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douwanto

The New Skyride??????

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I think if your doing all the booking on line do the age verification on line too.

It may not be an every day issue, but it will help to avoid those one or two asshats that explode on you (our your clients) because they booked a jump and upon arrival find out that Junior Trust Fund Silver Spoon licker can't!

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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Hey guys,

Sorry I made a mistake by using my business address and not where I do my skydiving training (earth- but mainly JumpTown) or Tunnel Training (earth - but mainly XP and Montreal)

It's good to keep an eye out for what is best for the skydiving community as a whole, I applaud those who stand up for unfair business tatics and will support any efforts to do so. As a business owner I would also caution individuals from making assumptions without properly research.

I am in process of editing my info on PROskydiving.com
as well as updating my website as it now just has a splash page.

Blue ones and best regards,

Dave Brown

Freefly Training Center LLC
23 Linbrook Rd, West Hartford CT 06107

Dave@FreeflyTrainingCenter.com
www.FreeflyTrainingCenter.com


Team Mandrin
USA USPA National Champions 4-way VFS
Current FAI World Record Holder 4-way VFS

Dave@TeamMandrin.com
www.teammandrin.com

+1 xxx xxx xxxx mobile
xxxxxxxxxxx skype

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I think if your doing all the booking on line do the age verification on line too.

It may not be an every day issue, but it will help to avoid those one or two asshats that explode on you (our your clients) because they booked a jump and upon arrival find out that Junior Trust Fund Silver Spoon licker can't!

Matt



That answer to that is quite simple, open the sport up to minors. There's a world of business to be had in the 14 to 18 age group, provided they are physically big enough to fit in the harness PROPERLY.

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There was no question there.

But since you brought it up.

Tandems with UUPT Gear is 18 in the US period.
Strong is younger (16?) and Jump Shack I do not recall.
USPA States 16 is the start point for them and their GM DZ's, period.

Now a question: Wouldn't it be better customer relations to clear that up during the online registration process?

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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Why use a middle man at all? If the DZO's would just work on their web presence, there would be no middle man and sLyride, being a "Middle Man" (scam) would either go away or be eaten up by the legal system.
Refuse to Lose!!!
Failure is NOT an option!
1800skyrideripoff.com
Nashvilleskydiving.org

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Why use a middle man at all? If the DZO's would just work on their web presence, there would be no middle man and sLyride, being a "Middle Man" (scam) would either go away or be eaten up by the legal system.



I think it's amusing you put (scam) after middle man. It's unfortunate you see this proven business tactic as a scam. What exactly is a middle man to you? Technically...i could call you the middle man. Afterall why give your money to DZOs when you could just give it to the TI?

Come on, everyone needs to get off it. SR put a bad taste in everyone's mouth but it wasn't the IDEA that was bad it was the way they ran with the idea and their business practices.
"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

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Why use a middle man at all? If the DZO's would just work on their web presence, there would be no middle man and sLyride, being a "Middle Man" (scam) would either go away or be eaten up by the legal system.



I think it's amusing you put (scam) after middle man. It's unfortunate you see this proven business tactic as a scam. What exactly is a middle man to you? Technically...i could call you the middle man. Afterall why give your money to DZOs when you could just give it to the TI?

Come on, everyone needs to get off it. SR put a bad taste in everyone's mouth but it wasn't the IDEA that was bad it was the way they ran with the idea and their business practices.



True enough and I took his post to mean that.

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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Why use a middle man at all? If the DZO's would just work on their web presence, there would be no middle man and sLyride, being a "Middle Man" (scam) would either go away or be eaten up by the legal system.



I think it's amusing you put (scam) after middle man. It's unfortunate you see this proven business tactic as a scam. What exactly is a middle man to you? Technically...i could call you the middle man. Afterall why give your money to DZOs when you could just give it to the TI?

Come on, everyone needs to get off it. SR put a bad taste in everyone's mouth but it wasn't the IDEA that was bad it was the way they ran with the idea and their business practices.



Ok, I'll be glad to reword that,

Being that sLyride is the scam it has been proven to be and to include Cary's own admission in court that he intends it to be a scam, not all middle men are scams, but, if DZO's would work on their web presence, there would be no need for a middle man.
Refuse to Lose!!!
Failure is NOT an option!
1800skyrideripoff.com
Nashvilleskydiving.org

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............. not all middle men are scams, but, if DZO's would work on their web presence, there would be no need for a middle man.



