virgin-burner 1 #51 August 4, 2011 Quote Quote Quote where its safe Safety and skydiving, this always makes me laugh hard inside When will people realize that if you truly want to be safe you should go bowling and even then you can have traumas P.S. I don't have anything against people who chose to do one over the other, it's your free choice, but again I'm not cool with the nazi rule enforcers I'm going to guess your wing loading is above 1:1 LOL well, even 80 jumps in 4yrs isnt really safe, either.. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
deltron80 0 #52 August 4, 2011 Quote well, even 80 jumps in 4yrs isnt really safe, either.. I may be a pussy, but I'm pretty sure I'll be around longer than that guy haha. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #53 August 4, 2011 Quote Quote well, even 80 jumps in 4yrs isnt really safe, either.. I may be a pussy, but I'm pretty sure I'll be around longer than that guy haha. not putting blame on you or anything.. just something i've noticed; just saying, it's something to consider. and with (your) those jumpnumbers, it's safer to stay on a large(r() parachute.. that's all! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #54 August 4, 2011 Quote Quote Quote well, even 80 jumps in 4yrs isnt really safe, either.. I may be a pussy, but I'm pretty sure I'll be around longer than that guy haha. not putting blame on you or anything.. just something i've noticed; just saying, it's something to consider. and with (your) those jumpnumbers, it's safer to stay on a large(r() parachute.. that's all! That can probably be said about more than half of the people jumping small canopies. That’s what this whole discussion is about. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #55 August 4, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote well, even 80 jumps in 4yrs isnt really safe, either.. I may be a pussy, but I'm pretty sure I'll be around longer than that guy haha. not putting blame on you or anything.. just something i've noticed; just saying, it's something to consider. and with (your) those jumpnumbers, it's safer to stay on a large(r() parachute.. that's all! That can probably be said about more than half of the people jumping small canopies. That’s what this whole discussion is about. Sparky not trying to be an ass, but how would you define that? WL, size, jumps per year!? possibly planform?“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #56 August 5, 2011 Quotenot trying to be an ass, but how would you define that? WL, size, jumps per year!? possibly planform? Like you I am not trying to an ass but I would say "all of the above". All it take is lacking or deficient in one category and you are in over you head. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #57 August 5, 2011 QuoteQuotenot trying to be an ass, but how would you define that? WL, size, jumps per year!? possibly planform? Like you I am not trying to an ass but I would say "all of the above". All it take is lacking or deficient in one category and you are in over you head. Sparky what would your propositon be then? if elliptical say over a WL of 1.5, more than, how much, 200 jumps per year!? that would be "relatively" conservative.. everyone's just complaining, but nobody seems to be willing to make a propositon; WHY!?“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,391 #58 August 5, 2011 >everyone's just complaining, but nobody seems to be willing to make a propositon; WHY!? Because then they get attacked, called names, threatened etc. Heck, you can find such an attack right here in this thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #59 August 5, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuotenot trying to be an ass, but how would you define that? WL, size, jumps per year!? possibly planform? Like you I am not trying to an ass but I would say "all of the above". All it take is lacking or deficient in one category and you are in over you head. Sparky what would your propositon be then? if elliptical say over a WL of 1.5, more than, how much, 200 jumps per year!? that would be "relatively" conservative.. everyone's just complaining, but nobody seems to be willing to make a propositon; WHY!? I’ve posted my suggestions several times, it might even be in this thread. No useful response And I didn’t suggest banning any type of gear or how it is used. I did suggest banning some of the people that use it. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marksman 0 #60 August 16, 2011 Quote Quote I think you missed his point. Pretty sure the OP was saying that for any given mistake, a lower wing loading typically results in less severe consequences. And that is just stating the obvious.. Kinda like a car has 4 wheels.. Pretty pointless, unless you have the IQ of a monkey.. I don't think is obvious. You see people in this sport are constantly finding themselves out of obvious situations. Sudden strong wind, double mal, canopy collision, canopy collapsing, dust devil, to low for canopy to recover, etc.... ALL situations where the people who were the protagonists 2 seconds before thought they were in an obviously normal situation until the mentioned type of problem manifested itself and lead to an injury or fatality. You see, I agree with you that it doesnt matter because the activity itself brings to the table an amount of risk thats implicit, using a smaller or larger canopy. Its part of the decision to be a skydiver to deal with those risks. BUT: the smaller the canopy, the higher the speed so.... the smaller amount of time or window of opportunity to correct any mistake even if caused by factors not under your direct control. but with a larger thus slower canopy, you endup having have more time, it buys you ALTITUDE, with more altitude you have far greater chance of being able to make decisions to save your butt. People should think about the choices they make about participating in skydiving way before thinking about WL. They should not fool themselves, I think that the necessity to compensate when using a higher loaded canopy with sharper, faster, more precise and often with room for a single definitive action during a problem does not come close to justify the benefits high WL brings. my two cents. take great care all. blues. Ricardo. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #61 August 16, 2011 QuoteI think that the necessity to compensate when using a higher loaded canopy with sharper, faster, more precise and often with room for a single definitive action during a problem does not come close to justify the benefits high WL brings. On one side of the coin... I would wager my experience and, say, a 126 against your experience and your 210 in any funky canopy piloting scenario you can come up with (a main-reserve entangled BOS not withstanding.) Given that, if it's okay by some measure for you to fly a 210 then it's even more okay by that same measure for me to fly a 126. After that the specific sizes and experience levels that are "justifiable" are a simple matter of negotiation. Now, on the other side of the coin... Most people who have been jumping small canopies for a quite a while made relatively little mistakes during their downsizing progression (fast downwinders, flying through predictable turbulence, turning way too low, tiling yourself into a corner and landing in a bunch of obsticles.) And because it all happened on bigger canopies, even though we didn't handle the situation perfectly the result was getting dirty and maybe some road rash. We learn those lessons the relatively easy way and we pile on the jump numbers to keep ourselves from making those kinds of mistakes again before we move on to higher performance wings. There's a certain level of swooping that really no amount of jumps is going to 100% prepare you for, but for every severe injury or fatality involving a jumper with several thousand jumps and a tiny cross-braced canopy I'll show you 50 severe injuries or fatalities involving a Katana/Crossfire and someone who was jumping it 500 jumps too early. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #62 August 16, 2011 I would wager my experience and, say, a 126 against your experience and your 210 in any funky canopy piloting scenario you can come up with... Quote Yer on, dead center a disk...in a silo. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #63 August 16, 2011 Quote Quote I would wager my experience and, say, a 126 against your experience and your 210 in any funky canopy piloting scenario you can come up with... Yer on, dead center a disk...in a silo. How tall is the silo and what's under the disk? /edited to add alternate punchline: I reserve the right to use my experience to not even try it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marksman 0 #64 August 16, 2011 champu, my take is not about my experience or even yours which of course I acknowlegde is far greater than mine on skydiving. btw, I agree on your point on negotiation and justification thats based on personal experience, but.... I'm trying to position regarding each one's confidence and real confort level on the equipment being used when the time to make fast, spot on decisions come. If this wasnt the case, we would have no worries about the timing to initiate a swooping manouver, people not respecting basic landing patterns, books like germain's that seek to bring sense in even very experienced skydivers, or even better we wouldnt have those nice videos we see from time to time on youtube where some skygod is doing something absurdly dangerous thats seem as a close call. You see, people tend to get cocky and push the envelope when they enter the confort zone of any activity, and its always because they got more experient and use an equipment thats more sensitive to input, motorcycling is a good example, you cannot stop people from buying a 190hp lightweight supersport bike, it does not matter how much advice you throw at some point they think they can handle it well, until proved the contrary. The ammount of attention you need to pour in and the need to re-establish new parameters is real, even for professionals and that is the aspect of high WLs that I see is more dangerous for each person (being mesuared by their own experience of course) and thats being discussed. ricardo. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #65 August 16, 2011 I agree that the level of precision, experience, and attention you need to pour in goes up very quickly as canopy size goes down, and underestimating the need for these resources is the root cause of many, if not most, accidents today. As I mentioned before, there's a level of canopy piloting that no amount of experience is going to 100% prepare you for, but there aren't that many people at that level. It's not "cool" or "cutting edge" to push your own personal envelope into well explored territory in a manner that's established as being stupid. But that doesn't mean you can't reasonably venture into that territory with proper coaching. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marksman 0 #66 August 16, 2011 totally agree. With the correct motivation for advancing and the head in the right place one can seize the best both side of performance levels can offer. At the end seems to be a matter of reaching and maintaining conscient levels of optimization and don't letting one's ego take precedence over reason. thanks for your comments. -R. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlindBrick 0 #67 August 17, 2011 Having watched more students and low-time jumpers than I care to remember bust themselves up with low w/l student canopies, I began to paraphrase the old Cub addage in my FJC: "This is a student parachute, one of the safest canopies in the world. It just barely flies fast enough to kill you." -Blind"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #68 August 17, 2011 Quote Having watched more students and low-time jumpers than I care to remember bust themselves up with low w/l student canopies, I began to paraphrase the old Cub addage in my FJC: "This is a student parachute, one of the safest canopies in the world. It just barely flies fast enough to kill you." -Blind have to rememer that one, i like it! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #69 August 17, 2011 QuoteHaving watched more students and low-time jumpers than I care to remember bust themselves up with low w/l student canopies, I began to paraphrase the old Cub addage in my FJC: "This is a student parachute, one of the safest canopies in the world. It just barely flies fast enough to kill you." -Blind Key phrase: "students and low-time jumpers" Not saying you are, but oftentimes people put the onus on the canopy when in fact it's the experience level. And that probably goes for both extremes of canopy size.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlindBrick 0 #70 August 17, 2011 Quote Key phrase: "students and low-time jumpers" Not saying you are, but oftentimes people put the onus on the canopy when in fact it's the experience level. Yeah, I use it to illustrate the point that having a student canopy/wingloading isn't a "get out of jail free" card and that the canopy pilot has to be an active and heads-up part of the equation. -Blind"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
