skyflower_bloom 0 #101 August 31, 2011 QuoteWait... two A jumpers cannot jump together? That poster was in Australia. I have an A and have done plenty of 2way with another A licensee, or 3-4-5 way with at least one other A or B license holder... it's just the different countries' rules. HTH, blues. R"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." Gandhi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybill 22 #102 August 31, 2011 Hi ride, $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.....get it??SCR-2034, SCS-680 III%, Deli-out Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
guitar_nut 0 #103 August 31, 2011 I'm currently a student at Mile-Hi working through their program. The coach jumps have been really helpful and follow a logical progression. They start out with maneuvers, fall rate, progress to swoop and docks, exits with another jumper, and finally let you jump a few four ways. The canopy course was awesome; I would have taken it even if it wasn't required. The instructors Stu and Justin give a lot of feedback on every jump and are very clear about what they expect from a safe canopy pilot. The coaches have ranged from AFF instructors to 200 jump skydivers, and all of them have done a good job of teaching the skills for their particular jump. I can only afford one coach jump a weekend, and I feel lucky I've got a job that lets me do that much. The big caveat is that you cannot do a solo jump once you've done the three solos they give you after AFF. So if I'm strapped for cash and want to do one jump just to stay "fresh", I can't. I have to jump with a coach until I have my A license. I'd recommend that if you're going to be a student at Mile-Hi, you save up enough so you can jump every week. I had to take a few weeks off and I felt pretty rusty my first jump back. On a side note, they got me into the Skyvan they had out last weekend for my latest coach jump. THAT was fun.-------------------------- That which can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rowet 0 #104 August 31, 2011 you don't have to jump with a coach if you are strapped for cash. just go to another DZ in the area (boulder or empire). Also there are some coaches with less than 200 jumps that have been coaching. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #105 August 31, 2011 QuoteThe big caveat is that you cannot do a solo jump once you've done the three solos they give you after AFF I'd jump somewhere else."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EOCS 0 #106 August 31, 2011 Damn thats rough... this makes me glad im in a skydiving CLUB not paying some DZO. Prices i see from sites DZ in the states are insane and this only adds to it. A jump costs me 21 EUR and 5 EUR gear rental (37 USD) I pack myself so thats not a factor. Back to topic, i just got my B License and most of the things i got signed off free but someone who had nothing else to do that jump. (still bought her some jumps thou) I think if u can its nice to buy the ''coach'' or person helping you their jump IF you can but by no means should be required. When im good enough to help someone i will as much as possible, makes for more people to jump with in the future :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #107 September 1, 2011 QuoteQuoteThe big caveat is that you cannot do a solo jump once you've done the three solos they give you after AFF I'd jump somewhere else. I agree. But having said that, I have to add that after giving this issue some more thought I now stand at a point that says: - Having a structured progression program has GOT to be a good thing overall. -I'm still reluctant to agree with the costs associated with meeting the requirements of having to have paid Coach jumps. $$$$OUCH$$$$My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #108 September 1, 2011 Quote- Having a structured progression program has GOT to be a good thing overall. I can think of two negative unintended side effects: 1. Cost prevents some jumpers from continuing. 2. The paid coaching structure prevents a mentorship program. I have had many students tell me that they just can't afford the program. And the continued seclusion of the students makes them feel alienated at the DZ (unless they are women.. then they have more attention than they need)."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybill 22 #109 September 1, 2011 Hi nut, That caveat..you "Can't" jump solo after your 3 solo jumps is "B-S!!!!!!!!" What if you want to do classic style jumps?? 'Kinda hard to do LT/RT/BL/etc with a coach hangin' on to ya'!! What if ya' wanna' go out long and practice "Trackin'!!??" 'Ya don't need a wing suit to get a good track goin' and they are fun! Also, Trackin' and pop a back loop. Get a track goin for a few seconds and bring your arms up and forward, look up and tuck your knees!! Do a quick back loop and pull out back into the track!! Good fun, good practise and a good confidence building manuver!! Also hard to do if a coach is hangin' on to ya'. Low on $$?? at least solo jumps keep you in the air and there are things you can do!! Another thing about this "Coach Only" stuff is there are other jumpers who may or may not have Instr., JM, Coach or othrer ratings but none the less are "Qualified Skydivers!!" and would gladly jump with you for no other reason than "Just For FUN!!!!!!!!!!" Isn't that what the he2xl this Sport is suppose to be about???SCR-2034, SCS-680 III%, Deli-out Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shattenjager 0 #110 September 1, 2011 That's totally bullshit, skydiving is already expensive and if you keep jumping with the "test scare" you will never enjoy jumping. If I were a coach I'd jump for free with students to keep the cost low, this is a bad way to promote the sport. I never enjoy skydiving until I did my first solo. Guess why many of my friends they don't want to come with me and try? Fear? NAH! MONEY!The mind is like a parachute: If you don't open it, it doesn't work. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