Are you offering your services as a "Web Presence" middleman? ;) I'm just wondering?
Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

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I think if your doing all the booking on line do the age verification on line too.

It may not be an every day issue, but it will help to avoid those one or two asshats that explode on you (our your clients) because they booked a jump and upon arrival find out that Junior Trust Fund Silver Spoon licker can't!

Matt



That answer to that is quite simple, open the sport up to minors. There's a world of business to be had in the 14 to 18 age group, provided they are physically big enough to fit in the harness PROPERLY.



Great idea. Lawyers need the work. ;)

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............. not all middle men are scams, but, if DZO's would work on their web presence, there would be no need for a middle man.



Are you offering your services as a "Web Presence" middleman? ;) I'm just wondering?



Nope, Never! I don't want anything to do with that shit! AND, there's no way for anyone to conduct any transactions through my www.1800skyrideripoff.com/dzs page. The answer is NO, I am not.
Refuse to Lose!!!
Failure is NOT an option!
1800skyrideripoff.com
Nashvilleskydiving.org

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I think it's amusing you put (scam) after middle man. It's unfortunate you see this proven business tactic as a scam. What exactly is a middle man to you?



Booking services, in this industry, are nothing more than a parasite which siphons profits out of DZs. A DZ is a local business catering to local customers, and a non-local booking service has no business 'inserting' themselves into those transactions.

Let's say Smithtown has two DZ, Skydive Smithtown West and Skydive Smithtown East. Let's also say that Smithtown will produce 1000 tandems per year out of it's population.

If left to their own devices, SSW and SSE will complete for and roughly split those tandems, and all of the Smithtown tandem dollars will go to those two DZs.

Enter the out of town 'booking service'. They have the ability to intercept web searches for skydiving in Smithtown, and grab those customers. Of course, they pass them on to a DZ in Smithtown, for a cut of the profits.

Neither DZ wants to give away a cut of it's profits, but it's the fear that the other guy will 'get into bed' with the booking service that leads either of them to 'get into bed' with the booking service. Even with honest sales tactics, and good customer service, a skydiving 'booking service' is borderline organized crime, using fear and leverage to force their way into a market they have no business being in.

The Smithtown DZs, with the addition of the 'booking service' are now fighting for a smaller peice of the pie. The 1000 tandems they used to see, now only produce the revenue of 750 tandems, but the two DZs are still conducting a combined 1000 tandems annualy.

A booking service works in markets like travel. Airlines, car rental agencies and hotel chains have a lot in common. They are all national business, and by their very nature, they never know the locality of their next customer. Therefore, if a booking service were to conduct a national advertising campaign, and provide a useful website that offers comaprison shopping and multi-use incentives, it would be of value to those nationwide companies.

DZ are not nationwide companies, and skydiving booking services are not providing any new, unique advertising to generate new customers. They are not offering the consumer a service by means of comparison shopping, and they don't have the ability to offer multi-use incentives as most of their customers are one-time shoppers. They have no value to the DZ, or the skydiving industry.

The service they provide is essentially answering the phone, and booking a reservation. A DZO can either answer his own phone and speak with his customers directly, or they're too busy jumping/packing/flying to answer the phone, in which case they can afford to hire someone to answer the phone. It's not rocket science.

What DZ do you know of that can afford to ship profits out of state to a company that doesn't create any new business?

The only benefit might be to a DZ that is complicit with the booking service, in that they might gain a larger share of the local business. However, if you consider that they give up a percentage of the profits to gain that business, they're taking two steps forward and one step back. The increase would have to be so significant that it would outweigh the fact that the DZ has to fly more loads, pay more TIs, and maintain more tandem rigs to make the same amount of money they could without the booking service.

Which brings me to my next point, lets say that DZ does gain enough market share to offset the profit loss to the booking service and the increased overhead to actually make more money, they are doing so at the expense of their local competition, who will be left with such a small market share that they cannot remain open.

These booking services should be viewed as dangerous, and are driving skydiving down a road where the number of DZs will be reduced, along with the profit per jumper at the ones who remain open. Who's to say which DZ will fall by the wayside, and which will remain in business firmly under the thumb of a 'booking service'?

What needs to happen is that tandem and student skydiving needs to go back to being a local business, serving their local population, and keeping 100% of the profits. If these DZOs starting 'booking services' want to make money, they can do so by operating a DZ, and providing the service of skydiving to the local population around that DZ. Period.

Anyone enganged in the business of a skydiving 'booking service', or attempting to start a skydiving 'booking service' should be viewed by this industry as a greedy, opportunistic parasite, who uses clever computer tricks to bend DZOs over a barrel. They should be ashamed of their blatant attmept to force their hands into the pockets of DZOs nationwide, who are already struggling in a business known for slim margins and high risk. Any jumper in their right mind should have zero tolerance for this behavoir, and have a zero tolerance policy regarding working for these people, or patronizing any DZ these people might actually run.

It's a slippery slope that has no end.

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And your taking all that time to write albeit, the truth, to someone who supports a skyride supporting dz. just like those from ASC who defend Ben & Cary, those who support places that are in bed with Skyride, will never care to hear your truth, they like the new fancy digs and the turbine fleet.

Your pissing into the wind, Dave.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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OK. It seems to me that you're making an effort to be an up front business. Good for you. Not everyone will like it. Granted! But after the whole slumride fiasco, we'll be watching.....

I've watched really good (larger DZ) manifesters run ragged answering phones while trying to also run manifest. For them, this may work. Smaller DZ's may not need this service. For them, this may not be a good deal. One man's garbage is another man's gold.

I applaud your desire to open and run this business. Not to mention your right to do so. Just be mindful not to get greedy and turn into a skamride clone.

Good luck with the business effort.
As always... IMHO B|
Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

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Trust me, we are very aware of the collective bad taste that SkyRide has left in the industry, but we have designed this system to be the absolute opposite of everything they are. I am a DZO, so I know what tools we need to be effective in bringing business through the door. I actually disagree with your theory that small DZs do not need PROskydiving. Most small DZOs have a cell phone attached to their heads all day long talking to customers, taking reservations, etc. This system will help minimize phone calls (in frequency and duration) while giving them a pre-packaged e-commerce solution to be competitive within and outside of the skydiving industry. Within minutes, any DZ can turn their static, informational website into a 24-hour business tool allowing them to be more attentive to the customers who are on the DZ.

We do not want to force this system on anyone, that's why we put links to all of the DZs under the "non-PROskydiving Dropzones" category. Everyone benefits from PRO. If a DZ wants to take advantage of all of the tools, they can. It's their call. I can only tell you how effective it's been for Chicagoland Skydiving Center. In 2009, more than 50% of our total revenue was generated from online sales.

Doug

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I think it's amusing you put (scam) after middle man. It's unfortunate you see this proven business tactic as a scam. What exactly is a middle man to you?



Booking services, in this industry, are nothing more than a parasite which siphons profits out of DZs. A DZ is a local business catering to local customers, and a non-local booking service has no business 'inserting' themselves into those transactions.

Let's say Smithtown has two DZ, Skydive Smithtown West and Skydive Smithtown East. Let's also say that Smithtown will produce 1000 tandems per year out of it's population.

If left to their own devices, SSW and SSE will complete for and roughly split those tandems, and all of the Smithtown tandem dollars will go to those two DZs.

Enter the out of town 'booking service'. They have the ability to intercept web searches for skydiving in Smithtown, and grab those customers. Of course, they pass them on to a DZ in Smithtown, for a cut of the profits.

Neither DZ wants to give away a cut of it's profits, but it's the fear that the other guy will 'get into bed' with the booking service that leads either of them to 'get into bed' with the booking service. Even with honest sales tactics, and good customer service, a skydiving 'booking service' is borderline organized crime, using fear and leverage to force their way into a market they have no business being in.

...

It's a slippery slope that has no end.



Almost the classic "Prisoners' Dilemma".
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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I am available to discuss it further and help you understand how we have created a tool to help DZs become more streamlined and profitable.



That's very forthcoming of you. I want to be clear that I an not accusing you or your business of the dishonest tactics of the Skyride crew. But even in the absence of that behavoir, I still have several key issues with the concept of a booking service in the skydiving industry.

1. How does your business advertise nationally to bring new business to every DZ in your program, and not just intercept those customers already searching online for skydiving information?

2. Does your business take a cut of every tandem you sell, and if so, wouldn't it be cheaper for a DZ to hire an phone operator for Sat/Sun, and have the existing staff answer phones during the week?

3. Wouldn't DZs be better off competing for customers only with other local DZs, and not also competing with a business whose sole task is managing and optimising search results in order to attract the largest number of customers?

Thanks in advance for any answers you provide.

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