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douwanto

The New Skyride??????

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It's not worth me trying to sway your opinion of our business model, but I would like to clarify a couple of things. One, yes, we stand to generate some revenue from this, but in return, we will be marketing skydiving on the national level and ultimately increasing the skydiving exposure so everyone involved benefits. Advertising on that level does not come free. Second, you have to trust someone at some point. If you guys know anything about me and my operation, I have a pretty good reputation as an honest businessman. That is not going to change. Third, if you click the name of the DZ on any dropzone page, there is a link back to the DZ's website - http://proskydiving.com/skydive/il/locations/chicagoland-skydiving-center

I encourage everyone to educate themselves on our business model before casting judgement. I can be reached anytime to discuss this further, but would rather not use this medium. It's not the most uplifting place for me to visit when people are comparing me to SkyRide.

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It's not worth me trying to sway your opinion of our business model, but I would like to clarify a couple of things. One, yes, we stand to generate some revenue from this, but in return, we will be marketing skydiving on the national level and ultimately increasing the skydiving exposure so everyone involved benefits. Advertising on that level does not come free. Second, you have to trust someone at some point. If you guys know anything about me and my operation, I have a pretty good reputation as an honest businessman. That is not going to change. Third, if you click the name of the DZ on any dropzone page, there is a link back to the DZ's website - http://proskydiving.com/skydive/il/locations/chicagoland-skydiving-center

I encourage everyone to educate themselves on our business model before casting judgement. I can be reached anytime to discuss this further, but would rather not use this medium. It's not the most uplifting place for me to visit when people are comparing me to SkyRide.



I don't question your reputation nor honesty Doug. I personally do not see the advantage, or that this system is producing customers who are not already in the market, maybe that'll change with future marketing. That said, someone has to pay for marketing, whether it's the DZO directly or through you by sharing his student revenue with you.

This is America and as of now it's still basically a free market economy. That said, as long as you're not lying, cheating, etc., I say go for it. If you can convince your customers that what you're doing is of value to them, then I guess that's what the whole free market thing is about.

I still can not find a link from the Proskydiving page for any particular DZ pointing to that DZs web site. I must be missing it, maybe a screen shot with an arrow for me would help me find it? I can't prove a negative, but you can prove me wrong by pointing it out to me. That's how it works at home between my wife and I, I can't find anything around the house.

Martin
Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

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Doug, If I can make a suggestion - make the DZ names actually look like hyperlinks instead of text. I had no idea that the DZ name on those pages was actually a link until I started looking at the pages closer.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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Doug, If I can make a suggestion - make the DZ names actually look like hyperlinks instead of text. I had no idea that the DZ name on those pages was actually a link until I started looking at the pages closer.



Oh I see it now. It's a half truth, it was right there in front of my nose all the time, just camouflaged as text as opposed to a link.
Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

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It's not worth me trying to sway your opinion of our business model, but I would like to clarify a couple of things. One, yes, we stand to generate some revenue from this, but in return, we will be marketing skydiving on the national level and ultimately increasing the skydiving exposure so everyone involved benefits. Advertising on that level does not come free. Second, you have to trust someone at some point. If you guys know anything about me and my operation, I have a pretty good reputation as an honest businessman. That is not going to change. Third, if you click the name of the DZ on any dropzone page, there is a link back to the DZ's website - http://proskydiving.com/skydive/il/locations/chicagoland-skydiving-center

I encourage everyone to educate themselves on our business model before casting judgement. I can be reached anytime to discuss this further, but would rather not use this medium. It's not the most uplifting place for me to visit when people are comparing me to SkyRide.



First, You say you are "marketing skydiving on the national level", as has been said already in this thread, Skydiving in a regional activity, so why would someone in California need to see an ad for a DZ in, let's say Ohio or North Carolina, and what business does a DZ have marketing as such? The answer is They don't! If someone want's to schedule a jump in a state that is, for example, 2000 miles away, wouldn't they Google search for a DZ in the area they wish to go to? They don't need a bunch of websites for DZ's on the East Coast showing up in the search results in on the West Coast.
Secondly, you are concerned about us comparing you to sLyride, well,,,, I respectfully suggest that you step out of your box for a minute and look at yourself. We all know what sLyride has done and how they've marketed, so even though you appear to be attempting to do this in a more honest fashion, you're still the middle man. And being that you got exposed as a sLyride affiliate, well,,, that speaks for it's self. Had you never been affiliated with them, you would not be getting hammered as bad as you are. You brought that on yourself.
Refuse to Lose!!!
Failure is NOT an option!
1800skyrideripoff.com
Nashvilleskydiving.org

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That said, someone has to pay for marketing, whether it's the DZO directly or through you by sharing his student revenue with you.



