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keith82687

Back brace for hard openings? Need advice

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Hey guys. I've had back pain for a good while due to my other hobbies and I'd hate for skydiving to make it any worse.

I just bought my first canopy (sabre 1 190). I've heard they have a knack for opening...a bit less tenderly =P than other chutes.

I'm wondering if wearing a back brace would help protect my back from any further pain due to skydiving (hard openings especially). Thoughts? Suggestions?

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My first advice would be to sell the Sabre 1, you clearly bought a canopy you don't want. There are a lot of canopies that have slow and comfortable openings. Some examples are a Icarus Safire2, PD Spectre and PdF Electra.

A back brace will interfere with your freefall abilities because you can't utilize the full flexibility of your back.
Blue skies!

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+1, ditch the sabre1, do NOT wear a brace, you won't be able to have the full range of freefall if you cannot flex your back.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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I still jump a Sabre1 and while it's served me well, I would not recommend it for people with back problems. Although it can be packed to open reasonably comfortable: When packing, flake lightly/crinkly and not too flat/neat/slippery, roll tail AND nose tightly (but this one, do neatly) when you cocoon, use Dacron lines, use a bigger slider.... Keep in mind it's not guaranteed, and also that you might occasionally use a packer that may not pack it as well as you do. I made the mistake of letting somebody else pack it, and will only pack my own packjobs from now on.

For people with back problems, I really DO suggest that it is cheaper (health wise) to spend $1000 extra on a pillow-opening canopy such as Pilot, Sceptre, etc.

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I just bought my first canopy (sabre 1 190). I've heard they have a knack for opening...a bit less tenderly than other chutes.



That is correct, but that can be easily fixed with a larger slider or "pocket slider". See your rigger, or see someone who is familiar with this fix. Your Sabre will become a completely different canopy with one of these fixes.

http://www.pcprg.com/hardop.htm

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Ditto on the recommendation to changing the slider. I've had some back issues, and every once and a while my Samurai will spank me with a hard opening, for whatever the reason. I had a pocket sewn onto the leading edge of my existing slider, and now have soft smooth consistent openings, whether I pack or have a packer do it. Depending on the canopy, either a larger slider or pocket slider may be the answer, I'd talk to your canopy manufacturer about their recommended solution, and likely your local rigger can do the mods.

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i am jumping a 190 sabre 1 while im waiting for my container to arrive from aerodyne. i also had back surgery for a herniated disc back in march of 2011. that canopy is definitely not back friendly, no matter how i pack it that thing opens like a rocket. ive been slammed on it once, but all the other openings are uncomfortable to say the least. i jumped a safire 2 169 last weekend and that thing had the most amazing on heading openings, felt awesome on my back and i wasnt worried about having to make quick rear riser turns to pick a canopy free heading after the sabre spun me around 180 degrees. just a thought, you might want to look for something like a pilot, spectre or safire 2. youll appreciate it when you dont have to get back surgery later on
"its just a normal day at the dropzone until its not"

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Hi Kieth,
I'm sorry no one warned you away from that Sabre1. I refuse to jump them. Some have found happiness w/them by modding the slider, & rolling the nose. Personally, I'd opt for buying another canopy. You've only got one back, right? Screw up the pack job once, & you might never be able to jump again...

As for jumping w/a brace? I do every time. I wear a 6" leather weight lifting belt. I'm not a big guy. I can still arch fine. I jump w/a couple of guys who weight 190#s w/o gear. I keep up w/them. I'm only 160#s, dry. The belt helps hold the dominoes in line. I've had some hard landings, & some rough openings. Any one of those would have grounded me for at least a month had I not worn the belt. If that Sabre slams you? It won't help you much. It won't do much for axial loading. Meaning your disks are still going to be squeezed, vertically.

I suggest you rent a more appropriate canopy until you can sell that Sabre. It's just not for you. Some kid who is still superman will buy it from you cheap. You can smile fifteen years from now as you're still able to jump instead.

Good Luck.

Kenny

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Ideally I'd love to have a nicer main...and container (using a talon 2 from late 90's), but the whole reason I have those is that I found them in great condition (nice crisp sabre that the rigger said was in great condition and he had a hard time believing it had the 500 jumps on it that I was told it had. I was told it looks and feels more like 250 jumps) and, most importantly, at a price that a college student can afford.

In hindsight, I can't believe I was dumb enough to think about a back brace even for a day (well at least anything remotely hard). I should have known that it'd interfere with my arch, but that's why I ask people like you and those from my DZ. Thanks for keeping a beginner safe. Would a flexible, soft back support band or something be helpful and safe?

EDIT: @Pilfy You posted as I was typing this up so I didn't see your response. Thanks for the info on the belt and input about the sabre!

An injury would cost much more (not considering emotionally) than a new main, I know that; however, the reason I came to the forums is to see what kind of safe, reliable changes I could make to help the openings.

I've heard so many people say "you can pack to prevent it from opening hard" and, frankly, I don't believe them. I do agree that not packing it well would cause more frequent and harder openings, but it seems that as I do more and more research, what I keep hearing from sabre 1 owners/frequent fliers is that packing well will not prevent the much more frequent hard openings / harder regular openings of the sabre 1. Again, this conclusion I've drawn has no basis at all on personal experience, but on the accounts of sabre 1 owners, ex-owners, and frequent fliers of the sabre.

I really like the idea of changing the slider and I like that the guy has made many custom sliders and really did his research & testing. I don't much like purely theoretical fixes to my rig as a student =P If the slider is changed AND I switch to dacron lines, wouldn't that make it feel like a completely different canopy in regards to hard openings?

Thanks for the fast input guys. After reading this, I called my DZ and talked to a couple of experienced jumpers / ex-riggers and the consensus was: Ya, sabre 1s suck on the openings. Its worth trying especially since it's been done many times with seemingly good and consistent results.

When they are in and available I'll chat with the two current riggers at my DZ about this as well. Since my sabre 1 is in great shape and it's my first rig, I just rather pursue other options before trying to sell it and buy a new main, especially since the reading I've done indicates a high success rate.

I do realize that safety is the highest priority (especially in regards to back injuries), but if the issue can be fixed reliably I see no reason to simply replace it.

Thoughts?

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I have pretty bad back problems and had the same problem with sabre II's. I wouldn't even think about flying a sabre 1. I've been jumping a pilot for the last 200 jumps and haven't had an opening yet thats been hard.



This is my experience, too. Flew a Sabre-1 for a while when I got recurrent several years ago after a long layoff, then switched to a Pilot. I love the Pilot, and the openings are almost always very sweet. Now that I'm over 50, with a spine to show it, if I got a second rig, it'd probably be a Spectre with Dacron lines.

To the OP: it really is best to do your research before you buy, not after. I think you'd do well to sell your Sabre-1 to a newbie who's looking for an affordable first canopy and is young enough to weather the openings, and buy a canopy that's softer-opening, such as Spectre, Pilot or Safire-II, preferably with Dacron lines.

(P.S. - Having said this, I don't know enough about how well getting a larger "pocket" slider might help you, so I'll defer to others on that issue.)

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I do realize that safety is the highest priority (especially in regards to back injuries), but if the issue can be fixed reliably I see no reason to simply replace it.

Thoughts?



It can't be fixed. Replace it.

Any canopy can open hard on any jump. 'Fixing' one that's known to open hard will reduce those tendencies, but not eliminate them. Jumping a canopy known to open soft, and keeping it maintained to factory specifications is the best way to mitigate that risk.

Big Sabres have been known to break risers and snap femurs on opening. You can do your best to prevent that from happening, but with a big Sabre in your rig, the chance is always there, more so than with other canopies. I know your rigger said it was a great deal, but he was looking at a young college kid on a budget and cheap canopy with low jump numbers. Did tyou tell him up front that you have back problems and cannot deal with hard openings? I highly doubt it if the rigger still reccomended that canopy for you.

Don't be stupid and hide behind the money issue. If you can afford to jump, you can afford to not jump and save up for another canopy, plain and simple. There's a ragged out Spectre 190 out there somewhere that you can pick up for a song that will open so slow you'll be going for your handles.

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Like many have already said here, sell the canopy. Modifying the slider and putting new lines on it will cost you the same as selling the Sabre and using that money to buy another canopy.

With the Sabre you will get hard openings even if you do the modifications, probably not every jump. You can wait for that to happen and then save the money of 6 or more months being not able to jump because you fucked up your back and buy another canopy of the money you saved while sitting at home. I just wouldn't recommend this option because skydiving is just too much fun to do!

To back this up. A good friend of mine has problems with his back and he had a couple of hard openings and wasn't able to work or skydive for 4-12 months every time this happened. Please don't look for excuses to keep the Sabre because it's in great shape.
Blue skies!

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Thanks for the advice guys. I just want to make sure you don't have the wrong impression about what I mean about back issues. I'm not questioning someone's credentials or advice by this addendum, just seeing it if affects your answer.

All my back issues (confirmed by doctor, chiropractor, and xrays by both) come from muscle tension/knots and the alignment change is small and with a couple months of chiropractic adjustments, massage therapy (best treatment prescribed by any doctor I've had =P), and stretching most of, if not all the back pain and issues should be gone.

Outside of that I am healthy and in good shape at 6'0 165lbs. I'm providing all this information such that you know the details and context for my question.

With the type of back issues I've mentioned above, would your opinion or answer change?

Thanks again for your advice.

EDIT: Would my wing load be another reason to get another (smaller) main or do you think it'd be sufficient for someone's first rig?

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I have had a jacked up back for the past ~5 years. The army gave me lots of motrin, since I've gotten out and started going to the chiro on my own dime, I've seen a MAJOR improvement in my back (no/way less pain, more flexibility= better mobility, easier flying too).

If it hurts, don't rush it. I personally wouldn't jump a Sabre1 just because I don't want to risk it, but I also have a good amount of weight on my helmet that I don't need torquing my neck.

Just starting off with those back problems MAY make it harder to get past the muscle memory though, something to think about. It's far easier to learn it the right way, than to learn it the way that it doesn't hurt NOW, then re-learn it later, the right way.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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Keith,
What you call tension & knots, are spasms & locked facet joints. You're going into spasm because nerves are being inflamed/impinged. Your being tall & thin works against you w/this.

"With the type of back issues I've mentioned above, would your opinion or answer change?"

Not one iota...

Psssst: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/detail_page.cgi?ID=113504;d=1 Sell your Sabre for $400-$500 + $150-$200 you would have spent on a new modded slider = a damn near paid for already Spectre...

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With the type of back issues I've mentioned above, would your opinion or answer change?



I'm not a doctor, and don't know one bad back from the next. My adivice had nothing to do with your medical diagnosis, it has to do with your equipment selection.

The Sabre 1 is a mixed bag. Some of the opened fine, and some were slammers. Most were good for a firm smack every now and then, and the big ones might have been worse than the little guys.

You can dome the slider, pocket the slider, use a bigger slider, move the barke setting down a touch, etc, and come up with a pretty good canopy that will mostly behave. I would (and have) reccomended that option to many jumpers looking for a bargain priced used canopy.

However, these were all healthy jumpers with no reason to consider an occasional slammer to more than a nuisance. I would not reccomend that path to any jumpers with a history or back/neck problems, any jumper much over the age 35 or 40, or any jumper thinking about jumping a camera. In those cases, the possibility for doing real damage exists, and it's easy enough to just not jump a Sabre 1 if you're in any of those catagories.

It's just common sense. There are canopies known to open hard, canopies known to open soft, and canopies with no real reputation connected to their openings. Which one seems like the right choice for someone with back problems of any kind?

If a Spectre is too hard to find or too expensive, the Triathalon used to have a good snivel, and I think Aerodyne supports them with repairs and linesets (can anyone confirm that?).

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...If a Spectre is too hard to find or too expensive, the Triathalon used to have a good snivel, and I think Aerodyne supports them with repairs and linesets (can anyone confirm that?).



I have 200+/- jumps on a 190 Tri. One or two "firm" openings. Nothing hard.

It seems like they would support it, it's available new.

http://www.flyaerodyne.com/fly/triathlon.asp
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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learn to sit up before/when you hit the opening shock.

Throw the pilot chute, watch it and the bag lift off over your shoulder, start bringing your knees down. When you hit line stretch and that first opening shock, you should be in a sitting position, like you would sitting in a chair.

The spine then only takes vertical compression, which it is designed to do, instead of whiplash if you lay flat and take the opening that way.

save your spine, it can't be replaced. Better yet, find the parachute with the slowest openings know to mankind and buy it.

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IF your Sabre tends to open hard, nothing you can do will fix that. I thought I had my Sabre 190 tamed after a rash of brutal openings by going to a larger slider - my last jump on it that resulted in 9 broken lines, a reserve ride and some killer whiplash proved me wrong. I still have it rolled up in my closet, broken lines and all - some day it will make a nice tent or a pair of pants...

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

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IF your Sabre tends to open hard, nothing you can do will fix that. I thought I had my Sabre 190 tamed after a rash of brutal openings by going to a larger slider - my last jump on it that resulted in 9 broken lines, a reserve ride and some killer whiplash proved me wrong. I still have it rolled up in my closet, broken lines and all - some day it will make a nice tent or a pair of pants...



What were the dimensions of the slider you installed?

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IIRC it was 28x33 - I called PD and they made it for me, and told me to NOT jump it with the original slider that came with it. The original slider was (again IIRC) 21x28 with a pocket mod. This was 4 years or so ago so that could be wrong but it is in the ballpark.
At any rate, after being briefly knocked out by one opening, going home from the DZ black and blue every third or so weekend, and then 9 broken lines I had enough.
Its a pity too, as I absolutely loved everything about that canopy other than the openings...B|


As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

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And just FYI (and ask a Rigger to be sure) I have been told that the Sabre 190 and the Sabre 210 are two of the hardest opening canopies ever to be produced - granted, not all of them were like that but it seems to be especially prevalent in those sizes.
Great for low pull contests but not much use for that characteristic in modern skydiving...B|


As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

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