guitar_nut 0 #111 September 1, 2011 Yeah, I'm bummed about the no solo rule. I've got a list of stuff I'd like to practice before my A license test! Wind tunnel time :)-------------------------- That which can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shattenjager 0 #112 September 1, 2011 I hope it won't apply to you!! I'd rather spend time alone and practice to increase my awareness and canopy piloting than spend a lot of money on mandatory coach. Not that coach is not useful, if I'd have money I'd have my own personal coach, DZ and plane to improve, like the Crown Prince of Dubai, lucky him!!!The mind is like a parachute: If you don't open it, it doesn't work. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ridestrong 1 #113 September 2, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteThe big caveat is that you cannot do a solo jump once you've done the three solos they give you after AFF I'd jump somewhere else. I agree. But having said that, I have to add that after giving this issue some more thought I now stand at a point that says: - Having a structured progression program has GOT to be a good thing overall. -I'm still reluctant to agree with the costs associated with meeting the requirements of having to have paid Coach jumps. $$$$OUCH$$$$ While I agree that it is too pricey... I gotta say, so far I mostly hear the students giving good feedback on the structured progression.*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.* ----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.---- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrizZ 0 #114 September 2, 2011 Same here. Although I will say that the only one that seems iffy is the coach having to put you out for your hop n pops (so a student is paying the coaches slot), but then again seems like most students aren't really hip to spotting being important, especially at medium+ size dropzones flying aircraft on GPS. Anyhow, as others have said, there are pros and cons to both sides. I didn't have coaches for anything other than my RW jumps after AFF, but these students do get the benefit of having a debriefing based on what the coach saw with their own eyes and, at times, even video to use as well. As an aspiring coach, I'll say this new method means more oppurtunities for me to work with students, which I like in my own greedy way. Love the oppurtunity to share the passion and pass on some of the great nuggets of knowledge that were generously shared with me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyflower_bloom 0 #115 September 3, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteThe big caveat is that you cannot do a solo jump once you've done the three solos they give you after AFF I'd jump somewhere else. I agree. But having said that, I have to add that after giving this issue some more thought I now stand at a point that says: - Having a structured progression program has GOT to be a good thing overall. -I'm still reluctant to agree with the costs associated with meeting the requirements of having to have paid Coach jumps. $$$$OUCH$$$$ While I agree that it is too pricey... I gotta say, so far I mostly hear the students giving good feedback on the structured progression. True that.. And cost-wise, I really felt that it was worth it- it would have taken me many more solos or choosing to pay coaches anyways to get the A reqs met without the structured program with a coach planned in on every jump "level" til A. As I've said elsewhere, at least some DZs do a payment plan specifically so as not to break the bank- thus you pay a hundred or two hundred a month for a year, and obviously, you can finish your A much faster and use the extra $ on progressing as a fun/sport jumper... yeah I spent more than I should have to get my license as a broke college student lol but this way of doing it was the best of both worlds (affordable over time but good pace of progression) I do agree with what someone said about it sometimes preventing mentorship, and I do like the idea of up jumpers being able to mentor newer ones for the love of it, but I did have a few of the same coaches for many levels and that helped- I agree even in a coach-only progression through A-license, they should try to keep consistency going and match people, not just whoever is around, etc. Either way, I am with popsjumper on the thought that more resources and support in the early stages is beneficial, or at least it was for me..."You must be the change you wish to see in the world." Gandhi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bunkerup 0 #116 September 6, 2011 I have been watching this thread for a while and would like to add my two cents. (for what its worth) I just completed my A license this weekend at Mile Hi, now granted I have nothing to compare their system to, but I did appreciate the structured system. I realize there was a little added cost but it was fairly small (approx $240 over entire program), this number is assuming that I would be able to complete my A card "on my own" in only 25 jumps. I feel that they gave me a very strong understanding of the BASICS of skydiving, and now is the time that the mentoring phase of my learning begins. There has been a couple comments on this post that are not quite accurate. One is that you pay a coach to put you out on a hop and pop, that is not the case. Another is that none of their coaches/instructors jump for free to help out a student, when in fact on each of my group/coach jumps only one of the coaches were acutualy compensated by the dropzone. Overall I would give Mile Hi a thumbs up and my compliments to the instructors and staff. Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #117 September 6, 2011 QuoteYeah, I'm bummed about the no solo rule. I've got a list of stuff I'd like to practice before my A license test! Go to a different DZ."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #118 September 6, 2011 QuoteI gotta say, so far I mostly hear the students giving good feedback on the structured progression. But they have nothing to compare it to..... Almost every student thinks that their DZ was the best place to learn. This is more an emotional attachment than a scientific decision."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrizZ 0 #119 September 6, 2011 +1 on point 1, pops. As with the overall training methods (AFF, IAD, Static, Tandem Progression), it seems like different variables (aircraft, landing area, dz conditions, instructors available) may call for different approaches to the post-AFF portion of the licensing process. Having seen both the post-AFF (structured v not) systems in play, I'm having trouble figuring out where I fall opinion-wise. I did like the method that I did (where I was solo after AFF), but the debriefings that the students are getting on the structured system seems to be helping them progress, as would be expected. Is it worth the extra $ per jump for the student? Can't say since I don't have to pay it. I will say that I'm glad to have these coaches getting students out of the otter and onto the ground safely, and with minimal obstruction to other jump operations. With ~21 people in the air per load, I don't need a student on his own doing something stupid like tracking/backsliding up jump run, hanging out in the door for way too long, deploying at some unsafe altitude, etc. Should they know better? Yup. Do students do stupid things that they were taught now to do? Yup. This was far less of a concern when there were only 5 of us getting out per load, often times in only 1-2 groups outside of the student. disclaimer: I'm only a b-licensed jumper with ~200 jumps going through the coach course in 2 weeks (read: noob). Those 200 jumps have been at a cessna dz (tandem progression), eloy, and orange primarily, with some jumps a few trips to lodi, perris, and elsinore as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
