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ridestrong

Coach Jumps Now Required Until 'A' License

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I saw the numbers (which I haven't gotten permission to re-publish, yet) and the DZO is making FAR less with the new program than he did with the old coach jump structure, even accounting in the increased number of coach jumps that will happen. So I'm convinced that this isn't about profit.



Call me stupid but I've rolled these numbers around in my head and on paper and unless the DZO is paying the Coach more than the student is paying, I can't figure out how the DZ is making less. Or, maybe the gear rental is being figured in on a daily basis instead of a jump-by-jump basis.

So, as already mentioned, enlighten us please.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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As a D, I can't even pay that forward until I get my Coach rating ...



Why do you say that? Of course, you can do that with a D...unless you jump at MH, I guess.



I could be wrong, but I think Spaceland also has something like that going...

I don't believe it's a monetary consideration though, more aimed at keeping under qualified people from bending up the 20 jump wonders.

Again, I'm not sure of the 'policy' but I was pulled off a newb jump a while back because I didn't have a coach rating and the n00b didn't have his A yet...another buddy went on the dive with the new guy and paid for his own slot, you know ~ like in the OLD DAYS! :D


I understand the desire to keep things 'safe' for the unlicensed jumpers, but on the other hand I know a coach examiner that can't really DO a lotta the stuff he asks of his candidates! :S

Though not current, I've held multiple instructional ratings for years...I don't have the time or desire to sit through a class to teach me how to 'coach'...who loses? The student does, I jump with N00bs all the time and have never seen the need to make 'em pay for MY fun! B|


And I know I'm not alone in that.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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As a D, I can't even pay that forward until I get my Coach rating ...



Why do you say that? Of course, you can do that with a D...unless you jump at MH, I guess.



I could be wrong, but I think Spaceland also has something like that going...

I don't believe it's a monetary consideration though, more aimed at keeping under qualified people from bending up the 20 jump wonders.

Again, I'm not sure of the 'policy' but I was pulled off a newb jump a while back because I didn't have a coach rating and the n00b didn't have his A yet...another buddy went on the dive with the new guy and paid for his own slot, you know ~ like in the OLD DAYS! :D


I understand the desire to keep things 'safe' for the unlicensed jumpers, but on the other hand I know a coach examiner that can't really DO a lotta the stuff he asks of his candidates! :S

Though not current, I've held multiple instructional ratings for years...I don't have the time or desire to sit through a class to teach me how to 'coach'...who loses? The student does, I jump with N00bs all the time and have never seen the need to make 'em pay for MY fun! B|


And I know I'm not alone in that.



Fortunately you can still jump with newbies even if you don’t have a rating like Dave said here.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=4097077;page=3;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;#4098584


.

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Fortunately you can still jump with newbies even if you don’t have a rating like Dave said here.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=4097077;page=3;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;#4098584


.




Unless of course a dropzone policy states otherwise.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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the DZO is making FAR less with the new program than he did with the old coach jump structure,



How is that even possible? If the price of a coach jump has not gone up, and there are more coach jumps required, then how is the profit less then previous?

Is it the fuel costs? Upthread somebody mentioned that the slot prices have gone up. In that case, requiring more coach jumps would indeed require more slots, and multiply the profit loss. However, the end result to all of this is increased cost to the student.

There is no way to justify making it more expensive to enter the sport. It's been gone over several times, but even if you try to do it 'on the cheap' you're looking at $4k+ to gety an A licesne and a 'cheapo' rig with no AAD.

Some people have compared that to the cost of dirtbikes, ATVs or, jet skis, but there is a huge difference between those sports and skydiving. Once you buy a dirt bike and trailer, your cost of participation is quite low. Gas to get you to your riding spot, maybe $20 to get in, and then a couple bucks set aside for maintenance, tires etc. On top of all that, you can drop the sport at any time, and recoup a good portion of your investment by selling the bike and trailer.

In skydiving, once you drop your $4k to get a license and beater rig, you still need to spend $100s of dollars a month on jumps. Keep in mind that at this point $200/mo. only buys you about 8 jumps or 2 jumps per weekend, not exactly setting the world on fire.

If you get licensed, buy a rig, and make 50 jumps, and then have to get out of the sport for some reason, you can sell the rig, but you're only going to get back $1500 of the $5k+ you invested.

The costs are just too high across the board to saddle potential jumpers with even more costs. If the DZO is making less now that with fewer coach jumps in the past, one of two things is happening - either the DZO is paying the coaches more, and lining their pockets on the backs of students, or the DZO is trying to make for what would be even greater losses if they left the coach jump requirement the way it was before. In either case, it's transfering the economic load to the student, and that hurts the sport.

Of course you don't think it does, but you should see if the DZO would share the books with you, and let you see the decline of the return rate for students as the jump levels get higher. Every one of those students who made 5, 6, or 7 jumps and never came back might have been due to cost. The money just runs out, and they don't call to say that or negotiate for a lower price, they just stop scheduling jumps. You see this all the time in flying, where it's $125-$150 an hour for a student to fly, and when they can't swing it any longer, they just stop coming. Much like skydiving, flying takes a flow of cash both during and after the initial training, and once that really sinks in, and people realize they can't keep up with the demand for cash, they move on to other things.

I'm going to assume that since you have had a personal discussion with the DZO that you are both a Mile-Hi jumper and somewhat friendly with him. Keep in mind that he will tell you what puts him in the best light, and yes, he does have the 'inside' info on what's really happening, but that doesn't mean he's going to fully or accurately share it with you. If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck, and this deal looks and sounds just like some sort of economic factor is being pushed right down the line onto the students shoulders.

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I've been in aviation, in one form or another, for a LONG time.

as it is with any business, they need to make a profit to stay in business (and I'm sure everyone will agree)

also, any costs of doing business is ALWAYS passed on to the customer.

the issue here is, like a lot of companies now days, they only see near term not long term. they will sell out to make their money now instead of the long haul.

as mentioned above, you gotta keep your customer in mind, they need to keep coming in and/or coming back to keep making money. you keep the customer happy, they come back and you profit. you do them wrong, they won't come back, or not as often as they would otherwise. Being the only game in town and then being arrogant about it doesnt go over well either.


Customer relations and Communication are two often overlooked aspects of doing business. Lots of places could do with some remedial customer service 101. They may have a good customer service policy, but is that what their front line employees are doing?

I don't think anyone is expecting a DZO to kiss the customers ass or give away their product; People want to be treated fair.
DS#727, DB Cooper #41, POPS #11065, SCR #13183, FA #2125, SCS #8306, HALO #309 SRA #5930

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What a unique concept. When we were coming up it was standard practice. ;)

I had under a hundred jumps when they used to send me up on slow days to chase 20 jump wonders. My coach training consisted of "Don't ever fly over their backs. You never know when they may pull. Have fun." It was interesting trying, and occasionally succeeding in catching those guys.

Yes, structured instruction is much more efficient, but I don't like the requirement to make all your pre-A jumps coached.

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It was interesting trying, and occasionally succeeding in catching those guys.



And it was surprising how much you learned about flying your body trying catch a 200 lb guy in gutter gear and an A-1 double zipper jump suit.

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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It was interesting trying, and occasionally succeeding in catching those guys.



And it was surprising how much you learned about flying your body trying catch a 200 lb guy in gutter gear and an A-1 double zipper jump suit.

Sparky




Yeah...try being a 240 lb guy in gutter gear trying to 'catch' a floaty butt!! :P

"I looked up and here comes this BATTLESTAR...latching onto me me as he went by"
~actual quote from my 145 pound college roommate, circa '78
:ph34r:










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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I recalled correctly because I had my 2011 SIM in front of me..
here it is word for word:



OK, that is what is says NOW.... you happen to have a 2008 SIM lying around? THAT is what I am talking about it USED to say something else. (IIRC)

I remember a stink being raised about it before and it was changed... I do not know what year.



2005 SIM 2-1-E-6

Students training for group freefall (S)
a. All student freefal training for group freefall jumps must be conducted by a USPA Coach under the supervision of an USPA Instructor.
b.All students engaging in group freefall jumps must be accompanied by a USPA Coach until the student has obtained a USPA A license.

No mention of D license holders at all. But it is waivable by an S&T A.

And yes, I keep all my old Parachutists and quite a few old Para-Gear and SquareOne catalogs too :P
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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As a returning jumper to the sport (T-10's in 1979) I greatly appreciate the opportunity to jump with a Coach. I passed AFF quickly due to a great AFFI and a bunch of tunnel time. I still hire my AFFI for every jump for several reasons. Each jump we dive a new plan, maneuvers, types of landing patterns, adjusting landing patterns, and canopy work. Each jump he plans something new for us to try/learn, last jump was long spots, before that rear riser emergency turns. We do landing work, full flairs, 2 stage flairs, wind shifts, other jumpers. I accept the fact that I am responsible for my own safety, and the safety of others around me. I will continue to utilize my AFFI for as long as I can because my life is important and you can not possibly learn all that is available in your AFF class. I hope to jump with this coach for a good 50 jumps, then move over to some of the other great coaches for a different prospective on jumping, and techniques with the ultimate goal of learning to wing suit, and fly a camera as the rules and the coaches advise. Perhaps it also makes me feel a little better knowing he is watching me do my ground checks, plane checks, spots, and EP’s each time I leave the bird. I missed a wave off on my pull last jump, and after a good long talk about the ramifications of that I don’t think it will happen again. With out his eyes and that would have gone without notice. I am fortunate enough to be able to have all my own gear, and be able to afford a Coach. I believe it will help me progress safer, and faster than with out a coach. Yes, I understand that with 15 current jumps I know nothing about the sport, this is just my prospective.

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I just called to confirm, it is indeed $28/$21 now [:/]



well cr@p... that means the "package" deal of tickets I bought about a month ago, is even a better deal... and less than the cost of a HnP...

unless I ask for a refund and take that money elsewhere... B|
DS#727, DB Cooper #41, POPS #11065, SCR #13183, FA #2125, SCS #8306, HALO #309 SRA #5930

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No mention of D license holders at all. But it is waivable by an S&T A.



Yep, that's what I remember. I *thought* it mentioned the waiver in the block, but I guess not.

The fact is that when the coach program came out the DZO's read the SIM as it was required to be solo or have a coach... That a "D" license was not enough.

This raised quite a stink. And I can recall at least once where a competitor with medals at the nationals was not going to be allowed to jump with his buddy that was off of AFF.

Then they changed the SIM again to spell it out.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Cheap flight to Phoenix! :ph34r:



Doesn't Skydive AZ have this policy in place as well?

Last time I was in Eloy I had people asking me about the policy at Red Rock Skydiving because they were told they would have to make all jumps with an instructor, or coach, until they had their A license requirements completed and paperwork submitted to USPA.
Blue Skies, Soft Docks and Happy Landings!
CWR #23
(It's called CRW, add an e if you like, but I ain't calling it CFS. FU FAI!)

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I do indeed oppose this as "required" BUT think it is a good idea- at that level, a coach really accelerated my learning. I did all my jumps, hop 'n pops excepted, w/ a coach. Yes it adds cost but I feel it was worth it.

My home dz has an A license program with AFF, the two hop n pops, packing, the proficiency card briefings, and the coach jumps outlined as levels with specific TLOs for each just like AFF (well, you know what I mean, similar format)- I think it is similar to ISP style or incorporates ISP? (Those more knowledgable came chime in)

BUT, should a student off of AFF and onto student status/coach jumps/cleared for solo/whatever, say that they really WANT to do some solos, they are not exactly encouraged, but certainly allowed from what I was told my dz staff.

Myself, I'd paid for the coach (another nice thing, they allow you to break it down month to month and pay the full A package over time, so the coach cost on each pre-A jump wasn't as big a deal) but since those jumps included coach slots already, I think it would have been a loss to do solos, and missed opportunities to get things checked off the A card.

Since the one thing holding me back from my A was canopy control- accuracy, I did solo hop n pops from like jump 26-31 till I got that down (somewhat lol) and got my A, but did not do a full-altitude solo until post-A license, and I was really happy with the way the program is/was structured.

I do believe students should be able to pick coaches and vice versa- it shouldn't just be assigned like that IMO, but I don't know the logistics or size of the dz and running it...

I know that with my earlier fall rate issues sometimes coaches (in my perception) did not want to jump with me, and there were a few I stuck with because they were constructive and could help me progress- just kind of a learning style thing.. so maybe assigning avoids "problem" students or really large or smalls students from having trouble getting their coach jumps or feeling like no one wants to jump with them, but it worked out at my dz with a more informal system (with some help from manifest, I am not saying coaches are never assigned, just less likely to be IME)

I am sure the money involved was an incentive too, but yeah- I was always able to get my coach jumps in, and usually with one of two coaches who did most of my pre-A coach jumps for consistency.

Anyways, this type of program worked well for me, though I think students should have a choice to do a solo or two if they want, and to choose their coach/vice versa... Another local dz does a program that alternates coach and solo, and that seems to work well for them. Any other thoughts? Newbie here, so take my opinion w/a grain of salt, just that I did a coach-only program pre-A and wanted to chime in w' my experience.

blue ones,
R
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." Gandhi

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To be able to jump with friends (of equal licence or above) or to learn freeflying you must have your B Licence. To achieve this you must have 50 jumps and also must also pass the B Rel (RW Training Decent Table) which consist of 10 stages.

Can you actually jump with friends after you do B Rel but before you finish the B License itself?
Parachutist Game IOS Android YouT

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I jump with N00bs all the time and have never seen the need to make 'em pay for MY fun!



What a unique concept. When we were coming up it was standard practice. ;)

Sparky



Kinda like spotting? Its becoming a dying art?
:o
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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