Someone also has to MAKE money from marketing. If I were a DZO and I was going to pay someone for marketing I would rather give it to someone who is going to keep it in the sport versus an outsider.
"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

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would rather not use this medium. It's not the most uplifting place for me to visit when people are comparing me to SkyRide.



You don't want to be compared to them, you created a business to compete with them, and yet you continue to partner with them? You know who they are, you know what they have done and continue to do. You know their business model has depended on lying to your customers. You know what they are doing is wrong because you know they lost a massive lawsuit. You know that what they're doing is criminal behavior and they will probably end up in prison some day.

And you continue to be their partner in business and crime? If proskydiving can outdo them, PROVE IT.

Dave

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Our marketing plans do not include the internet. We want to sponsor events, take out magazine ads, TV ads, things that will get people thinking about skydiving and generate new business. If they want to Google a DZ near them, that's great, if they end up going to PROskdiving to locate a network DZ, that's fine too. Currently, the internet is the only place we are marketing our industry. That works well for people who know that they want to go skydiving. What about the people who don't even know there's a DZ 20 - 30 miles from their house?

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That said, someone has to pay for marketing, whether it's the DZO directly or through you by sharing his student revenue with you.



Someone also has to MAKE money from marketing. If I were a DZO and I was going to pay someone for marketing I would rather give it to someone who is going to keep it in the sport versus an outsider.



I am a DZO, and I do market for my business. I do not advertise nationally though, just stick to a 100 +/- radius. Most "advertising" such as web sites, and phone book ads are not really advertising in a true sense in my opinion as they're aimed at people who've already decided to skydive. Some of my pay-per-click ads come up for searches like "entertainment wichita" which are designed to move people toward skydiving. I also have a small billboard on a busy nearby road which generates new student traffic. Again, I'd prefer to do it myself as opposed to sending the money to Illinois, and hoping that Doug will do it for me somehow.
Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

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If you plans don't include the internet you are backing up.

That is like saying," I know I have this nice shiny computer but I think I'll whip out my pencil and slide rule on this one".

If you are actually still doing business with Skyride I have no use for you or your business model.

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What about the people who don't even know there's a DZ 20 - 30 miles from their house?



That's an expensive nut to crack! I could spend $100,000 in a small market like Wichita on TV, Radio, billboards, whatever, and there would still be a large percentage of the population who would say "I didn't even know you could do that around here."

I don't think that there's much general interest in funding national advertising. Just look at what a controversy USPA spending $50,000 a year is/was. One man's opinion, I'd rather send additional dollars to USPA for marketing then Doug in Il. In the end, I'll do neither, and stay local.

Martin
Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

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There's nothing good about what you're doing for anyone except yourself. I challenge you to find me one DZO who wouldn't prefer for you to not be in their market, and not be taking close to half of their profits.

Yes I said half. For anyone not follwing this, a DZO stands to make about 40% to 45% profit on an average tandem. PROskydiving takes a 20% cut of 100% of the price of every tandem they sell. Do the math - 40% profit on a $200 tandem is $80. 20% cut on a $200 tandem is $40, and a $40 cut on an $80 profit is half.

That's right everyone, Doug here thinks that letting a DZO have access to his own local customers is worth 50% of the profits. Local customers who already made the decision to skydive, and went as far as searching online for a local DZ. Without PROskydiving, these customers would have found a local DZ, and worked with them directly. With PROskydiving, they book through the website, and the DZO gets half of their money absorbed in the process.

Does anyone out there think there is any way to justify this? In person, over the phone, or via e-mail?
Lets' face it, if there was, he would have done it right here, 40 posts ago. Instead, he repeates the same boilerplate, corporate speak bullshit, and doesn't directly address any of these issues.

I don't have a dog in this fight aside from my love of the sport. In fact, I recently discovered that my own home DZ is in fact, a PROskydiving DZ. So when a local DZ goes out of business because PROskydiving has cornered the market and funneled all the business (minus half of the profits) to one local DZ, my DZ will be one left standing.

Never the less, I have taken considerable time and effort to illustrate how PROskydiving is terrible for the industry, and a danger to the future of the sport. In contrast to that, Doug here, who stands to profit immensly from this, has taken very little time or effort to defend his actions, and the reason for that is because he cannot.

Everything I have said is correct, and this is why he refuses to address it in public. He has no defense to the points I have made, and his inaction is what really validates my postion. I know if someone took the time to accuse me of running a business that was borderline criminal and a blight to the industry, and they were wrong, I would defend my good name, and that of my business.

I see no such defense as so such defense exists.

As an aside, I really wish I had a dog in this fight so I could persue it further than some online scuttlebut. If this was effecting my livelyhood, I would direct a HUGE amount of effort into derailing this situation post haste.

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What about the people who don't even know there's a DZ 20 - 30 miles from their house?



That's an expensive nut to crack! I could spend $100,000 in a small market like Wichita on TV, Radio, billboards, whatever, and there would still be a large percentage of the population who would say "I didn't even know you could do that around here."

Martin


Actually, Whichita is a small market and $100k would go a long way. Your most expensive cost would be the production on the billboards but you could get that lowered if you got someone to place your media that was experienced in the industry and good...like me;)

I understand what you are saying though even if your example doesnt work. What I was saying in my previous post was that if I was going to pay for internet marketing I would rather keep the money in the sport by paying another DZ instead of paying an outsider such as Google.

I believe according to JumpDudes definitions you guys are using a "middleman" by giving money to Google for CPC campaigns.
"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

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I'm not sure where you are getting your figures from, but the only time we take 15% is for any transactions that originate on PROskydiving's website. We feel that this 3rd party fee is fair for business that we send to a participating DZ. If a customer books via the DZ's website, the fees are 4.9% - 5.9% (based on estimated annual volume) per transaction and we cover the credit card fees. Also, for any phone orders that are manually entered from the DZ admin side, there is no fee at all.

www.PROskydiving.com/dzinfo

Doug

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Currently, the internet is the only place we are marketing our industry. That works well for people who know that they want to go skydiving.



Maybe you should stop posting here, as you continue to incriminate yourself.

What you're asying with the above is that you use your $75,000 website to attract customers already looking to make a jump. Out there in internet-land, it's your $75,000 website against the local DZ website, which 9 times out of 10 was put together gratis by a web-designer fun jumper. Once you have them, you'll hand them over to any local DZO willing to split the profits with you.

How is that a service to DZOs? How is that a benefit to the sport?

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I'm not sure where you are getting your figures from, but the only time we take 15% is for any transactions that originate on PROskydiving's website



According to your website, it's 20%, unless that DZ maintains a link to PROskydiving, then it's 15%.

Reservations that come from the DZ in the first place may be at the lower rate of 5% to 6%, however, what happens when the customer on a DZs website clicks through the 'required' link to PROskydiving? Bam! Right back up to 15%.

In the end, it still comes down to your $75,000 website against the local DZ website. With your volume and cash flow, it should be no surprise to anyone which site is going to appear on top of every search, and garner the most customers. Of course, this results in the majority of the customers being through PROskydiving at the premium rate.

Do you think we're stupid? You point out this non-sense like it's going to justify your position, but any businessman with half a brain can see the forest from the trees.

Nobody is doing business with you because they want to, they're in it because, by your own addmittance, they have to be, or risk losing everything.

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I believe according to JumpDudes definitions you guys are using a "middleman" by giving money to Google for CPC campaigns.



I spend less than $500 a year in pay per click ads. I started the pay per click ads to counter the Skyride PPC ads. Yes, $100,000 a year would go a long way in a market the size of Wichita, problem is that my DZ doesn't do a much more than that gross annually.
Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

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I'm not sure where you are getting your figures from, but the only time we take 15% is for any transactions that originate on PROskydiving's website



According to your website, it's 20%, unless that DZ maintains a link to PROskydiving, then it's 15%.



I don't see requiring participating DZs to put up a link as a deal breaker, they can bury it or hide it just like Proskydiving does.

I will reiterate my point regarding the requirement of 100% payment at time of reservation, that's not industry standard, but is obviously designed to give Doug his percentage cut of the whole $200 as opposed to 15% of $50. Did I say or hear "Predatory" somewhere previously in this thread?