guitar_nut 0 #120 September 6, 2011 So I finished up my last coach jump last weekend, and I have to say that I really dug the coaching experience. I know I paid more than a "traditional" DZ where a mentor would have taken me through a similar program. For me, I don't mind paying more if I'm getting good training (even if someone, somewhere else in the country, is getting that same training for free). $2-300 spread out over a lifetime of skydiving is chump change. I, of course, reserve the right to change my opinion as I gain more experience :)-------------------------- That which can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #121 September 6, 2011 Quote$2-300 spread out over a lifetime of skydiving is chump change. But it was not spread out over a lifetime, it was spread out over 10-15 jumps. Don't get me wrong, I think coaching is great (I have spent a ton on it over my life and I make money on both skills and team coaching). I just don't like it being mandatory to the point you CANT do solos."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #122 September 6, 2011 If I am not mistaken USPA defines a student as someone who has not yet earned their "A" license. Since the DZ's legal jeopardy is higher for students (I think we all can agree) than for licensed skydivers, I wonder if management has done this to push people to get their "A" sooner rather than later. I know we have found it frustrating to find that people whom we thought had an A or even a B turn out to have neither. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #123 September 6, 2011 Quote Quote Yeah, I'm bummed about the no solo rule. I've got a list of stuff I'd like to practice before my A license test! Go to a different DZ. +1 I actually ENCOURAGE at least a few solo's be done, by my "just off AFF" status students, and between their actual attainment of their A. No reason (in my mind) NOT to have/allow a student cleared for (supposedly) self-supervised, post-AFF (or Completed/Graduated Cat-E, cleared for Cat's F-H in the ISP) status not to. Yes, you will need to (and be required) to have at least some coach-present, coaching jumps between Cat-E matriculation and attainment of your A. That does not mean that absolutely ALL of your jumps between them, absolutely MUST be coached/coaching jumps! No Solos' (even) "allowed"? - - - - Not according to USPA ISP anyway. FWIW.coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #124 September 7, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Yeah, I'm bummed about the no solo rule. I've got a list of stuff I'd like to practice before my A license test! Go to a different DZ. +1 I actually ENCOURAGE at least a few solo's be done, by my "just off AFF" status students, and between their actual attainment of their A. No reason (in my mind) NOT to have/allow a student cleared for (supposedly) self-supervised, post-AFF (or Completed/Graduated Cat-E, cleared for Cat's F-H in the ISP) status not to. Yes, you will need to (and be required) to have at least some coach-present, coaching jumps between Cat-E matriculation and attainment of your A. That does not mean that absolutely ALL of your jumps between them, absolutely MUST be coached/coaching jumps! No Solos' (even) "allowed"? - - - - Not according to USPA ISP anyway. FWIW. +2. There's just nothing more glorious than self-supervised solos fresh after getting off student status. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jockeyshifter63 0 #125 September 8, 2011 I am currently in the Mile-Hi program and have two more coach jumps and a checkout jump for my "A". I am a bit puzzled why quite a few experienced jumpers think this policy is over the top. As a student jumper I love it. It is pretty apparent in this sport that the more I learn, the more I learn what I don't know. After completing AFF I did two solo jumps from 12500 AGL and one hop and pop solo from 5000+ AGL. After the exilarating rush and satisfaction of being able to do this without anybody with me I had to start the coaching jumps. That is where the real learning has been. The 5 hop and pop canopy class jumps count toward your "A". They are not "in addition to" as a previous poster asked. One of the things I personally like is I get to jump with several different coaches and each one teaches me something new but is consistant with the other coaches teachings. Every jump we work on something new; tracking, fall rate, linked exits, etc. I am appreciative that I am learning this from a coach and not from a well meaning "experienced" jumper that may or may not be giving me the correct instruction. I know that there is some extra cost involved but I would rather learn correctly than have to undo a potentially dangerous move. I would think that experienced jumpers would appreciate the additional do's and don'ts that we are learning, as our mistakes not only endanger us but can endanger others as well. I really do not think there is a hidden monetary agenda here. I truly believe they want their students to have as many skills as possible before releasing them on the rest of you. Even after the canopy class the instructors will still debrief me on my flight plan and landing when they happen to see me fly in. They do not receive any additional compensation for this. They do it to make me a better canopy driver. All the instructors are willing to help with questions or critique even when they are not on the clock. Anyway, thankfully we live in a country where you can exercise the right to spend your money with the vendor of your choice. I just happen to like the added attention I get from my vendor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites