problems on jumps that I've been on. I hope this clarifies what I mean. And yes, you're right, there is a problem, I've seen a lot of hairy separation. What I also find when it comes to who are good trackers is: experienced and/or current skydivers make better trackers. Many europeans, including norwegians and brits don't jump in winter. So maybe the question that the OP asked isn't so bad after all: this is the time of the year when many uncurrent european skydivers start jumping again. Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet. I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #48 June 10, 2010 A little off topic but kinda relevant, I have noticed that Americans are not receptive to the idea of the discipline called 'Atmonauti', americans seem to simply consider it tracking. By that rationale the Euros shit all over americans at tracking bcause thay can perform vertical type formations at head level on the angle, where americans are still content flying a delta formation in a stiff track. I was on a tracking jump last year organised by a well know freeflyier (who I won't name), he insisted thet flying in a delta formation single layered was the best idea, some of us had been 'running the angle' for a few jumps previos and we felt like we were taking leaps backwards flying this type of formation. Head level multi layered 'Atmo' jumos take much more skill and anre much more fun that some stiff old school gig. these are just my thoughts however, but the Euros are all over it. head level is much more fun! "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Sangi 0 #49 June 10, 2010 haha at least someone realizes something.. good words Rhys. I'm not too surprised with americans mocking europeans for atmonauti.. I wouldn't expect much from conservative fossils.. "Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kkeenan 13 #50 June 10, 2010 QuoteA little off topic but kinda relevant, I have noticed that Americans are not receptive to the idea of the discipline called 'Atmonauti', americans seem to simply consider it tracking. Since we are discussing "tracking" as a means to obtain deployment separation following a jump, are you saying that Atmonauti is the best means to do this ? If that is your point, I think you may find disagreement here. (Although certainly not from the eminent skydiver, Sangi, who is an expert in the field of Atmonauti, and all other forms of skydiving.) Kevin K._____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 2 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
rehmwa 2 #32 June 8, 2010 Quote >Best compliment I ever got was from a whuffo, who saw me at breakoff from the ground and asked "where's he going?" isn't it sweet to be appreciated ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elightle 8 #33 June 8, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Quote >In every dive, I want to be "that guy at track off" that stands out from all the others due to a good track. The ability to track like a rocket is not a bad skill, especially on the outside of a big-way; however, if you're close to the base on a 100-plus way, you don't want to over track people in the outer waves. Tracking in groups is a skill too. oops - totally agree and just finished editing my comment prior to seeing yours. Really Big ways is about everyone doing what they said they would so to minimize surprises. ...and I totally agree that it's nice when somebody compliments you on your tracking. Got one of those comments from Karen Wood on the Virginia State Record in 2008. Got to admit my head swelled a bit . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #34 June 8, 2010 Later today, I'll give you a story about an organizer from a couple years ago and his comments about his Mad Trakking Skillz during a big way pre-brief. funny stuff, Kallend was there ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,618 #35 June 8, 2010 QuoteLater today, I'll give you a story about an organizer from a couple years ago and his comments about his Mad Trakking Skillz during a big way pre-brief. funny stuff, Kallend was there Couch Freaks!... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #36 June 8, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Nope..wrong... Us Yuropians just can't track. I thought that was why you went BASE.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OIWLPEOJgU&feature=related I think this dude needs to give a few tracking classes to the masses. I can't get youtube, sorry. So, is that guy wearing some of those super-duper inflatable tracking pants, or just a normal jumpsuit? (you know I'm just giving you shit, right?)Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
evilivan 0 #37 June 8, 2010 @ Bill and rehmwa - spotting tracking skills from the ground.... "If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation." David Brent Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 261 #38 June 8, 2010 Quote Nope..wrong... Us Yuropians just can't track. What are you waiting for... the government to track for you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
evilivan 0 #39 June 8, 2010 ...yes, "Tracking 2" should say "from the west and on level" (before the pedants wade in ) "If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation." David Brent Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rdufokker 6 #40 June 9, 2010 QuoteQuoteI am certain that the thread title will be considered inflammatory. The actual title should have been, "Is opening separation given more emphasis in other parts of the world, or is it just coincidence that there were two collisions this weekend on FS jumps in UK and Italy." That would not fit in the title block. Now that you know the question, please discuss amongst yourselves. All nationalistic sentiments and insults of American jumpers will, as always, be accepted gracefully. Kevin Keenan Titusville, FL, USA Does this happen every weekend in the UK and Italy? When was the last time it happened? You do know that the UK and Italy are two separate countries with different cultures, different languages and separated by a few miles? Coincidence...yes. You asked two questions and then gave a geography lesson. Your definition of clarity is answering questions with questions.Irony: "the History and Trivia section hijacked by the D.B. Cooper thread" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
4chewnate 0 #41 June 9, 2010 So how about that funny story??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brettski74 0 #42 June 9, 2010 QuoteWhen was the last time you saw someone axed from an event because they tracked badly? It's funny you should ask that. I'm on an event right now where several have been cut and sent to do remedial tracking jumps because of insufficient tracking skills. That said, this is the first time I've seen that, but it's a start. Also, we're not in Europe right now, nor is this a European event. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #43 June 9, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteI am certain that the thread title will be considered inflammatory. The actual title should have been, "Is opening separation given more emphasis in other parts of the world, or is it just coincidence that there were two collisions this weekend on FS jumps in UK and Italy." That would not fit in the title block. Now that you know the question, please discuss amongst yourselves. All nationalistic sentiments and insults of American jumpers will, as always, be accepted gracefully. Kevin Keenan Titusville, FL, USA Does this happen every weekend in the UK and Italy? When was the last time it happened? You do know that the UK and Italy are two separate countries with different cultures, different languages and separated by a few miles? Coincidence...yes. You asked two questions and then gave a geography lesson. Your definition of clarity is answering questions with questions. I answered the question. Having a reading problem? From the OP: "Is opening separation given more emphasis in other parts of the world, or is it just coincidence that there were two collisions this weekend on FS jumps in UK and Italy." My answer: "Coincidence...yes." I hope that clears it up for you. If you have any more problems understanding the simple text written, don't be afraid to ask. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rdufokker 6 #44 June 9, 2010 Hey Kevin did you get your answer. I had trouble muddling through all the snide remarks and attitude. Apparently it was SIMPLY...coincidence. Great discussion, thanks. BSIrony: "the History and Trivia section hijacked by the D.B. Cooper thread" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #45 June 9, 2010 QuoteI had trouble muddling through all the snide remarks and attitude. That's only because you seem to have a problem with reading comprehension. It's OK though. If you have anymore questions don't be afraid to ask. QuoteApparently it was SIMPLY...coincidence. Yes, that is my answer. It may not be the right answer, it may not be the wrong answer but it was my answer. Would you like to add something to the discussion instead of just snide remarks and attitude? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #46 June 9, 2010 Quote @ Bill and rehmwa - spotting tracking skills from the ground.... we have one of those guys at the DZ also - not including many of the freeflyers that seem to track like that they tell me they do it "on purpose" to generate speed...... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pinkfairy 0 #47 June 9, 2010 Quote [ The timing was the coincidence, but the problem exists. No doubt a Poisson distribution. Would you care to amplify your comment about poor planning? I have a really good, flat track. I'm built for tracking, and go far and fast. Does that make me safe on every jump? No, not at all, I've had a person in my canopy, even, and I've had to go low on several occasions in order to clear my airspace before I pull. There are many ways in which poor planning can be a problem, I quit doing tracking jumps (you know what the freeflyers do, the entire dive is a deep, steep track) because they weren't safe. People would decide that "ooops, I'm far out, and I have no idea where the rest of the group is, I'll just dump at 4k". This is an extremely bad idea on any kind of jump, not even on a freefly jump. Another example is when people aren't clear about what "turn 180 degrees and track!" means. This is turn 180 from the center of the formation, not from the angle you are in in your slot. I've seen some interesting situations with two facing 8-way lines breaking off and everyone turned 180 degrees. Huge, big chunks of free space that no one were using, and people feeling that they were uncomfortably close when deploying. On the bigger stuff, the break off is very well planned, it has to be, otherwise we couldn't be doing it twice, but we get problems when people don't follow the plan. Having a track team leader who turns and leaves his track team behind before they have time to turn is just as bad as having one who can't track properly at all, IMHO. That way we get people all over the sky, some high, some low, and it's incredibly hard to see if you're right on top of someone if there's a lot of vertical distance. If everyone is on level, it's easy to find a free sector and just wedge yourself in, it's impossible if there's a thousand feet difference, and trust me, 1k quickly turns into nothing when the canopies open. There seems to be something that happens in people's heads when the dytter goes off, people go "I gotta getaway NOW!" People should also be aware of what they should do if things aren't going excactly as planned: "What do I do if there's someone below me and I'm still in my track when my second dytter warning goes off?" "What if I don't even make it to the formation and can't be part of the original breakoff plan? What if I go low?" "Am I OK with pulling a little bit lower in order to get clean air?", "Do I know how to steer my canopy before it's fully open?" These are as important questions on smaller jumps as on bigger. There should be a breakoff plan B. The bad trackers? I've been on a decent tracking team with someone who wasn't really a hot tracker, but we kept it together, and that was what made it work. And on smaller jumps, I just leave them behind. The problems listed above are more serious than not having a perfectly flat track, IMHO. Those are what made the real problems on jumps that I've been on. I hope this clarifies what I mean. And yes, you're right, there is a problem, I've seen a lot of hairy separation. What I also find when it comes to who are good trackers is: experienced and/or current skydivers make better trackers. Many europeans, including norwegians and brits don't jump in winter. So maybe the question that the OP asked isn't so bad after all: this is the time of the year when many uncurrent european skydivers start jumping again. Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet. I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #48 June 10, 2010 A little off topic but kinda relevant, I have noticed that Americans are not receptive to the idea of the discipline called 'Atmonauti', americans seem to simply consider it tracking. By that rationale the Euros shit all over americans at tracking bcause thay can perform vertical type formations at head level on the angle, where americans are still content flying a delta formation in a stiff track. I was on a tracking jump last year organised by a well know freeflyier (who I won't name), he insisted thet flying in a delta formation single layered was the best idea, some of us had been 'running the angle' for a few jumps previos and we felt like we were taking leaps backwards flying this type of formation. Head level multi layered 'Atmo' jumos take much more skill and anre much more fun that some stiff old school gig. these are just my thoughts however, but the Euros are all over it. head level is much more fun! "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sangi 0 #49 June 10, 2010 haha at least someone realizes something.. good words Rhys. I'm not too surprised with americans mocking europeans for atmonauti.. I wouldn't expect much from conservative fossils.. "Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kkeenan 13 #50 June 10, 2010 QuoteA little off topic but kinda relevant, I have noticed that Americans are not receptive to the idea of the discipline called 'Atmonauti', americans seem to simply consider it tracking. Since we are discussing "tracking" as a means to obtain deployment separation following a jump, are you saying that Atmonauti is the best means to do this ? If that is your point, I think you may find disagreement here. (Although certainly not from the eminent skydiver, Sangi, who is an expert in the field of Atmonauti, and all other forms of skydiving.) Kevin K._____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