My opinion is that competing DZs would be better served by cooperating with one another as opposed to the dog eat dog model. Doug here is simply praying on this mentality. The three DZs in Kansas do cooperate, that being the case more than likely we'll all three come to the same conclusion that what Doug is offering is not worth $30 per reservation. We're all three principled enough to say, "If it costs me a handful of students to stand my ground, then so be it."
Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

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I have nothing against Doug, not sure I even know him. But bottom line is, just like Skyride, if the DZOs would not deal with him this would go away. Why are some DZOs so convinced that everyone else is out to help them?



Spence,
I think it's just the opposite, they think that everyone else is out to get them. They get on board with booking agents out of fear as opposed to thinking "Wow, this is like free money! All I have to do is (bend over and) pick it up!"
Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

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chicagoland, I'm a little confused, hence my name, lol. Anyways, you state you're doing this for the greater good of the sport and that you want to advertise and spread word about skydiving, which is cool. Your website even says the following:

Quote

Our goal is to increase the exposure of all dropzones and promote skydiving as a whole. To that end, we provide free listings and website links to all US based dropzones. PROskydiving visitors can search for dropzones via state and zip code proximity which provides dropzones increased exposure and added link popularity with search engines.



But, on your website you incinuate that non-Proskydiving DZs or just that....not professional. It is not directly stated, but it is the way it looks, especially to non-skydivers who don't know any better.

Yes, it can be argued that you are merely stating that these DZ's are not part of your network, but let's face it....that's not the case and that's not what is happening.

Your website goes as far as listing (blacklisting in the eyes of non-skydivers) all DZs who are not in business with you and label them as "Non PRO Skydiving Dropzones". How does that look to outsiders?

I'm all about making a buck, but not at the expense of others, especially in a sport/activity that I love. Not only are you helping some DZs, you are hurting MOST DZs.

So what is the point of listing DZs that are not in business with you?

Edit: Added screen capture

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chicagoland, I'm a little confused, hence my name, lol. Anyways, you state you're doing this for the greater good of the sport and that you want to advertise and spread word about skydiving, which is cool. Your website even says the following:

Quote

Our goal is to increase the exposure of all dropzones and promote skydiving as a whole. To that end, we provide free listings and website links to all US based dropzones. PROskydiving visitors can search for dropzones via state and zip code proximity which provides dropzones increased exposure and added link popularity with search engines.



But, on your website you incinuate that non-Proskydiving DZs or just that....not professional. It is not directly stated, but it is the way it looks, especially to non-skydivers who don't know any better.

Yes, it can be argued that you are merely stating that these DZ's are not part of your network, but let's face it....that's not the case and that's not what is happening.

Your website goes as far as listing (blacklisting in the eyes of non-skydivers) all DZs who are not in business with you and label them as "Non PRO Skydiving Dropzones". How does that look to outsiders?

I'm all about making a buck, but not at the expense of others, especially in a sport/activity that I love. Not only are you helping some DZs, you are hurting MOST DZs.

So what is the point of listing DZs that are not in business with you?

Edit: Added screen capture



Is this an issue of semantics whether intentional or not? Maybe a change in the header to these links such as "Non proskydiving.com network participating DZs"?
Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

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Is this an issue of semantics whether intentional or not? Maybe a change in the header to these links such as "Non proskydiving.com network participating DZs"?



Either way, name change or not, listing all DZs who are not in business with ProSD is not good for the sport and is against what he has said; the whole for the good fo the sport routine.

Promoting DZs is one thing, but actively listing DZs who are not in business with you is another.

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It's a double edge sword.

If he HADN'T listed all the DZs then there would be a bunch of people here claiming that it's not fair to other DZs and that DZOs would have no choice but to join...

At least this way if someone winds up on the website they can see all their local options as opposed to just the DZs that participate.
"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

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Doug... I find two things concerning;
1. the hidden links back to the Area DZ's
2. The way in which you list the non-pro DZ's to woofos! See the attached screen shot. You don't even bother to keep the DZ and city the dz does business lined up. It appears to be an intentional mistake, kinda like an "accident on purpose".

I truely hope these are just startup glitches? As I said in my previous post... We'll be watching! At this point, so will the attorney general from the state I live in.
Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

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